JE wants their opinion(not yours)

[Saint_Proverbius]

<strong>[Game -> Update]</strong>

<b>Ibbz</b> has pointed me towards <A href="http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... 4063">this post</a> on the <A href="http://forums.somethingawful.com/">SA forum</a>, where <b>JE Sawyer</b>(aka <b>rope kid</b>), is asking <i>them</i> what they think about all his groovy kewl changez to <A href="http://www.interplay.com/fallout">Fallout</a>, like the <i>kewl new comboz0r attaxx</i> for <b>Unarmed</b>. Meanwhile, he has yet to ask questions like this on the actual fansites like <A href="http://www.nma-fallout.com">No Mutants Allowed</a> or this one.
<br>
<br>Where's the lub, <b>JE</b>?

[Ibbz]

Here are two combo examples:

Combo 1: Cross hits B, Backfist hits C, and Elbow hits A.

Combo 2: Roundhouse hits G, Hook hits F.

Next thing you know Ken and that fat Sumo wrestler will be making an appearance.

subject: the reorganization of skills, including the collapse of the three gun skills into firearms (previously discussed were four divisions and two divisions), the collapse of throwing into melee, the removal of gambling, and the collapse of first aid and doctor into medic.

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quote:
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I agree generally with your sentiment vylikas, but when I think about it, I have decided that only 3 skills per archtype would be better. That way, for example, if you want to play a pure diplomat, then you'd know which skills to tag. Not only does this mean a "tighter" group of skills, but it simplifies life for designers trying to make each archtype winable.
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Yep. That is one of the end results of the skill reorganzation I've been talking about. Right now, I have a list of 14 skills: 3 combat, 3 diplomacy, 4 science (including Outdoorsman), 4 stealth.

Wonder how much will actually be left of SPECIAL once JE has finished with it?

Its not as if Luck has any obvious use does it JE? It might aswell go. Hell, charisma was overated well, lets chuck that out. Why stop there? Intelligence isnt needed for our game.

{Notice with each step they seem to be getting closer to Brotherhood of Steel?}

[bloodbathmaster2]

ph34r teh ninja skillz of my post-apocalyptik mofo

[Mad Max RW]

I think it's because JE already knows the response he would get.

[peasofme]

i didnt want to say this but fuck je sawyer. hes not posting on fansites cause hes raping the game and hes ashamed. oh well, fo3 will only exist in our minds. lets face it, there will never be a real fo3. just some completely different game with the name fo3.

[Saint_Proverbius]

I think it's because JE already knows the response he would get.

I think that's about it. He wants someone to tell him, "YES! YES! OH MY GOD, YESSSSSSS!", so he posts these things where he's he's more likely to get that than, "Why? This, this, and this don't seem to make sense. This seems unbalanced. Oh, and why change this instead of improving it like this?"

[atoga]

You know what? I really can't see JE stooping to this. Not only is it a waste of time and hard to implement, but it adds very little depth to the game, which JE seems to be all for.

I certainly hope JE is just dipping his toes in the water instead of jumping in the pool.

[N]

Here's a small though:

To me, in a certain light, unarmed attacks and guns were, to a degree already balanced. Why? Ap Cost.

At the beginning of the game, you could make three regular unarmed attacks, and take a step (if you took/had 10 ap, which I can't ever *NOT* force myself ot take), or two targeted attacks and two steps (or a mix therein).

What fucked it all up? Easy -- they meddled with and didn't even out the rest of the AP costs for firing weapons in a quality manner. For example...why is the .44 magnum revolver one less AP to shoot (targeted and regular) then the others (not to mention that it did excellent damage, at close range)? Essentially, the first weapon to go for, is just get the .44 then, and use that until you get the rapid shot (?) perk to make guns one less AP. THEN, it becomes even faster....?!?

Here's how I would see it:

You do the same thing with unarmed attacks like you would with firearms. Jabs, simple kicks, etc -- those do less damage and cost less AP, then things like an uppercut, hook, roundhouse kick, etc, cost a bit more AP but have higher damage/special function.

