Happy Hiroshima day!

[DarkUnderlord]

<strong>[ Community -> Article ]</strong>

<p>60 years ago today, Hiroshima was blown right the fuck up. Someone
dropped an A-Bomb on it apparently, a couple of hundred thousand people
died and the <a href="http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=52213" target="_self">world became a better place</a>.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Hiroshima, August 6: With prayers and flowers, residents of
Hiroshima today began marking the 60th anniversary of the world's first
nuclear bombing which claimed more than 140,000 lives.


A bell was tolled at 8:15 am (0445 IST) and the city observed a minute
of silence, the exact moment that a US bomb obliterated the city in
1945.


Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, dressed in a dark suit, opened the
ceremony in the reconstructed city by laying a wreath at the memorial
park in the heart of the city and bowing before a coffin that lists
names of the victims.


Hiroshima Mayor Tadatoshi Akiba said that six decades into the atomic
age, "selfish" states including nuclear aspirant North Korea were
threatening "human survival." He urged the United Nations to adopt
specific steps to abolish nuclear weapons by 2020. </p>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm sure world powers will be giving up thier nuclear weapons any
day now in rememberance of all those who lost their lives. </p>

[Zathras]

Your note exudes disapproval over the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima and i do admit that it killed a LOT of japanese people. However the bleeding heart mentality that everyone drips now over the atomic bombs' use in Japan shows absolutely NO awareness of the military and political state of affairs in the Pacific at the time.

Even after the use of the bombs and the invasion of Manchuria by the Soviets the military rulers of Japan did NOT want to surrender (the emperor forced them to do so and many officers suicided because of this) and with good reason. They knew that the US only had a couple of bombs and in actual fact were more feared of the B29 fire bombing. They knew EXACTLY where the allies would land in Japan and had very well prepared positions and troops in high numbers there. Also at the time, because of the kamikazes the morale in the US navy was at an all time low(some ships' crews had been at sea for almost the whole war) and the attack on japan would have seen EVERY aircraft(including trainers) heading for the easily in reach invasion fleet. Allied casualty projections vary from 500K to 1000K. If you doubt this look at the US casualties in Iwo Jima and Okinawa or do better and read some analyses.

In addition there were some >100K allied POWS and NONE of them would have survived if the war had ended in any other way. I knew a POW who had been taken to the mines in Japan near Hiroshima. He slept in a quarry with other POWs surrounded by wired and charged 44g drums of petrol and the guards used to boast:"Yankee come you burn".
Every POW camp was given instructions to KILL all allied POWs once trhe allies came close(the Sandakan death march where my uncle died in 1945 was an example of just this).

The Japanese military provoked TOTAL war in the pacific not the allies.
Prisoners who surrended often had concealed grenades or similar and taking a prisoner was always a risk. In addition, what they did to our prisoners should never be forgotten(bayonet practice), The Japanese civilians where taught to resist the allies(women and children) if invasion occurred and the japanese casualties from an invasion would have been from 5-10million.

The US did them a favour by dropping the bombs and they also saved a lot of allied lives. It was a very GOOD decision at the time.
Had the Japanese or the germans had similar weapons they would have used them without compunction and wherever they thought useful.

So, while I am sorry for the japanese people who suffered a lot from the war, I am far more sorry for all of OUR casualties and find breastbeating over an action that stopped the war ridiculous.

If you wonder why I am still so angry over this sort of thing read some recent Japanese histories of the war where the little sods still wont even admit to Nanking, Sandakan, Buna, Bataan, Banka Island etc, The Germans admitted guilt after WW2 and made recompense and apologies to all concerned. The japanese have never admitted any guilt nor found apology or compensation necessary to their victims. Their leaders still pray at the shrine which houses the ashes of their executed war criminals.

I do NOT hate the Japanese people but I will never forgive them until they admit their guilt(war crimes not the origins of the war) and as far as I am concered the Abombs on japan was a GREAT idea.

[Blargh]

At the time of writing, I've exhausted my patience for this debate across several other forums. Suffice to say, I won't be repeating myself and more importantly, I do not agree with much of what you have written. I will however, suggest you consider reading from more varied and objective sources in future. Make of that what you will.

