Daily Forum Stuff 08.07

Killzig · Post by **Killzig** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:21 pm

[ -> N/A]

Today Sawyer elaborated on <a href="http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#522151" target=_blank>the mechanics skills</a> being little more than an amalgamation of FO's original repair skill with a few other bits tossed in. This seems like a more efficient way of handling all things mechanical and points to his desire to make these non combat skills a bit more viable. However, I wonder if a distinction will be made between mechanical and electrical skills?

Answers a quick question about perk requirements <A href="http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#522203" target=_blank>here</a>.

<blockquote>

Q: Will these (perk skill requirements) be based on the actual points you put into a skill or will the stat modifiers come into play here?



Sawyer: Base value. Points spent + Tag + Skill++ perk.

</blockquote>

Next up, Sawyer takes on <a href="http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=330" target=_blank>a rather hostile poster</a> who still believes the nerfing of the gifted trait is going to lead Fallout to the same end as the Fiat Voluntas Tua portion in A Canticle For Liebowitz (i.e. DOOM!) ...

Sawyer even gets a little peeved at the dude capping off his rebuttal with an example simple enough even I can understand.

<blockquote>

A trait should be taken because it fits the player's character choice, not because it provides a clear, overpowering benefit. That is why it is a trait, not a perk. This is really simple, KIA. I'll try to break it down.

<li> Trait A: You gain +1 to Action Points and suffer a -5% chance to hit.

<li> Trait B: You gain +10 to Medic and suffer -10 to Melee.

<li> Trait C: You gain +12 stat points and lose 50 lbs. of carry weight.

If a player does not take Trait C, they are ripping themselves off. It is disadvantageous to take Trait A and Trait B because Trait C is so good. With +12 stat points, you could easily gain the ST to make up for the carry weight penalty, the AG to for the Action Points of A, and the IN for the bonus to Medic.

So now, I have essentially told the player, "You can take Trait B: Pacifist Doctor Guy, but you're shooting yourself in the foot if you do. So, even though it's more appropriate for your doctor character to take Pacifist Doctor Guy, taking Trait C: Awesomeness With a Weak Back, is going to make your character far better, overall."

That's not really expanding player choice, because the designer has decided to effectively punish people for taking weaker traits -- even if it's thematically appropriate. In Tiffin's thread, there's a sea of responses full of Gifted. It hardly speaks to the diversity you seem to believe Fallout 2's system promotes.</blockquote>

And on a less interesting note, there's a lively discussion going on <a href="http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#522202" target=_blank>tossing about ideas for Power Armor 3</a>. He comments on how PA should have its own very hefty weight on account of the strength bonus it provides, the player should take a large penalty when sneaking while wearing it, and he also makes an observation on the switch from a full body suit of armor type inventory to a head/body 2-piece system.

Sawyer elaborates some on the AYyyyyy! Perk:

<blockquote>

It requires you to actually punch or kick the object, which makes noise. Fallout characters have a set hearing range, and it's relatively easy to assign sound levels to each action. If the radii of the sound level and the hearing range overlap, the action is heard by the character. If you're trying to be stealthy, this could be problematic. It also automatically opens the door/container (if successful), which could set off traps on them or put you face to face with some bad guy.

E.g.: Frank is sneaking through Vault 82 which is overrun by super mutants. He comes to a locked door, takes out his trusty lockpicks, and goes to work. The difficulty of the door's lock is 85. Frank's skill is 78. He can't open the door. Since this is a pass/fail system, no amount of reloading is going to solve the problem. However, he has Ayyyyyy!, so he targets the door with a punch. BAM! His Luck, 6, is multiplied by two and added to 78. His modified Lockpick skill of 90 opens the door. Ed the Super Mutant is six hexes away and hears the door being punched. He turns around to see a dopey looking human with his fist in the air.

But hey, at least the door is open.</blockquote>

And some combat skills talk...

<blockquote>

I've suggested merging Throwing with Melee. Melee gets a variety of powered and un-powered weapons that can be used close or at range. Damage is the result of the weapon's inherent deadliness + wielder ST or the result of powered damage (explosions, electric shocks, etc.).

Melee is, not coincidentally, intended to be a middle ground between the "no-ammo", low damage, no maintenance, ultra flexible unarmed attacks and the ammo-driven, high damage, high maintenance, inflexible firearms.</blockquote>

Courtesy of Briosafreak on <a href="http://www.nma-fallout.com" target=_blank>NMA</a>.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 2:44 pm

JE wrote:E.g.: Frank is sneaking through Vault 82 which is overrun by super mutants. He comes to a locked door, takes out his trusty lockpicks, and goes to work. The difficulty of the door's lock is 85. Frank's skill is 78. He can't open the door. Since this is a pass/fail system, no amount of reloading is going to solve the problem.

A pass/fail system? That doesn't sound too bad... though it might take some fun out of the game. I'm not too sure about this.

Jimmyjay86 · Post by **Jimmyjay86** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 2:57 pm

J.E. Sawyer wrote:It requires you to actually punch or kick the object, which makes noise. Fallout characters have a set hearing range, and it's relatively easy to assign sound levels to each action. If the radii of the sound level and the hearing range overlap, the action is heard by the character. If you're trying to be stealthy, this could be problematic. It also automatically opens the door/container (if successful), which could set off traps on them or put you face to face with some bad guy.

