Tim Cain p0wnz teh n00bz

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:35 am

You're right that it doesn't have a direct effect on dialog, but that doesn't matter. The combat is still part of the role-playing, and if one aspect of a game isn't up to snuff it will drag down the other areas of the game even if they aren't directly associated. Hence all the "rt combat ruined it for me" comments you get when discussing PST and probably the upcoming Lionheart.

Sammael · Post by **Sammael** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:52 am

Sorry guys, Sawyer wins. For once, MTC wasn't allowed to get away with his "Holier than Thou" blanket statements.

CRPGs cannot play the same way as PnP. Anybody who's ever played PnP for more than five minutes knows that.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:57 am

Sammael, you're missing the point here. TB can work in a CRPG, so Tim Cain says, "Why bother changing it?" What's wrong with that statement?

Furthermore, how does JE's statement, "Well, we're changing stuff anyway, so why not change more?" counter Timmy's statement in any way? To me they simply represent different design philosophies that aren't "right" or "wrong" outside of personal preference and the detrimental effect of the change to RT in this particular case.

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:12 am

Doyle wrote:Sammael, you're missing the point here. TB can work in a CRPG, so Tim Cain says, "Why bother changing it?" What's wrong with that statement?

Furthermore, how does JE's statement, "Well, we're changing stuff anyway, so why not change more?" counter Timmy's statement in any way? To me they simply represent different design philosophies that aren't "right" or "wrong" outside of personal preference and the detrimental effect of the change to RT in this particular case.

im in favour with Mr Cain's "If it aint broke, dont mess with it approach."

While JE philosophy is, " Well, we are changing stuff anyway, so why not change more ? ".
I certainly have no problems with changes as long it does not deviate too much from what Tim Cain envisioned and created. This is because the FO1 and FO2 we know is basically mostly credited to Tim Cain and JE Sawyer might mess up the FallOut we all know and love !

on a crappier note, there was mention of dual wielding pistols and SMGs in that same thread a few pages back and JE Sawyer was all for it to put in dual weapons.

http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=165
:roll:

and yes i am finally convinced FO is dead.

And those who love FO: POS will jump on FO3 becos its real time and th3y c4n u5e t3h du41 SMGs !!!!!!!

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:58 am

It's nice to read stuff by Timmy... Reminds you that there is till hope for CRPGs.

Sammael · Post by **Sammael** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:30 am

Doyle wrote:TB can work in a CRPG, so Tim Cain says, "Why bother changing it?" What's wrong with that statement?

First of all, to clarify, I am generally in favor of TB over RT.

Yes, TB can work in a CRPG. It worked in FO and FO2 (although it was far inferior to, say, JA2's implementation of TB combat). It sort of worked in Arcanum, but only because the RT mode was so abysmally poor that it was practically impossible to use.

It didn't work in Pool of Radiance 2. And that is the most recent isometric party-based D&D 3E game we have. It may work in ToEE. I don't know for sure, but I have doubts (mostly concerning the fact that ToEE is little more than a dungeon hack, and dungeon hacking in TB tends to get boring).

But, guess what? RT works as well. IE games have sold much, much more than the recent TB games. From a producer's point of view, it would make zero sense not to include a RT mode, if the programmers can make it work.

Why bother changing it? Because the people making the game aren't the people who are going to buy the game, that's why. As simple as that. And RT can be advantageous - in a CRPG that focuses on things other than combat, I don't want to waste time on combat - I want it to be over with as soon as possible, which eliminates TB. Even in a CRPG that focuses on combat, like PoR2, a poor TB implementation can hurt more than a decent RT implementation would.

Ausir · Post by **Ausir** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:20 am

And still the turn-based computer strategies have more strategy involved than RTS - Civilization series, Master of Orion series, Europa Universalis...

Post by **DarkUnderlord** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:24 pm

Sammael wrote:I[nfinity] E[ngine] games have sold much, much more than the recent T[urn] B[ased] games.

Like Civilization III...?

Sammael wrote:From a producer's point of view, it would make zero sense not to include a RT mode, if the programmers can make it work.

Did anybody else here notice the size of that "if"?

