Open Forum: A Challenge

Comment on events and happenings in the Fallout community.
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MRhappy
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Post by MRhappy »

PsychoSniper wrote:MRhappy, that was an exellent post.


First, the BOS doesnt suck :p .

its the crappy spinoff games that have made use of it, and the resulting shit, that suclks :p .



As far as the destructable enviroments, once again hell yes.

You want in a locked door.

Your lockpick skill sucks.

You should have the option to shoot the door open, bash it with a sledge, or use a crowbar.

Plus theres explosives.

hah, for some reason I just didnt like them that much. They were kinda douchebags as well. I did like the music that played outside the base tho.

About destructable environments, definately. There are plently of tactical applictations. Blasting away at someone's cover, blowing away supports for a house, causing it to collapse, destroying computers with info, causing distractions, etc. I read in some interview about a game called dropship, where you are in space and can shoot away glass windows dividing space from the interior of a ship. Takes care of enemies, but your teamates as well.

As I like the idea of blowing down a door. If you want to make an entrance, its the way to go, but its loud. It doesnt make lockpicking obsolete though, because not all doors can be blown down, if you want to go in subtly, lockpicking is the way.

I think it is a silly trying to argue RT makes TB obsolete, as if RT is some sort of progression from TB. First, there have been RT games just as Long as TB games. Second, they both ofer different things, have different strengths.
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Post by Slaughter_Manslaught »

MRhappy wrote:Allrighty. If you are one of those people who thinks that a game with TB combat cannot possibly succeed in todays market, there are two things you should consider.

Number One: you probably have an undersized member. thankyouverymuch


Number two: How mainstream gamers percieve TB combat vs. what potential a TB system has, what it can do, and good TB games. I 'll tell you what I mean. Fallout was the first game I played and enjoyed that had TB combat. Fallout is not the best example of this system, but its not terrible, and is fun, as long as you are not a moron and make sure the combat speed is all the way up.

But any way. What impressed me? The "tactics" in aiming at different body parts and being able to move around, and of course the bloody animations. LOL. Of course calling aiming for different body parts excellent tactics is a bit of a strench. But when you consider the experience I had with other TB games, this is understandable. Most games of this sort, you were rooted to the spot. And then it proceeded.

Me: attack chosen from a few all of which have similar effects > MISSs
Opponent: attack one hit point
(continue until massive critical, where the orc falls over bloodlessly then disappears)

This is called not taking advantage of the advantages of turn based combat (I'm sure you saw that in your minds eye). No wonder I was impressed by Fallout. And the thing is, I'm sure this is how many perceive TB.

When I showed the fallout combat to some of my friends how played mostly sports action games and previously had no interest in tb games, they were impressed for the same reasons. They had never heard of things like action points and hadnt considered the advantages that tb combat can have (BTW, if you cant see that TB combat can do things that RT cannot, like allowing for more application of character skill and theoretically unlimited tactical options, reconsider your life plz) . When I had seen games like Silent storm and JA2, the sorts of games most people never hear about, I was even more impressed with the tactical options. How awesome would those things be in FO3 combat? Totally awesome.

Have you played recent “mainstream� TB games, like that LOTR THE THIRD FUGGIN AGE? Its no surprise that they flopped. Dumbing down tb combat is usually a bad idea, because you are taking away from its advantages.

I do like fallout combat, and its possible that adding to much more in the way of tactics would mess up its simple beauty. But there are plenty things that could be added to Fallout combat that could make it appeal to mainstream gamers, and many of them to me. Cinematic camera swings, destructible environments a la that lobby scene in the matrix, ability to target non living things, crouching, going prone, a cover/interruption system, ability to change cone of burst weapons, etc. I will probably come up with more later, so brace for awesome.

Also, imagine FO combat in real time. It would have sucked some significant ass. There are games for that kind of stuff, and fallout is not one of them, moorons. For one thing, tb applied the character’s skills very nicely, in real time it would have been about your skill. TB also lengthened combat, it would have been over real quick in real time, as many enemies took only one or two shots. In real time, it would have been a massive clickfest. Again, maybe in an action game.