I imagine we feel especially honoured that you registered to inform us of your umbrage at any expression of remorse/sympathy/empathy/compassion for the many innocent, civilian lives that were lost and the generations who have and will continue to suffer due to the bombings.

[DarkUnderlord]

Your note exudes disapproval over the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima and i do admit that it killed a LOT of japanese people.

Zathras, as your Dungeon Master, I must inform you that you failed a roll against your Sarcasm Detection skill. The Evil Gazebo has now risen up and devoured your team. Sorry.

Do you want to play another game?

[PsychoSniper]

Your note exudes disapproval over the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima and i do admit that it killed a LOT of japanese people.

Zathras, as your Dungeon Master, I must inform you that you failed a roll against your Sarcasm Detection skill. The Evil Gazebo has now risen up and devoured your team. Sorry.

Do you want to play another game?

Pwnd...........


On a lighter note, while a bit dense Ive gotta agree with what Zathras said.

[Smiley]

The hella long post made by Zathras

Figures that whatever interesting bits there were about the war, we didn't get taught about.

While I wonder how much of it is true or not, be it Japanese or American information, some of those things did put a bit more perspective into it.

But even more so, the bombing gave us the perspective of what happens when you use a terrible weapon like that.
And while you may not feel the biggest remorse over what happened, the most important thing is, that be they Japanese, Chinese, Arabs, Iraqies or American...Civillians or soldiers who are more than likely pushed into war, no one truly deserves to get nuked.

And that's not to say that getting shot/tortured/blown up in any other way is better, but the toll of kill is just way wrong...

[Zathras]

1) Blargh wrote:
" imagine we feel especially honoured that you registered to inform us of your umbrage at any expression of remorse/sympathy/empathy/compassion for the many innocent, civilian lives that were lost and the generations who have and will continue to suffer due to the bombings".

OH dear!! Sarcasm and from such an enlightened if ignorant source.
Let me look explain to you what you obviously could not read in the first note.

The Japanese have for a long time made out the A-bomb attacks to be racist in origin. Of course, this totally ignores their comprehensive and state proclaimed racist attitudes in WW2.
See just how much sympathy the Japanese people ooze now for any Chinese, Korean, Allied, Thai , Malayan, Papua-New Guinean people that they slaughtered, starved or simply worked to death: apart from a few unique and brave individuals, essentially none and certainly not from the state.
As for extending my reading, you are talking out of your hat (or worse) show me where i have made mistakes or omissions!!
I think that you are a simple bleeding heart who quotes the usual garbage with truth as the victim as usual.

As for your sneer above...we were at war and civilian casualties while distasteful are often collateral to military aims. Don't see anything about Hamburg, Berlin or Dresden etc...Oh that's right the Nazis!! Well they deserved it all etc.

Why use the bomb in the case of Hiroshima? It had NEVER been bombed before by the B29s and was untouched so that the effect of the bomb could be clearly seen and no one had any real idea before it was dropped. In addition there were major armament factories there and it was their turn at very long last (many had relocated from previously bombed cities) despite Japanese claims to the contrary (I have seen an aerial pre-bomb photo of these factories from US Air Force archives. Check it yourself). In actual fact from memeory it wasn't even the first choice but clouds over the original choice made it so.

If I were at war I would rather see 10million enemy die instead of one million of my own side. Only a fool or a lunatic enjoys war and no sane person in peace enjoys anyone's death. However in war you are fighting for something that may well matter and if it is against a ferocious, determined enemy who shows no fear of death or any inclination to meet halfway or even surrender then it is about killing them. Ooops the nasty word. Easy to see that you have never been in a service, or if you had that you never saw a shot fired in anger or your friends die.

