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VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:09 pm

Large ghoul communities outside Necropolis just don't seem plausible as the most probable reaction by other people would be to shoot them at sight. Also, they are sterile. Ghouls aren't common residents of the wastes. A fact that Tactics and other spinoffs seem to have misunderstood. Just like the BoS status as some ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¼berelite police organisation. How Bethesda handles these facts, remains to be seen.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:06 pm

King of Creation wrote:Just because the research was done at West Tek doesn't mean that there couldn't have been other facilities around the country that did work on it.

Yeah it does. All the documentation found at West Tek and Mariposa on FEV made it quite clear that all the FEV work was happening at one of those two places. Saying "o ya but dere was secret resursh going on in Washington!!!!" not only reeks of sloppy retconning, it was done in goddamn FOBOS.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:51 pm

How do ghouls come about? I thought they were just the result of good old-fashioned radiation? Which would imply that they can come about pretty much anywhere?

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:00 pm

This is true. Most ghouls are thought to have come from the Bakersfield (Necropolis) Vault, the door of which didn't properly close. Still, presumably, an individual who was exposed to massive radiation for whatever reason could get ghoulified. I don't know if you'd have populations of them as big as in California, but they could make something up (Vault 45 had such and such a malfunction blah blah blah) that wouldn't be too far fetched to explain native eastern ghouls.

DJ SlamÃƒÂ¡k · Post by **DJ SlamÃƒÂ¡k** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:41 pm

Then there are also failed super-mutants - people who were dipped in FEV after exposure to a higher amount of radiation (though not high enough to ghoulify them by itself), such as the average inhabitant of the wasteland, and got "ghoulified" (hence the Master's obsession with Vault dwellers). This is what happened to Harold.

But of course this kind of thing couldn't happen in the East <= no FEV.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:50 pm

We-l-l, that's not totally certain either. It's also been said that radiated people who get dipped make stupid super mutants. The problem is that ZAX, the Master and the Lieutenant contradict each other on this. Here's what I've been able to piece together:

FEV, the kind that makes super mutants is NOT airborne. ZAX said so.

However, the Lieutenant says that normals with existing FEV exposure make for stupid super mutants (or ghouls, can't recall). The Lou says that the FEV at West Tek was mutated by the bombs, went airborne and inoculated everyone against the Mariposa stuff.

But then the Master says that normals with radiation exposure make stupid super mutants (orghouls, can't recall).

What I figure is this: the FEV that mutated at West Tek went airborne but also lost its mutagenic ability. The evidence of this is obvious since the people you meet in the wasteland who are ostensibly infected with the airborne FEV are regular humans. (Radscorpions, brahmin and another wacky animals are the product of radiation.) But, the airborne FEV still inoculates them against the original FEV from Mariposa such that they don't make good super mutants when dipped.

Radiation damage would also seem to matter, perhaps in much the same way.

What I figure is that the less exposure you have to the airborne FEV and radiation, the better. Since the populations of the Vaults are low on both counts, this makes them ideal for the purpose.

As for ghouls: I say most of them are from the Necropolis Vault and are just caused by radiation. However, dipping is pretty unpredictable and has a lot of variables, so you never quite know what you'll get (look at the Centaurs and floaters... hell, look at the Master).

And as far as Harold is concerned, I go with the Supreme Fallout Commander on this one: Harold's not really a ghoul. Harold's special.

Read the Vault. I've written all kinds of crap about this shit.

VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:05 pm

Indeed, that leaves room for speculation but I'd rather buy ZAXs and the Masters version. I always considered stupid super mutants as early (test)versions of FEV dipping.

This is a bit off-topic but what the hell.. I've never heard the story behind the super-duper mutants in Fallout 2. I don't know if they were meant as a joke or they differ somehow from 'normal' super mutants. At least they have higher HP if I recall correctly, but as you said it could be because FEV is a bit unpredictable.

/edit - by the way, it's a good thing this(and other) stuff has been documented and compiled in the wiki. Thumbs up.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:09 pm

If you ask MCA, he'll go "GAEM LOGIK LOL". Basically, they needed tougher mutants to provide a challenge for the PC.

As to why they're tougher, well, some humans are tougher than others, so maybe some mutants have a higher endurance stat than others, or maybe have some experience levels (like the PC) that gets them more HP. HP isn't necessarily a straight up depiction of how much actual damage a character can take. D&D describes it more as an indication of how long a character can weather people trying to kill him without getting winded, your general capacity to take a blow without necessarily actually getting hurt.

Zetura Dracos · Post by **Zetura Dracos** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:45 am

I think it would be pretty interesting to have the game take place shortly after a mass exodus of the mutant/ghoul/tribal (maybe the BOS too) population into the East following a number of purges designed by the NCR and Vault Cityto purge the undesireables from the region. The game starts off with your character stumbling into a small outpost in the East with a group of five-hundred or so refugees who decided to push all the way to the coast.

