J.E. Sawyer On Fallout Firearms

[Killzig]

Theres a perk that lets you fire guns for less AP without being able to target.

Fast Shot, and it's a Trait.

There's also a bonus rate of fire perk -- N00B.

[Sammael]

Theres a perk that lets you fire guns for less AP without being able to target.

Fast Shot, and it's a Trait.

There's also a bonus rate of fire perk -- N00B.

The bonus rate of fire perk doesn't remove your ability to make targetted shots, IIRC.

[Rosh]

SeanDMan wrote:
Theres a perk that lets you fire guns for less AP without being able to target.

Fast Shot, and it's a Trait.

Okay, yeah. I'm not 500% on what perk/trait/guns do what or have what stats, but you got the general idea which is important.

There's a Perk that does give bonuses, but yeah, the traits in the RPGs except for one have some downside to them. Bloody Mess with Bad Luck (I think that's the one that makes everyone have more crit misses) is just pure comedy. Ever see a super-mutant shoot his own face off?

And Killzig - NOOB! ~

Yeah... but factor in ammo. Say you have a gun like the guass rifle. You can fire it, say, twice per turn which will rape quite well. But if you grab a guass pistol and a 223 pistol, you can fire the guass pistol once and the 223 2 or 3 times, doing almost as much damage and expending less of the expensive and rare ammo. This wouldn't matter in FO 2 since EC is so abundent, but it might in FO 3.

You do bring up a few good points, especially with ammo cost, yet there's also some more aspects that are also going to cause some chafing.

What if the pistol perks/traits/etc. are to be included or not in with akimbo fire? If not, then it might lend a bit more balance, but still can cause some potential problems.

Count in energy weapons into small guns, as JE sounds like they are planning, and you can use a plasma or laser pistol... while it may be exploitable, with work, I think it can be balanced so the ends justify the means, and do not completely nullify them.

Even up to energy weapons, with the skill involved with them being moved to single-handed guns, then it's going to open up a whole new level of raping when someone gets to that part. Range, as someone pointed out on the NMA forum, won't have much to do with it if you draw the enemy to you and lie in wait. But, to sum up this point, once the energy or higher one-handed guns are around, then it will be messy. Same stupid "dual-wield" shit that it seems to have spread over from the BioHype kids into BIS like some cranial STD via the Inbred Engine.

And here I thought that Bishop knew the setting and had a decent head on his shoulders.

It is true, that as they stand, there is no need to change it.

Well, it could be tweaked a little, but the changes for the hell of it are a bit much. I wonder if any more changes are going to get the d20 folks sniffing around with a litigous proctoscope at the ready.

But we are talking about a changed system. Right now, it sounds like instead of small, big, and energy, the weapons skills will end up as pistols/one handed machine weapons, rifles/shotguns/larger machine weapons, and heavy weapons.

Pretty much like the D&D games, and we know how stupid it is to "tag" or specialize in some of those weapon skills, don't we? Even a halfway competent DM would make sure that the campaign was a bit "accessible" by the characters, but instead they went instead with a "just toss shit in and hope they'll go with what we tested it for". That is how every BioHype and other IE game has played, presuming Ass Wind Dale 2 to be included. That is the only one I hadn't played so far.

So I think that, considering most of the pwnage weapons are rifles, pistols could use something to make them a viable option. Not that they will useless by any means, but they could be better, and I think we want as many options other than guass rifle rapage as possible.

Well, the thing that Sawyer keeps saying is that small guns aren't as powerful as big guns or energy. They can be, in many ways, but with making one-handed weapons inherently weaker, who the hell is going to tag that skill instead of waiting to dump it all into a bigger weapon skill? Whereas with small guns, there was the sniper rifle at the top end, along with the gauss pistol, .223, etc. Big guns had their own big and small items, but they were intended for the "huge, long range items" that it would take a bit of skill to learn. Then there was energy weapons, ranging from an energy pistol to the rifles. All three skills are feasable to tag. Yet, who is going to tag something for pistols when they could instead fake it for a little bit until they got to the rifles and other items?

Then there's those chimps at BIS who couldn't tell their ass from a light socket and somehow made "unplayable" characters in Fo1 and Fo2 also likely saw that "Small guns? OHHH!!! SO TI LIEK SPECCING DAGGARS IN TEH ISEWEND DEAL!!! LOLOOLO!!!!!11!!!! NOTHXBYEBYE" Yes, they are definitely shitbulbs.

And they supposedly pass for "developers". Kind of reminds me of that one BioWare twit "developer" that said that adding the ability for multiple paths requires exponentially more work.