2) Dark Underlord wrote:

“Zathras, as your Dungeon Master, I must inform you that you failed a roll against your Sarcasm Detection skill. The Evil Gazebo has now risen up and devoured your team. Sorry.
Do you want to play another game?�

I did realise that this is not the forum for this and that it was only a vaguely cloudy pink around the said heart but having seen the media proclaimed public chest thumping about the bombs with absolutely no reference to the truth I saw red.
No one wants an atomic war but do you think that Stalin would have used them on the USA if the US had not had them first? If not then do check the history of the 1948 Berlin Blockade. I see a role for these weapons in anti-asteroid defence and while they should be strictly controlled should not be totally banned.
If you really wish to start a discussion: how much anguish would a fundamentalist islamo-fascist have about setting one off anywhere in the west? None!!! Their fanaticism and the jihad verses of the Quran totally (in their view) justify anything. In terms of the non Muslim (and “enemy� Muslims) all casualties are acceptable. Let the bleeding hearts see how much these ones care.

3) to Smiley

The Japanese casualties from the firebombing B29 raids did far more devastation and killed far more people than did the A-bombs. However in terms of concentrated killing and damage the nuclear weapons did it a lot more suddenly. The Japanese have made the Bombs the reason for their defeat and blame the US for their defeat for this reason. If anyone cares to look at the state of Japan before the bombs then you will see how truth still does not matter to them. All that they had left was the courage of their people and they were fully prepared to allow them(ie mostly civilians) to be slaughtered on the principle that this would sicken the allies and when added to their own casualties would make the allies sue for peace. Japan had nothing else left and the bomb gave the emperor the excuse to surrender and someone to blame(he could have stopped the war at ANYTIME)

The one thing that I can agree upon is the post bomb radiation effects upon people. No one could have nor did perceive the extent of this and it is PRECISELY those effects which have made the use of them too expensive to use (so far). If the US had not dropped them then in 1945 some one else would have by now you can be certain of that and it simply would have been the whole scenario again but in another country. You had to use it to see what it would do. Now we have and thank god for that as no one (lunatic fanatics aside) wants to do so again.

I will shut up now as I only logged in to update my son’s re-install of the fallout games and I have gone well past the post with regards to that.

My apologies to all about the length and the detail but not about the content.

[Blargh]

Zathras, your arguments are not new nor are they fresh. I've encountered and countered them in the past with such frequency to the point of being extremely weary. Unsurprisingly, you've not drawn sufficient interest to motivate a deeper response on my part. So sorry. If it makes you feel any better about your viewpoint and/or life in general, by all means consider yourself the 'victor' to this little disagreement of ours. I'm not worried, as with the exception of this elaboration, you aren't worth wasted time. Kindly maintain what little integrity you can muster and extend me that same courtesy, and so, have your actions fall in line with your opinion.

With love and boundless gratitude,
Blargh

P.S - Asparagus will help.

[PsychoSniper]

Dont froget how some US generals wanted to nuke the jap beachheads to kill and or disorient/blind enemy troops in the area, yet another example of how ignorant EVERYONE was of the toll that the weapon brought forth. (said idea was canned by scientests who actualy knew of fallout).

Not that you could blame the generals since estimates (in US war plans) Ive read put the estimated num of American casulties at one million plus to capture the entire island chain.

Yes it was a horrible weapon, but back then especily noone but a scant few knew how so, and even so the jap's started the war. We just finished it with a much bigger stick (which we proceded to metaphoricly stick up their ass and twist around).

Personaly, I fell ZERO remorse for the attack.

EDIT: And like Blargh, I too shall bow out before this gets out of hand.

[MadBill]

Hrm.
Nukes are good, they bring death.
Forgetting our history and why Nukes were used is bad. I think I remember reading somewhere that younger generations of Japenese are beginning to forget WWII.

On a side note:
Zathras registered and chose Zathras as a name, taken from Babylon 5.
Now, if anyone has watched that series, it was definately about War.
Nevermind Zathras being one of the best characters from the series, but I would say Zathras of DaC does indeed enjoy war, despite what he says.
http://www.loyd.net/osz/wisdom.html
"Zathras used to being beast of burden. Zathras have sad life, probably have sad death, but at least there is symmetry"

[VasikkA]

Don't you just love the ads in India?

