JE Sawyer on mergers

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:59 pm

HanoverF wrote:Gambling should be merged with Outdoors skill, since they're basically the same thing, using a bit of luck and a bit of knowledge to do something.

Barter should be merged with speech, hello, no brainer

Do we really need Science AND Repair? I've seen Junkyard Wars enough to know we dont.

:p

Maybe if we merge all the designers at Black Isle we'd get a half decent game?

Yes, let's kill off noncombat skills to make everything more like Fallout Tactics. No, on second thought, let's not and make the Fallout world a bit less shallow.

Sammael · Post by **Sammael** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 7:06 pm

For those with the cheaper tickets, the only significant reduction is in the combat skill department.

Calal · Post by **Calal** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 8:39 pm

HanoverF wrote:Gambling should be merged with Outdoors skill, since they're basically the same thing, using a bit of luck and a bit of knowledge to do something.

Barter should be merged with speech, hello, no brainer

Do we really need Science AND Repair? I've seen Junkyard Wars enough to know we dont.

:p

Maybe if we merge all the designers at Black Isle we'd get a half decent game?

WTF? Where did you get that idea? I think you' re a complete moron if this is your vision on how skills work. Hello, no brainer.

How can Gambling and Outdoorsman be the same when one is used to determine your understanding of and chances of succes in a game of luck, while the other is used when trying to live of the land and possibly finding sheltering from hazards? Well I supose I' ll use my tent and shovel to have some insight and higher rate of succes in this game of dice, now won' t I?

Bartering includes apraising items, judging worth, making deals. Sure you lie to someone to make it seem more expensive, but that' s called haggling my friend.
Speech is lying, deceiving, talking your way out of a situation you' d rather not be in, but also charming someone, influence their opinion about you.

And I didn' t know that repairing a vehicle or a weapon or whatever, was the same thing as creating drugs, using my knowledge to use a computer. Otherwise we could just hand out a high-physics degree to carmechanics and call them all proffesors. (no pun intended whatsoever to our dear carmechanics)

I sure hope you were saying that as a joke!

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 8:43 pm

One could argue that effectively using a grenade does not require a tremendous amount of practice, while using a throwing knife on the other hand does require a great deal of skill.

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:17 pm

Sammael wrote:For those with the cheaper tickets, the only significant reduction is in the combat skill department.

I've seen him mention non-combat skills as well, like BARTER BEING USELESS.

Forty-six & Two · Post by **Forty-six & Two** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 12:01 am

Calal wrote:I sure hope you were saying that as a joke!

Ahm.. I think he was... :roll:

Sammael · Post by **Sammael** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:03 am

Saint_Proverbius wrote:I've seen him mention non-combat skills as well, like BARTER BEING USELESS.

Which is why he is increasing its usefulness through the means he posted on the IPLY forum a few days ago.

I am personally not a fan of skills that serve only one purpose, so I have to agree with him. A skill that's just useful for shopping is not a very good skill IMO.

EN. · Post by **EN.** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:16 am

One of the arguments for throwing merging with melee is that characters who want a throwing character will now no longer have such a hard time through the game. One of the flaws of the throwing skill was that the weapons just didn't work with it. You had throwing spears and knives, but those didn't do enough damage. You had grenades, but those were hard to find, heavy to lug around, and had only a one-shot use. The only real use for grenades were to hit several people at once... otherwise you would probably have been better off with guns... unfortunately, since guns had the burst function, grenades really got the shaft.

From what I've read so far in the Interplay forums, the idea is that throwing can be merged with melee because a lot of throwing weapons are melee weapons as well. Spear, Knife, etc. It is plausible to accept the idea that someone who has been training all their lives on how to use a knife should also probably know how to throw a knife and have it hit an exact target. The skill now isn't one's skill with melee, but more of a skill on how to use melee weapons in general. Also, you could say that since throwing weapons would probably be in close quarters, and melee doesn't mean hand to hand combat to the core (it could mean a battle, or some sort of tussle, or a brawl/jumble... something close quarters) it would then imply that throwing weapons *could* be within the borders of melee fighting.

I've also read that lots of people are opting to put grenades in the "traps" skill, with it being an explosive and all that, because grenades aren't exactly a melee weapon... this would increase the usefulness of the traps skill.

Reklar · Post by **Reklar** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:39 am

Sammael posted: I am personally not a fan of skills that serve only one purpose, so I have to agree with him. A skill that's just useful for shopping is not a very good skill IMO.

So basically you are saying every skill in Fallout and Fallout 2 is useless? Considering the significance of bartering in both games I respectfully disagree that a single skill devoted to the action is wasteful or a product of poor design.