Sammael wrote:Why bother changing it? Because the people making the game aren't the people who are going to buy the game, that's why.

~BZZZT~ WRONG!!

True, Id Software don't buy their own games, but if they make something they like, chances are, someone else out there who likes the same things as them is going to like the game too. The people making the game are going to make games that they like (hence JE's messing with FO). They're only hoping that there are enough other people out there that like the same things.

Thinking like yours would mean a game like "The Sims" would never get made. NOTE: The Sims is the highest selling game of all time. Do a bit of googling to find out the development history of it, it's pretty interesting.

The problem occurs when you have developers creating a game that they don't like or that they don't believe in. Implementing areas or systems purely for marketing reasons, rather than because they like them, means they will poorly implement those things. They don't like them, so why should they care if the system isn't perfect? On the other hand, you get a group of developers that are really working on something they enjoy, they put the extra effort in to make sure it's right.

Sammael wrote:As simple as that. And RT can be advantageous - in a CRPG that focuses on things other than combat, I don't want to waste time on combat - I want it to be over with as soon as possible, which eliminates TB.

I enjoyed Fallout's combat a lot. The only reason I keep playing FO2 after the end-game is because I like shooting raiders in turn-based. If the combat is interesting, people will play it and enjoy it.

Senor Deluxe · Post by **Senor Deluxe** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:22 pm

Um, I think Tim Cain just said he hadnÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´t taken the game anywhere. PnP rules are turn-based and so is TOEE, so where did he take the game? If it SHOULD be taken somewhere, is a different question, but to actually ask why he changed something, where he didnÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´t really make a change is pretty dumb IMO.

The discussion about character skills vs. player skills is quite important I think. I do not like to rely on MY skills, when playing a RPG. That should be quite obvious. On the other hand thereÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´s always a lot of player skills involved. If you forget to buy stimpaks or reload your gun after a battle, your character will suffer from it, even if he has an intelligence of 10 and hence should have thought of this.

Sammael · Post by **Sammael** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:35 pm

Senor Deluxe wrote:Um, I think Tim Cain just said he hadnÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´t taken the game anywhere. PnP rules are turn-based and so is TOEE, so where did he take the game?

He didn't. Of course, the main difference between PnP and CRPG combat is that PnP combat cannot be real-time unless you are into LARP, whereas CRPGs can pull it off quite easily. Both PnP and CRPGs are supposed to be simulations of real life (to a certain degree). I don't think many people would try to argue that we do things in turns IRL.

On the other hand thereÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´s always a lot of player skills involved. If you forget to buy stimpaks or reload your gun after a battle, your character will suffer from it, even if he has an intelligence of 10 and hence should have thought of this.

Excellent point.

Araanor · Post by **Araanor** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:38 pm

Ausir wrote:And still the turn-based computer strategies have more strategy involved than RTS - Civilization series, Master of Orion series, Europa Universalis...

Funny you should mention EU, it's real-time, but it plays more like a turn-based game.

Sammael · Post by **Sammael** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:39 pm

DarkUnderlord wrote:
Sammael wrote:I[nfinity] E[ngine] games have sold much, much more than the recent T[urn] B[ased] games.
Like Civilization III...?

Honestly, I don't know the sales figures for Civ3. Of course, the fact that I was talking about turn based CRPGs is conveniently ignored.

However, I daresay that Warcraft III sold a whole hell of a lot more than Civ3.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:56 pm

Sammael wrote:Both PnP and CRPGs are supposed to be simulations of real life

That's why the developers take so much time to make a balanced rules set for all types of play, huh? I can't think of any PnP RPGs, except for maybe GURPS, that are even close to realistic. And GURPS is hard to play and ridiculously unbalanced, neh?

A successful PNP RPG player uses a blend of both player skills and their own character. People who are charismatic in real life are often better at saying stuff in PNP RPGs that quiet people. Smart people are usually better at solving puzzles or putting the story together. People with a good knowledge of tactics or fighting will probably do better in combat if the system is implemented right. The character is only a few numbers and guidelines for the player to roleplay on; what really matters is how involved the player is in what's going on in the game & their real life abilities.