Aside from the human casualties(which aren't unavoidable in war, by the way), it was a golden age for scientific research. Without a-bombs, a lot of the knowledge(and risks) of atoms and their tremendous power wouldn't be as comprehensive as it is today. Beautiful, but destructive.

[DarkUnderlord]

You're all a bunch of pansies. Zzthras is good to go and you're all chickening out.

If not then do check the history of the 1948 Berlin Blockade. I see a role for these weapons in anti-asteroid defence and while they should be strictly controlled should not be totally banned.

Yep. I can see nations world-wide giving control of their nuclear weapons over to... umm... someone else. Any minute now, nations of the world will be declaring that no longer will they have nuclear weapons and they will destroy all of them for peace and love and good will etc...

If you want to know what I really think:

• Dropping the A-Bomb was a Good Thingâ„¢.
• No country in their right mind is ever going to get rid of their nuclear arsenal on any signifigant level. Not now. Not ever. Not for any reason. Anyone who thinks overwise is a numbnuts.
• I like pie.

I actually, in fact, agree with you. Japan has historically (to my knowledge) not been too honest with themselves about the whole World War II thing. As far as I'm aware, it's rarely even taught in schools because, gosh forbid the Japanese kiddies find out Great-Grandpa "lost face" when he got his arse kicked by those dumb whities.

[Mismatch]

glahglahglah

The thing, the thing you'd want to remember, is that the bombs were dropped in a largely experimental cause, thats why 2 bombs were dropped and on two rather intact cities.

If you really wish to start a discussion: how much anguish would a fundamentalist islamo-fascist have about setting one off anywhere in the west? None!!!

So, basically, you're saying that someone may consider doing it without regret, so why should the US feel regret?

I see a role for these weapons in anti-asteroid defence and while they should be strictly controlled should not be totally banned.

Heh, either everyone should have them or noone should.
I have a hard time finding any country in modern history which has been the agressor more often than the US (With nio valid reason I may add), so if any country shouldnt be allowed having nukes its the US.
But, since he has them, why can't we all be one happy nuke family.


I don't know why I even bother.
Must be bored.
cheers

[Corvwyn]

I'm sure world powers will be giving up their nuclear weapons any
day now in rememberance of all those who lost their lives.

Hehe, good one there. I don't really see how the US can lecture people on having A-bombs when they have so many themselves. Why can't e.g. North Korea have nukes when US has. They're a threat? Well, who's the only one that's actually used two(!) of them? (Unnecessarily as well) To top this of Bush actually has the nerve to propose the development of "a new kind of" nukes (ok, so he's an idiot. That's no bloody excuse).

Mankind is fucking doomed. Embrace the apocalypse... or something.

[Retlaw83]

The nuclear bombings, at least at a tactical level, had the same effect on their targets as the firebombing of Dresden. Of course, the psychological impact of the attacks was strengthened because it took only one bomb in each case to do the job.

If the Japanese hadn't launched a sneak attack on the U.S., starved Allied POWs for sport, treated the Chinese like subhumans because they believed them to be so, and continuously refused to surrender in battles where they had lost and thus literally fought to the last man with no regard for human life, I'd be willing to bet the war would have either ended earlier, or around the same time in a conventional manner. Japanese bloodthirstiness and atrocity was met in kind with the A-bombs, and once they got a taste of the pain they had been dealing out they lost their nerve.

Dropping the bombs was - unfortunately - neccessary, but the only way to get evil motherfuckers to stop doing what they do is treat them how they treat other people.

[MadBill]

The nuclear bombings, at least at a tactical level, had the same effect on their targets as the firebombing of Dresden. Of course, the psychological impact of the attacks was strengthened because it took only one bomb in each case to do the job.

If the Japanese hadn't launched a sneak attack on the U.S., starved Allied POWs for sport, treated the Chinese like subhumans because they believed them to be so, and continuously refused to surrender in battles where they had lost and thus literally fought to the last man with no regard for human life, I'd be willing to bet the war would have either ended earlier, or around the same time in a conventional manner. Japanese bloodthirstiness and atrocity was met in kind with the A-bombs, and once they got a taste of the pain they had been dealing out they lost their nerve.