There are also many silly misconceptions considering game combat. One is that RT is more realistic. Not really. Of course, in real life you don’t have time to plan out each of your moves, but you also don’t stand right in front of a guy blasting away in his general direction (while he is doing the same to you) until somebody dies. RT may look more realistic, or at least cinematic, but TB is probably a better simulation of the tactics and all the combat skill that you don’t have. In the end they are both abstractions, so your argument fails. Another misconception is that RT is obviously more exciting. But says who? You fail too.

Even Todd Howard once had a few words to say on this matter in a fun interview:
Whilst every fan tends to have a different idea of what precisely Fallout 3 should be, there are a few things that most of us are unified on. Are you aware of the strong desires for turn-based combat and the classic 3/4 top-down viewpoint? Do you think pure turn-based combat in an RPG is viable in today's market?

Todd: Yes, of course we've heard many of the old-school fans regarding the view and combat resolution. What's viable today? Certainly turn-based combat limits your audience to a small number, but I do find that audiences will come if your game is good enough and the presentation is superb. Ultimately we'll do what we think will be the most fun.
Of course, completely ambiguous, and I have a good guess of what Todd thinks is most fun and its not TB combat, but even he said that if its good enough the audiences will come.

Also, turn based internet flash games (like strategy war or something and that gladiator game) are pretty popular. Just as a side note.
But, I do agree that fallout was not defined by its combat. It was still a part though, as fallout ultimately was a sum of its parts. It was everything that came together so smoothly that is its lasting appeal. I would say that, unlike many games of the time, fallout is still plenty viable today. What’s every 14 year olds favorite RPG these days? KOTOR (or maybe Oblivion). Yeah, I know, LOL. And kotor did a lot less than fallout.

But lets talk about other things that I’m afraid of Bethesda considering not viable today:

FIGURING THINGS OUT ON YOUR OWN: is what you had to do a lot in fallout. There were no journal entries for hints, no pop ups and quest arrows guiding every step of your way. You had to go on the clues you had, and there were multiply ways that you could be lead to.

CHOICES AND CONSEQUENCES: One very sad day iI saw someone write on a forum. “GAWD I hated Jade Empire, I hated having to reload to see all the choices erswews.� Now I have never played said game, but that’s not the point. Games today seem to be made for people who play it once through to see everything. You can join one faction, but its isolated from the world, so you can be the king of all of them. No world reaction to your actions. ‘A choice without a consequence isnt really a choice� – A wise man.

DETAILS: Im sure bethesda is going to do something like make universal ammo, or get rid of radiation or dehydration, or make the world scaled down so you can walk from town to town in hour. They should be adding details, nuances of gameplay to consider, not removing them.

DIALOGUE: After Obivions dialogue, who isnt?

50’s THEME: Im sure they’ll get the “grittyness�, but not sure not the nuclear scare theme, 50s culture etc. Plus the Brotherhood of steal sux.

Again, I will probably think of more things to add later, so have fun.

good night. and good luck.
Hmm, you had a interesting point. We all like TB here, but if I could choose a non-tb system on combat, it would be FOT's CTB.
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Post by MRhappy »

Hmm, you had a interesting point.
What, the whole thing? That was like 50 points :drunk:
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Post by PsychoSniper »

MRhappy wrote:
Hmm, you had a interesting point.
What, the whole thing? That was like 50 points :drunk:

Indeed.


:chew:
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Post by Slaughter_Manslaught »

PsychoSniper wrote:
MRhappy wrote:
Hmm, you had a interesting point.
What, the whole thing? That was like 50 points :drunk:

Indeed.


:chew:
I'm damn lazy, and I don't wana write right now. I'll make bettah coments later.
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Post by jetbaby »

Lawl BOS sucks. Try again. Some decent bits in there.
off topic? OMG YOU'VE BEEN CENSORED... yet you're still posting. MYSTARY!!!!

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Post by PsychoSniper »

I think what he meant (and what I KNOW I meant :p ) was the BOS itself, not the spinoffs.

The BOS, as a subculture like the scavs, or regulators, or children of the cathedral, all represent verious archtypes of survivor communities, and are all important to FO in their own way.