That said, things like reflexes and quick thinking should never have to be used.

swordinstone · Post by **swordinstone** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:09 pm

A lot of this argument comes down to how combat oriented a game is, and how realistic the combat is. Can you character (if high level) take a rocket or 2 and survive? Combat, or fighting, or whatever, is based on quick descions in real life, and its totally unrealistic to have 1/2 an hour (real time) to plan out how your going to take out 4 guys with machine guns in less than 5 seconds (game time)... counting action points and ammo the whole time. That is generally way beyond your character's skills. Is it supposed to be like the matrix, where the PCs are moving at 3 to 4 times the speed of "normals". Or is it supposed to be more realistic? I think Fallout falls on the more "Realistic" side, but there are some things that make it unrealistic also. In my overall opinion, combat looses its impact if you arent having to react quickly and smartly.

How is real-time combat, where the results and actions (die rolls and whatever) are based off a character sheet and set combat rules, using your skills over the character's? All your doing is telling him where/when to shoot, and where/when to run... which is exactly the situation in real time, except you have less time to think about it. Its not like they're turning FO3 into a FPS. They're isn't much dexterity involved.... hell, you set a "sentry mode" and your character will shoot for you... all you have to worry about is decent cover and positioning. I'm not suggesting they take turn based away, if you want to play that way, go for it. I find it pretty dull, and so do a lot of other people.

That said, things like reflexes and quick thinking should never have to be used.

I'm not trying to single you out on this atoga, but what do you guys want? To play a game? Or program a robot, and set it loose on the virtual world to watch what happens?

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:25 pm

They should never be fundamental, that's all I'm saying. The things I think important were listed before that.

bloodbathmaster2 · Post by **bloodbathmaster2** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:43 pm

I for one am happy that Troika games (might I say that the credit goes beyond Tim Cain, as cool as he may be) is creating a computer game trying in every way they can to encompass the style of a PnP game. Really, the diffrence between PnP and CRPGS isn't so much playing it with your friends (which I'll admit is a fun part of PnP games) vs playing solo (I'll add that two people PnP sessions can be a fun way to kill the time), its in how the DM runs the campagin. If Troika succeeds in creating such an emmersive DM machine as to imitate the ingenuity and creativity of a good human DM, then there is much hope for PnP style CRPGS on the horizion.

archimed · Post by **archimed** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:00 pm

For christ sakes.. this is the second time I've had to mention this in a week. POST FALLOUT NEWS
THIS IS NOT TIMCAIN.COM NOR TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL.COM

Sure, timmy brainchilded fallout, but who cares anymore? He's working on a D&D system now.

Get your shit together, DAC. You're making yourselves look bad.

Xax · Post by **Xax** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:06 pm

"*Yawns* I think JE has design envy."

*Yawns* Killzig has to make differences of opinion a personal vendetta once again. I'm sure I'll get razed for not being part of the Killzig fan club, which seems to be fairly sizeable around here, but I don't mind much.

I think JE has an excellent point. I highly respect Tim Cain, and eagerly await his games; this isn't personal (and JE didn't make it out to be personal... Killzig, take note).

I think leaving the system turn-based or modifying it to be real-time are both valid options, but not everyone likes the same thing as everyone else. Each system has it's pros and cons, but I don't believe that JE's perspective is invalid, nor is Tim Cain's.

Mr Carrot · Post by **Mr Carrot** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:12 pm

archimed wrote:For christ sakes.. this is the second time I've had to mention this in a week. POST FALLOUT NEWS
THIS IS NOT TIMCAIN.COM NOR TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL.COM

Sure, timmy brainchilded fallout, but who cares anymore? He's working on a D&D system now.

Get your shit together, DAC. You're making yourselves look bad.

fuck off ya cretin. this is duck and cover not www.fallout.com they can post what ever the fuck they want.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:58 pm

Sammael wrote:First of all, to clarify, I am generally in favor of TB over RT.

Yes, TB can work in a CRPG.

Then how is what Tim Cain said wrong?

Duck and Cover

Tim Cain p0wnz teh n00bz

fallout news? No.

Re: fallout news? No.