BTW, thanks for answering me in the way you did. I was half expecting hostile reaction, and am glad you instead decided to talk points instead. (y)

I do talk points and I am quite kind most of the time. It's when people resort to posting ambiguous and, frankly, ludicrous bullshit like SuperH has, then I'll wave the bullshit flag at someone before I'll shove it up their ass. It's also kind of hard to just flaunt out what is and what isn't 50's sci-fi when I've stated a few times that I enjoy the space operas, pulp, and especially the radio serials of that time and earlier. I personally enjoy the radio serials, because you can just sit there and listen, letting your imagination do the work...much like a book.

[Killzig]

Right about the targeting but its still a perk that knocks off an AP on gun use. Just felt like fuckin with rosh. It was 5 in the morning on a saturday... ah well. I'll get you next time!! *shakes old man cane at rosh*

[SeanDMan]

Well met Rosh. I agree on most but...

Yet, who is going to tag something for pistols when they could instead fake it for a little bit until they got to the rifles and other items?

That's why a perk for pistols could be so usefull. As it is now, the Guass Rifle is better than the Guass Pistol, the Plasma Rifle better than the Plasma Pistol, the Sniper Rifle better than the .223 pistol... and then you take the "dual wield perk", and all of a sudden you can fire three times a turn. It turns pistols into a viable option to move through the game with. Rifles remains a viable option of course, and most would prefer the greater range, but for those of us who are working with an NPC, such as Cassidy, we let him snipe the enemy at range with a Guass Rifle as we sit back and haul ass on whoever walks within range of our plasma pistol. That way, instead of (as it is now) everyone being able to smoke everyone out with anything, we have specialists. This would work well, if you applied it to NPCs as well. Anyway, it's only 8 am so if I'm rambling, I shall desist now.

I personally enjoy the radio serials, because you can just sit there and listen, letting your imagination do the work...much like a book.

I used to have a radio station out here that played radio serials at 11 pm. Now they have some stupid talk show with Adam Corolla. BARGHJ!

[Spazmo]

But pistols already are a viable option, Sean, that's the whole point. They don't need any tweaking to work in FO3. At most, it might be interesting to reduce their AP cost by one to reinforce the idea of a small, light weapon that's easier to aim.

[SeanDMan]

As viable, but I don't see them as anywhere near as dominant as rifles.

[Sammael]

I often use a Gauss Pistol up until the very end of FO2. The high rate of fire outweighs the lesser damage, IMO, but only with THE FUCKED UP CRITICAL HIT SYSTEM (TM).

You people are forgetting that criticals are going to be VERY nerfed in Van Buren. With less frequent criticals and criticals that rarely deal lethal damage, pistols are going to be severely weakened.

[Killzig]

And I bet the animations will suck too. If BIS even survives the development.

[Saint_Proverbius]

This wouldn't matter in FO 2 since EC is so abundent, but it might in FO 3.

It's actually random how much is in the game since only one or two shops carry it and whether they carry it and how much is random.

Count in energy weapons into small guns, as JE sounds like they are planning, and you can use a plasma or laser pistol... while it may be exploitable, with work, I think it can be balanced so the ends justify the means, and do not completely nullify them.

And again, the problem with this is why use the gauss rifle if you could just use the pulse rifle? One thing that balances out the damage of the energy weapons with the gauss rifle is that you can just keep devoting skill points in Small Arms for the gauss rifle, giving you a much better ability to make aimed shots and get criticals. Without that mechanic, you just end up with two types of gun characters.. The pistol toting Gauss Pistoleers and the Pulse Riflers. That's what JE's streamlining will do.

It is true, that as they stand, there is no need to change it. But we are talking about a changed system. Right now, it sounds like instead of small, big, and energy, the weapons skills will end up as pistols/one handed machine weapons, rifles/shotguns/larger machine weapons, and heavy weapons. So I think that, considering most of the pwnage weapons are rifles, pistols could use something to make them a viable option. Not that they will useless by any means, but they could be better, and I think we want as many options other than guass rifle rapage as possible.

Here's the other problem with JE's idea. You go from a fairly balanced system to a simplified system that needs more balancing.

[DarkUnderlord]

That's why a perk for pistols could be so usefull. As it is now, the Guass Rifle is better than the Guass Pistol, the Plasma Rifle better than the Plasma Pistol, the Sniper Rifle better than the .223 pistol... and then you take the "dual wield perk", and all of a sudden you can fire three times a turn. It turns pistols into a viable option to move through the game with.

Are you really arguing that a pistol should be able to do as much damage as a rifle? If you are, then it's a similar problem to what I have with J.E.'s suggestions. He's putting all the big weapons into one category, then to balance that, he has to make pistols EQUAL to those bigger weapons in power.