E.g.: Frank is sneaking through Vault 82 which is overrun by super mutants. He comes to a locked door, takes out his trusty lockpicks, and goes to work. The difficulty of the door's lock is 85. Frank's skill is 78. He can't open the door. Since this is a pass/fail system, no amount of reloading is going to solve the problem. However, he has Ayyyyyy!, so he targets the door with a punch. BAM! His Luck, 6, is multiplied by two and added to 78. His modified Lockpick skill of 90 opens the door. Ed the Super Mutant is six hexes away and hears the door being punched. He turns around to see a dopey looking human with his fist in the air.

But hey, at least the door is open.

Hmm, I would like it better if certain doors such as steel doors would need several power punches to progressively weaken it. So a door would have another variable associated with it besides the lock which would be something like a strength. The door's strength would allow it to withstand damage by explosions or melee attacks. But certain attacks like bullets or bare fists/kicks may not have any effect.

pnutz · Post by **pnutz** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 3:58 pm

I don't think the steel door is what would be weakening if you punched it several times.

And why is kicking open a door a perk? and why is it dependent on luck? Maybe if you were kicking a generator or computer in the hopes of somehow fixing it, then this makes sense (bonus to mechanics).

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 4:33 pm

You go "damn why won't this stupid thing work lol" and then give it a good kick. At least that's what I think it means.

Briareus · Post by **Briareus** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:04 pm

pnutz wrote:And why is kicking open a door a perk? and why is it dependent on luck?

Watch the intro to Happy Days. A locker that Richie can't open is punched with the bottom of Fonzy's fist and it opens. AYyyyyy!

pnutz · Post by **pnutz** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:27 pm

Ooohh, I see.
So is Ehyyyyyyyy....
not Ayyyyy!!!!

Jimmyjay86 · Post by **Jimmyjay86** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 5:48 pm

pnutz wrote:Ooohh, I see.
So is Ehyyyyyyyy....
not Ayyyyy!!!!

Exactly! But isn't that perk, ummm....nevermind.

Inin · Post by **Inin** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 7:24 pm

I think I'll finish JJ86's sentence:

"Exactly! But isn't that perk, ummm....Fucking Stupid?"

I apologize if that isn't what you were thinking JJ. It is however, precisely what came to my mind when I read your post.

-Inin

pnutz · Post by **pnutz** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 7:48 pm

Hey, its a 70's take on the 50's

...

Jed · Post by **Jed** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 6:48 am

Y'know, it's now JE's game or whatever, so he can do as he pleases, and I really don't care that gifted isn't going to be in, or will be nerfed or whatever, but JE's argument is pure bullshit:

JE wrote:Trait C: You gain +12 stat points and lose 50 lbs. of carry weight.

There is no fucking trait in the game that comes anywhere near that unbalanced!
Gifted- Primary stats +1 all, but skills down from 5% to 10% (depends on various conditions) and -5 skill points per experience level.
That's a pretty serious tradeoff. Skill points can't be recouped with +1 to each stat the way the carry weight can be in JE's strawman "trait C."

Hokkien · Post by **Hokkien** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 8:44 am

^Uhh if you put 4 of your 7 extra skill points into intelligence, then put the other three in your primary skill "bracket," then gifted IS totally unbalanced, becasuse the advantage >>>>>>> the disadvantage.

Really, the gifted trait is unbalanced... I'll mourn that I can't have 6s instead of 5s, but whoop de doo... no abusing.

Sol Invictus · Post by **Sol Invictus** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:12 am

Hey, its a 70's take on the 50's

You bring up an interesting point. Most people don't understand that Fallout is a 50's take on the future.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:21 am

Seriously, guys. Try playing the same character, once with gifted and once without. I think you probably won't see all that much of a difference. I know I haven't.

Post by **DarkUnderlord** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:31 am

Droppings was a better title for these threads. It had teh funnee++

Exitium wrote:You bring up an interesting point. Most people don't understand that Fallout is a 50's take on the future.

No, some people seem completely oblivious to that. On one hand arguing "but it's not in the 50's OMFG11!" conveniently ignoring the severe lack of Deathclaws, Miniguns, Plasma Rifles, Laser Rifles, Laser Gatling Guns and other assorted equipment that is not in the 50's either.

It's not based so much on the 50's per say, but on what people in the 50's thought the future would be like.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:02 pm

Doyle wrote:Seriously, guys. Try playing the same character, once with gifted and once without. I think you probably won't see all that much of a difference. I know I haven't.

That's like saying no traits make much of a difference. Granted, Gifted is overrated, but without a doubt it's still the best trait. I think the solution is not in toning it down but simply making other traits a lot better.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:40 pm

Well, no not really Atoga. Fast shot makes a clear difference because it completely removes one ability from the game. Night Person makes a difference because it basically reverses the day/night penalties. However, Gifted doesn't really make it possible to play any character types you couldn't already play, so I believe that trait's affect is in many ways more subtle. Sure, it may seem like it has a clear benefit, but when 50% of that benefit has to be used to partially compensate for the drawback (+3 to In), how great is it really?

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:42 pm

The difference between 3 and a 10 in one stat is, I think, a pretty noticeable benefit.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:49 pm

Umm, maybe, but what impact will that have on your game? If you aren't going to be pouring skill points into relevant skills -- and clearly you won't be otherwise the stat wouldn't be three -- then you're wasting a lot of that potential. I don't see how the ability to basically waste skill points unbalances the game.

bloodbathmaster2 · Post by **bloodbathmaster2** » Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:56 am

Not only is the Gifted trait unbalanced, it makes no sense. The simple fact that the vault dweller starts off with 5 additional stat points to put stats beyond average makes him above average, or rather 'gifted.' Picking the Gifted trait therefore makes him EXTREMELY gifted. Its not really fair to let someone start the game born extremely gifted, is it?

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