Pistols (and perhaps you could seperate them based on size or power of the bullet) should do (comparitively) less damage, have less range, etc, than rifles -- but cost less action points to fire/aim/reload (for example, maybe it's 4AP for a normal shot, and 5 for targeted? Or, leave it the way it was...).

Rifles and/or shotguns are going to do more damage and (probably) be more accurate (with the exception, perhaps, of shotguns, or at least designate between a long barreled shotgun firing slugs as opposed to a sawed off double barrel), but cost more AP to shoot and/or reload. (5AP normal, 6 targeted, or 6/7...)

That might not be realistically perfect, but to me, at least, that keeps the game in a variety scope of why you would use, specialize, and switch between the different weapons.

Lastly, I think there's one important thing missing from all of JE's arguments on hand-to-hand combat...the biggest advantage in using unarmed combat against something with a gun or otherwise, would be to grapple/wrestle him, and either take his weapon away, or at least keep him tangled up to the point where he can't shoot at you until he gets away, or has a chance of hurting himself if he chooses to fire the weapon while someone's trying to wrestle and throw them around. (Kind of a similar idea to something how grapple works in D&D3e (although even that could use some tweaking/balancing)).

What are some thoughs on all of that?

[Spazmo]

This is bad news for SPECIAL. Well, then again, Arcanum had a pretty mediocre rule sytem and it still was great because of the quality of the setting, NPC interaction, quests and writing. Maybe JE and his team will still make a fantastic game with compelling characters and story, even if the rule system leaves something to be desired!


...


Yeah, we're doomed.

[N]

...Arcanum had a pretty mediocre rule sytem...

I don't know...I must be the only person who thought that Arcanum was *terrible* in that regard. I had a maxed out, literally *MAXED* out character in terms of combat (other than guns), by the end of the second town. Which meant for the rest of the game, the only combat improvement I had to look forward to, was equipment.

[Spazmo]

Well, yeah. I was kind of being forgiving there because I liked Arcanum. The rule system and combat were garbage.

[N]

Awesome concept/ideas....but just a horrible execution IMO. I tried to like it, I really did...but the thing there, was that I felt my character was already too stagnated (and the story as of yet not compelling enough) for me to play much more of it. Which I didn't. I just couldn't spend more time on a game that had essentially made my character (or it's concept) finished at such an early stage.

[Saint_Proverbius]

It's funny you should mention Arcanum, since that seems to be what JE Sawyer is doing, converting SPECIAL in to STEAM. After all, STEAM was very, very reduced in terms of a skill set for things like combat, only have one skill for a category.

I think one of the big problems here is that JE Sawyer is wanting to flex his creative muscles, since this is the first game that will let him basically make his own character system. There is no one like Wizards of the Coast watching over him, telling him to stop fucking up the character system, so JE's simply going hog wild on making as many changes as possible in SPECIAL to fit his desire to make something new after years and years of just dealing with someone else's design work.

Really, the truly sad part of all this is that Fallout Tactics will be the last game to use Fallout's SPECIAL implimentation because of this. That's just a real shame.

[N]

I'll agree with that for the most part, Proverbius.

I still contend that it's not the SPECIAL system, or even the "Fallout bible" that needs work -- it's the actual game, content, location, etc that can be tweaked and built to utilize the system properly.

Again, I'll flat out say it -- I thought Arcanum sucked. It burned me up something fierce to see it get all these awards when I honeslty thought the game was about as balanced as...well not balanced at all. It was unfettered trash.

Again, as mentioned above -- the SPECIAL system, especially the turn based SPECIAL system, works, but once you have a clear grasp, concept, and mastery of the way the system works, you need to make sure you craft the world accordingly to make it balanced and provide a quality range of gameplay in all areas and the sub areas wherein. (Like, for example, the ridiculous "-1 AP for the Magnum and the Gauss pistol....*why*? There's NO shortcoming to either one!)

The same goes for hand to hand combat. It's not the system, it's the game/levels. At least in Fallout(1,2), and to a lesser extent in 2, there was still the problem of aggroing/alerting too much of the town/people during silent attacks. It wasn't always a problem as sometimes it would work stealthily. But that's another inherent product of the 'game' that needed to be worked on -- slashing a guy's throat with a knife shouldn't alert the town, or maybe even the guy in the next room, whereas a shotgun is probably going to make a lot of noise.