BOS - military and or survivalists

Scavs - picking the wastes clean, one room at a time

Regulators - We got teh gunz. Do what we say or die

CoC - We r teh true religon. Durka durka.
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Post by jetbaby »

That's exactly what I was referring to. He stated that the Brotherhood of Steel "sux." The spinoffs do, yes, but the Brotherhood itself was one of, if not the, best faction in the game.
off topic? OMG YOU'VE BEEN CENSORED... yet you're still posting. MYSTARY!!!!

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Post by PsychoSniper »

Ah, k, gotcha.
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Post by MRhappy »

Well, I was exaggerating. The faction itself was constructed and thought out well, and that was good. And again, good music. Their "atmosphere" didnt really do it for me though.
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Post by St. Toxic »

So to anyone reading this, I pose this challenge: Prove to me that turn-based combat, or even any other aspect of Fallout gameplay, is not marketable.
Barrels of fun. Shame that we're beyond turn-based combat at this point, as the gameplay won't be cursor based ( we all know cursor based games don't have any market whatsoever ), but nevertheless fun.
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Post by PsychoSniper »

How is cursor based gameplay obsolete ?

It's simply something that many game marketers have not botherd with latley.

Heres some past cursor based games

Fallout
Fallout 2
Starfleed commad series (based off of a tabletop startrek game, starfleet battles)
Command and Conquer
Age of Empires
Empire Earth
Startrek: Armada and armada 2
Actualy, the majority of the RTS Genre is RTS, as well as the majority of the better RPGs on the market, even some of the dungeon crawl games like dungeon siege is cursor based.


I know you're just being cynical Toxic, but the fact is that cursor based games have been widley popular.
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Post by Thor Kaufman »

nigga please

What Toxic is getting at is, that there not many consoles with mouse support
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Post by PsychoSniper »

Ah, right, I frogot, bethesda makes CONSOLE games for CONSOLE KIDDIES, and does a poor job porting them to PC, then blackballs sites that call them on this.


TY for giving me a reality check.
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Post by Blank »

now, I haven't read the six pages of responses so I may be saying something that has already been said so forgive me if I do.

Fallout 1 & 2 had only one flaw. They didn't have enough ads. Not enough people knew about this masterpiece. Even today, I know plenty of people that would drop their consoles if they knew about these games. But I can't show them because you can't buy either fallout 1 or 2 from our local retailers.
But back to what I was saying, if more people knew about fallout when it came out. We would be seeing more games like them. to this day the closest games to them that I have seen were KOTOR 1 & 2. And they can barely compare.
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Post by Mismatch »

this left me dumbfounded:
PsychoSniper wrote:the majority of the RTS Genre is RTS
And cursor based does tend to be the best option.
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Post by PsychoSniper »

cursor based I meant, lol.

i R teh typo man.


Tho based on that typo, its still true, sorta, as the majority of RTS series are RTS (C&C renegade anyone ? :p )
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Post by wamingo »

PsychoSniper wrote:How is cursor based gameplay obsolete ?
...
but the fact is that cursor based games have been widley popular.
Obsolete is stretching it a lot. There will always be cursor games. But the market -is- declining. All these console platforms are splitting up consumers in a big way, and it forces developers to create generic games that works on all or at least a majority of them - which means retardedly simple ~8 button controls for everyone. It sucks, but it's reality.

In all likeliness a proper FO sequel will cost quite a bit of money to develop, and require a lot of sold copies to break even. If you slap TB on the box a lot consumers will steer away from it by automatic.
Regardless of how good it will be, the kind of people on these forums will not make the blunt of the sales that FO3 would need. Therefor TB is a pretty big gamble. Luckily a CTB or similar system won't annoy anyone, much. And much less than anyone here claims.

Jagged Alliance is a good example of how good TB can be, yeah. But it is also a perfect example of how popular TB is not.
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Post by PsychoSniper »

How is the market declining ?

They produces simply arnt making anything but clickfests and crappy xbox ports these days.
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Post by Mismatch »

PsychoSniper wrote:How is the market declining ?

They produces simply arnt making anything but clickfests and crappy xbox ports these days.
Yeah, it isn't declining. That's just total bullshit.
The amount of personal computers is most certainly increasing every month.

The issue here is that devs try to release games on every platform which leads to crappy games.
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