It seems an interesting enough set-up. You've got hostile powers pushing from the west and flexing their muscles more and more. Then you've got a new group of organizations built up on the West coast who have never seen the like of this army of refugees that's suddenly found itself uprooted and thrust into a new region full of people incapable of recognizing or understanding them. You've also got the old stand-bys but at the same time enough new elements to keep things fresh.

Throw in a good plot and You'ld probably have yourself a good game.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:16 pm

Spazmo is a true encyclopedia.

Sax · Post by **Sax** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:21 pm

Ghouls can travel ? therefore a ghoul comune would be plausable

ApTyp · Post by **ApTyp** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:25 pm

Ghouls ride a subway

VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:41 pm

Sax wrote:Ghouls can travel ? therefore a ghoul comune would be plausable

Yes, but ghouls can't reproduce, thus limiting their possibilities of forming several communities. They would almost certainly experience violence and discrimination if they settle in another community. Their best chance of surviving would be to live on their own, separated from rest of the world. Ghouls only come from one vault(Necropolis vault, that is) so their numbers aren't that great.

Also, assuming another vault experienced a similar destiny elsewhere would feel a bit far-fetched, wouldn't it?

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:50 pm

Spazmo wrote:(orghouls, can't recall)

Stupid mutants, I think. Ghouls are pretty much rarely FEV-related, the only creatures that are that you found were Harold (not a ghoul), the Master, all super-mutants, floaters and centaurs.

Edit: oooh, and Talius. Wonder what happened to him...

Zetura wrote:East following a number of purges designed by the NCR and Vault Cityto purge the undesireables from the region.

That'd mean NCR would have to turn evil

That'd be good, I hate those do-gooders.

Vas wrote:Also, assuming another vault experienced a similar destiny elsewhere would feel a bit far-fetched, wouldn't it?

Not really, since pretty much all the Vault experiments were meant to fail somehow. Whether it opens the door too early or is filled with noxious gasses a year after closing, forcing everyone out, doesn't really matter. I can imagine more than one vault having the same result, roughly.

In fact, I'm a bit unclear on why, if radiation produced the ghouls, only one vault opening too early reproduced them. What about the survivors wandering around in the Wasteland? Not all from the Vaults, were they?

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:08 pm

The Bakersfield Vault (12) was unique. First off, it was underneath a city, which is a more alluring target for enemy bombs than the mountain V13 was under. Second, the Vault door was open during the bombardment, which I guess would be worse than just walking around in the radiation shortly after the bombs fell.

VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:12 pm

Kharn wrote:What about the survivors wandering around in the Wasteland? Not all from the Vaults, were they?

Yeah, if there were any. It's pretty much impossible to survive an apocalypse without the sufficient shelter, food and water for a very long period. Vaults(and perhaps certain military installations) were designed for this, although they also functioned as experiments in the Enclave grand plan.

Killzig · Post by **Killzig** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:24 pm

Megatron wrote:Why do you have to choose a coast why don't you set it in Deep south and then you can go to mexico thats like fallout irl anyway and theres a swamp and a alligator.

This actually might not be bad (except for the mexico bit) .. I don't think the desert is the thing of fallout if not the overall survival/outdoors aspect. I'd still prefer the west coast but if they insist on moving it the south east would be a great choice.

Post by **King of Creation** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:43 pm

What do you mean by Deep South? Like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas? The problem I see there is the lack of any interesting locales. They're basically desert as it is. And the swamps and gators are in the South east: Florida, Georgia, Louisiana. Hell, I think New Orleans would be an amazing location for Fallout. Vodoo tribals, secret societies....it would be very cool, especially since New Orleans and the surrounding area isn't much of a strategic target and the architecture and stuff probably survived the wars fairly well.

ApTyp · Post by **ApTyp** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:48 pm

Well, I've played "Fountain of Dreams" and I can't say nuclear war and voodoo stuff mix well.

Besides, it's not like Fallout is very open to anything original. You can't have lush forests, or aliens, or a sprawling metropolis, or dragons.

Killzig · Post by **Killzig** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:58 pm

King of Creation wrote:What do you mean by Deep South? Like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas? The problem I see there is the lack of any interesting locales. They're basically desert as it is. And the swamps and gators are in the South east: Florida, Georgia, Louisiana. Hell, I think New Orleans would be an amazing location for Fallout. Vodoo tribals, secret societies....it would be very cool, especially since New Orleans and the surrounding area isn't much of a strategic target and the architecture and stuff probably survived the wars fairly well.

Consider Florida significantly shortened by rising oceans w/e... Key cities might include Atlanta, Charleston, Jax, New Orleans and you could probably throw in a bunch of interesting smaller cities on rivers (think Deliverance) and in the bayou. Also some interesting little mountain locals on the tail end of the appalachians. The landscape doesn't necessarily have to be brown and sandy. Its a few hundred years later why can't nature evolve with the radiation too? As far as swamp critters go. Maybe one or two radioactive gators but the whole OMG SUPERSIZED ANEEMAL attacking you bit is too generic for my liking.

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