Again -- don't worry as much about the rule system, worry more about how, what, and why your game (and it's rules, functionality, and items (and the way you have their attributes)) correctly UTILIZES the system.

[Petey_the_Skid]

i didnt want to say this but fuck je sawyer. hes not posting on fansites cause hes raping the game and hes ashamed. oh well, fo3 will only exist in our minds. lets face it, there will never be a real fo3. just some completely different game with the name fo3.

He doesn't post on fansites because of idiots like you. At least folks like Doomsayer and Saint Proverbius have reasons for what they post, but this kind of fanatic, hostile irrationality is pathetic.

[Franz Schubert]

Maybe JE and his team will still make a fantastic game with compelling characters and story, even if the rule system leaves something to be desired!

Damn you! You have given me hope again, and that means I have to have my hopes shot down again by J.E.! It won't be long now until I realize that the hope was in vain...

Again -- don't worry as much about the rule system, worry more about how, what, and why your game (and it's rules, functionality, and items (and the way you have their attributes)) correctly UTILIZES the system.

J.E. is tailoring his system to work marvelously with FO:BoS-type gameplay. Think if a game had an implementation (story/setting/theme/non-linear plot/etc.) as complex and with as much depth as FO1&2. Do you think that game could possibly utilize the "dumbed down" version of SPECIAL that J.E. is making? No, a game that complex requires a ruleset that is equally complex. There is no way we are going to get a game the quality of FO1&2.

See?? My hopes have been shattered once again.

[Franz Schubert]

Next thing you know Ken and that fat Sumo wrestler will be making an appearance.

Street Fighter was a great game. It's a classic! And of course Fallout is a great classic. So if they make a game that combines different elements of the two great classics, wouldn't the game HAVE to be a great classic? It's a good thing J.E. obviously realizes this. Maybe he'll even throw in bits of other great games like The Incredible Machine, F-Zero, and Tribes!!!

[Saint_Proverbius]

He doesn't post on fansites because of idiots like you. At least folks like Doomsayer and Saint Proverbius have reasons for what they post, but this kind of fanatic, hostile irrationality is pathetic.

No, I still think it's for validation purposes. I just got this email from some twit:

• > Mmm, that's backward. He doesn't want fawning yes-man feedback, and -- have
  > you read the SA thread? -- he doesn't get it. (Ajaarg: "I am vehemently
  > against combos in any game, and this goes even more for RPGs. I really hate
  > that idea.")

Okay, now check that thread. That's really the only strong resistance to it. Other that that, you have:

1: Your system for balancing unarmed and armed combat sounds very cool, but I think you are trying too hard to make them equal. ...

For a true fighter of a character the system sounds great.

All of the ideas seem really cool, making charimsa based skills important even for the pure run and gun types and giving more depth to the unarmed combat.

The persuasion thing sounds a little weird... Being able to directly influence your NPCs's actions is a good idea though.

Voted that I really like the idea because hey, I do. Just be careful with the new skills.

And it goes on and on like that. Like I said, he didn't post that here or NMA simply because he doesn't want anyone telling him how bad the ideas are and why. In fact, if you'll notice his thread about the reducing the gun skills, he didn't want to disguss the thing anymore after it was mathematically shown that energy weapons are the end-all-be-all weapons in Fallout and Fallout 2. At this point, I think he just wants feedback from people saying everything he does is peachy-licious.

[Petey_the_Skid]

I've read most of that thread as well, and yes, it is mostly positive, with the folks there agreeing with JE for the most part. You must admit, that nobody will want to post anything where they are only going to encounter unremitting hostility from the majority of other users, along with no constructive feedback at all except "Don't change a goddamn thing at all! Otherwise you're a fuckhead who should never have been born at all and is destined to burn in hell with Satan forever!". Nobody is going to post in an environment like that.

Some of the people here are worse than funadamentalist born again christians.

[spyder07]

Damn, Chuck Chuveas or however the hell you spell it must have killed JE and has taken his place. How else would somthing so great could get so fucked up like this?