Should someone duel wielding Desert Eagles really be able to clear out a room just as easily as someone using a minigun, or the more advanced weaponry of its day, the Plasma Rifle?

Pistols are pistols. The only reason you'd ever want to make them as powerful as the other weapons, is because you think wielding duel pistols is cool. There's absolutely no other reason.

[Saint_Proverbius]

That's basically what I mean by simplifying a balanced system and then rebalancing it. He's taken the core gun skills from Fallout, then reducing it down to two categories which will be unbalanced through part of the game at the very least.. Then he's rebalancing it with a bullshit gimmick, dual wielding.. It leads to other problems as well, like how do you balance dual wielding gauss pistols? There were many arguments about what was the most powerful weapon in Fallout 2, and the four big scorers were Gauss Pistol, Gauss Rifle, Bozar, and Pulse Rifle. So, if one gauss pistol was the most powerful weapon in Fallout 2, how the bloody hell would you balance having two of them going at the same time?

[Sammael]

So, if one gauss pistol was the most powerful weapon in Fallout 2, how the bloody hell would you balance having two of them going at the same time?

Toned down criticals.

[Saint_Proverbius]

Even without criticals, the gauss pistol was pretty impressive for the reason you mentioned.

[atoga]

With worse criticals, burst weapons will be hurt a lot.

[Spazmo]

With worse criticals, burst weapons will be hurt a lot.

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? It all worked before, butnow that they've decided to 'streamline' combat skills, they're just creating new problems for themselves. And when they try to fix this, they break something else, resulting in a sisyphean task.

[Sammael]

Even without criticals, the gauss pistol was pretty impressive for the reason you mentioned.

Not necessarily. The high rate of fire of the Gauss Pistol was useful because, with the Sniper perk, roughly 80% of the hits were criticals, and most criticals were insta-kill. Thus, the high rate of fire had the main purpose of producing more insta-kill criticals per round.

[Saint_Proverbius]

The same would be said with the pulse rifle and the Sniper perk. The gauss pistol actually does more damage than the pulse rifle depending on how many AP you have, without criticals.

[EN.]

The same would be said with the pulse rifle and the Sniper perk. The gauss pistol actually does more damage than the pulse rifle depending on how many AP you have, without criticals.

Um... not to offend, but doesn't the sniper perk require 80% in small guns?
Wouldn't that mean that you'd have to crank up 80% in small guns AND get high skill points in Energy Weapons to be able to do both, when with the gauss pistol you just need 80% in small guns and the sniper perk and you already have plenty of criticals? So basically, that would mean sniping with the pulse rifle would require tons of skill points... so no matter what, it still favors the gauss pistol based solely on criticals.

The gauss pistol does 22 to 32 damage and it's AP cost is 4. The pulse rifle does 54 to 78 damage and it's AP cost is 5. If we assume a character has 20 AP (a number divisible by both 4 and 5) then that means that guy should be able to get off 5 gauss pistol attacks should he not move in one round, and get off 4 pulse rifle attacks should he not move in one round.

The average of the gauss pistol damage is: (22+32)/2 = 27 damage
The average of the pulse rifle damage is: (54+78 )/2 = 66 damage
27 average gauss pistol damage times 5 gauss pistol attacks = a total of 135 damage
66 average pulse rifle damage times 4 pulse rifle attacks = a total of 264 damage

Should the gauss pistol wielder use gauss pistols akimbo and effective double his damage with the gauss pistol, he would get 270 damage out of the gauss pistol vs. the 264 damage of the pulse rifle. It's about even. If I got JE's system right, then a character would need to take lots of perks to be able to wield akimbo guns right, and would also probably suffer some penalties (such as the inability to make called/targeted shots) and so therefore, in a sense, it would be more efficient for them to do that amount of damage with the pulse rifle.

I'm not saying I like akimbo guns, but I just wanted to point out the mathematics behind it all.

-----------------------------

By the way, according to this thread: http://phpbb01.interplay.com/viewtopic. ... &start=225

JE is now considering ditching the one-handed guns skill and two handed-guns skill, and going for just one skill- the marksmanship skill, ala JA2. 12th post down.

Old School Roleplayer:
For the most part, your ideas are good (I don't mean to give you the impression that I hate all or even most of your ideas). The Firearm idea, however, is terrible. Even a Marksmanship skill is superior to a One-Handed Guns vs. Two-Handed Guns. At least in my mind I can see a justification for a Marksmanship.


JE: And that is why I'm now more in favor of this than having two firearm skills.

[Spazmo]

When you reach level 18, 24 or anything above, having 80% in small guns is not a problem.