Dropping the bombs was - unfortunately - neccessary, but the only way to get evil motherfuckers to stop doing what they do is treat them how they treat other people.

I think I remember being taught this in elementary school.

The real deal is all humans suck. Always have and always will. We get what we deserve, us.

[Kahgan]

can't we just blow up all the nukes in the world and make a new Fallout-ish world, it'd be alot cooler

[Corvwyn]

Hehe. Meet atrocities with even worse atrocities. That's always been your way. One attack on your home soil and you get all loco. A-Bombs away, fuck up afghanistan, invade iraq without reason.

The fact is. By dropping the A-bombs the american government showed just how little they cared about humanity. Using humans like test subjects like that... This was just one of many atrocities that american leaders should have been punished for.

Remove Guantanamo bay and alteast try to show that you care about human rights and your own precious "justice".

[RasterOps]

Hehe. Meet atrocities with even worse atrocities. That's always been your way. One attack on your home soil and you get all loco. A-Bombs away, fuck up afghanistan, invade iraq without reason.

The fact is. By dropping the A-bombs the american government showed just how little they cared about humanity. Using humans like test subjects like that... This was just one of many atrocities that american leaders should have been punished for.

Remove Guantanamo bay and alteast try to show that you care about human rights and your own precious "justice".

After reading all these posts one thing is clear. Each person focuses on their own personal grievance rather than the topic. All aspects are rarely weighed nor considered together. Nor are any of the potential atrocities considered that might have ocurred had the war not ended when it did. Everyone points the finger and the blame at someone else, as if justified in their claim. Nor does anyone consider the relative immaturity of the era. The world as a whole is only beginning to consider Human rights. And yes even the US is in violation.

I do not claim the US is innocent. Nor do I claim the Iraqi's, Japanese, Germans, Russians, Terrorists (US, Arab, what-the-fuck-ever), Koreans, British, Isrealis, Chinese, ad inifitum are innocent. Each nation will pusue their own agenda and human rights be damned.

So, the US dropped the big ones. Now consider for a minute how the world might have changed had the nukes not been dropped. And I'm not talking about lives saved\lost or whether the war would have ended when it did. I'm talking about whether the fear of nuclear arms would exist. Whether there would have been an arms race. If not the US to drop the first nukes, then who or anyone at all? If nukes were later used would this have lead to a nuclear holocaust?

Personnally, I truely believe Humans are still too immature, and it's going to take another nuke to wake people up. This will undoubtedly happen on US soil, as everyone just hates us and believes we deserve it. I'm not an evil guy yet you hate me because I'm American, whatever. I welcome that nuke, let's get this over with and stop the senseless bickering... at least for awhile.

A spell checker would be nice...

[Retlaw83]

Hehe. Meet atrocities with even worse atrocities. That's always been your way.

Yeah, because killing a quarter of a million people with couple of big blasts is worse than raping, starving and imprisoning thousands more than that.

One attack on your home soil and you get all loco. A-Bombs away, fuck up afghanistan, invade iraq without reason.

I don't remember us nuking Afghanistan or Iraq. And as I understand it, Afghanistan was horrendously fucked up even before we entered it. But I'll give it to you - us crazy Americans sure don't like it when people attack us within our borders. Maybe it would be better if we let anyone who wants to kill all the Americans they want do just that, and don't retalliate in response?

The fact is. By dropping the A-bombs the american government showed just how little they cared about humanity. Using humans like test subjects like that... This was just one of many atrocities that american leaders should have been punished for.

I think it showed that American leaders were desperate to stop the senseless slaughter at any cost, although experimentation was a secondary factor. To paraphrase the Fallout 2 manual: in order to be on the side of good, sometimes you have to do very bad things.

Remove Guantanamo bay and alteast try to show that you care about human rights and your own precious "justice".

This might have made sense if it were an Abu Graihb reference. Also, "removing" Guantanamo bay, or any bay, from the rest of the land mass it's attached to probably isn't possible with current technology. Unless, of course, you want us to use nukes to do it. I also like the way you phrased it, as if I could do something about it even if I wanted to.