The point of having skills defined as they are in Fallout is to indicate specialization and avoid having characters who can do everything. You can tag three skills at creation to indicate particularly high interest skills for the type of character you wish to role-play, but the rest require a great deal of point allocation, representing experience gained during the character's travels, indicating that it is difficult to be good at everything at once. Interesting characters can be a Jack-of-all-trades or highly skilled in four or five areas, but not in every possible skill available. Perhaps that assertion is not shared by the majority of gamers, but the people attracted to role-playing games tend to be people interested in characters who will be challenging to play because they have both strengths and weakness, some of which will be overcome or at least minimized during the course of their travels. It is one of the classic literary elements of what makes a hero and is generally accepted as a more identifiable character than an ubermensch. After all, if you can do everything well, what will actually challenge you?

It seems to me that JE Sawyer, as much as I respect his skill and love for Fallout, is either looking for excuses to create a new Fallout in his own image, metaphorically speaking, or he is being pressured by management/marketing to create something that will supposedly be more appealing to a wider audience and is fabricating his responses to seem reasonable and necessary. Either way, from what I've seen so far, I cannot say I'm very optimistic about the future of Fallout 3 right now. If it cannot be held to the original and recognized as a true continuation it should be postponed until such time as it is possible. Half measures and classic computer role-play gaming do not mix well.

bloodbathmaster2 · Post by **bloodbathmaster2** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 7:15 am

My argument:

IT'S NOT FUCKING BROKEN! DON'T 'FIX' IT!

Or rather, to quote Fallout: "You can't fix that."

HanoverF · Post by **HanoverF** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:26 pm

Its called sarcasm boys and girls, if this

Maybe if we merge all the designers at Black Isle we'd get a half decent game?

doesn't tell you it's a joke then your friggen clueless.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:51 pm

HanoverF wrote:Its called sarcasm boys and girls, if this
Maybe if we merge all the designers at Black Isle we'd get a half decent game?
doesn't tell you it's a joke then your friggen clueless.

Hardly. Go back to the IPLY boards now.

Post by **DarkUnderlord** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 7:01 am

bloodbathmaster2 wrote:My argument:

IT'S NOT FUCKING BROKEN! DON'T 'FIX' IT!

Or rather, to quote Fallout: "You can't fix that."

If the mechanic of the year suddenly appeared next to J.E. Sawyer, not even the both of them could fix where FO3 is going.

Langy · Post by **Langy** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 11:59 pm

How the hell was Barter useful when I had more cash than I could ever possibly use midway through both games and I never once put a single point into Barter? Sorry, that skill was rather useless. Adding more functionality to it is a great idea. Why would anyone be against that?

Throwing wasn't all that great, but that was because the tools you could use to throw either sucked or were too rare. I'm against merging Throwing with anything, as I think they should just add better throwing weapons or make everything in the game throwable. I'm still not sure why people are against that besides them saying it doesn't make sense why someone would invent a newfangled throwing weapon besides 'nades...

By the way, apparently JE is now in favor of merging all the firearms skills into one... This, I think, is a mistake. I think there should be three Firearms skills, Pistols, Rifles, and Big Guns. That's at least better than the old Small Guns, Big Guns, Energy Weapons deal and still keeps the same number of guns. I'd just hope someone would make better Big Guns...

Kindo · Post by **Kindo** » Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:15 am

I got really glad when I got to hear about this Sawyer guy and Fallout 3...I thought he'd keep it real.
But now he has truly disappointed me, he has showed his true face.

Langy · Post by **Langy** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:00 pm

I think his entire job is to tweak the SPECIAL system for FO3. In any case, I don't see how he's all that terrible. The only things he has done that I disagree with that I can think of off the top of my head is merge Throwing with Melee and merge all the Firearms skills together. I love his changes to Barter, Speach, Science, and Doctor/First Aid. That's really what I care about more, anyways, as I've never played a CombatBoy type person:p

Oh yeah, races... As long as they are done well, they could add to the game. Then again, they might suck. I don't really know, as we still have some pretty limited information about it.

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 12:49 am

Langy wrote:Oh yeah, races... As long as they are done well, they could add to the game. Then again, they might suck. I don't really know, as we still have some pretty limited information about it.

How can you do races well? Especially when one of those races is SUPERMUTANT?

HELLO! I am a SUPERMUTANT! I'm over 100 years old, have no experience at all, and I'm the equivalent of a level 8 human character. I'm immune to disease and radiation, and I have really high damage resistances even without armor! PLAY ME!

Yeah, it could work!

Langy · Post by **Langy** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 1:29 am

You make them start out as level eight, with a completely different beginning than a human or a ghoul. Having them start out as level one, in my opinion, doesn't make all that much sense, I agree with you on that.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 2:02 pm

To back up Saint, I might point out that the level 1 supermutants in Fallout 1 (ie. all the 40HP mutants at the watershed in Necropolis except Harry) were pretty damn badass, even while unarmed. Try fighting those as a level 1 human, I dare ya.

Now throw in 160 (let's say 100 to be safe) years of experience and see how far that gets ya.

Araanor · Post by **Araanor** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:05 pm

I know I know!! Amnesia!