Duck and Cover

I'm starting this topic to discuss the differences between real-time and turn-based combat, how they would relate to the fallout games, and the pros and cons of each. Keep in mind this is not a flame post. Please refrain from comments such as "real time sucks, it wouldn't be fallout, and Anyone who likes [enter combat type here] sucks". They've all been heard before and I just want to compare the two combat styles. Real-time has the benefit of adding a touch of realism, while turn-based gives you time to think out your strategy. I'll let the threads go from there.

Niether Realtime combat or turn based combat are satisfactory.

With real time combat you become so busy with operating your character that the game boils down to your skill and speed at positioning a cursor and pressing the fire button..... tiresome!


Turn based combat is so static that it sometimes takes forever to get through a round of combat. You have all the time in the world to dink around you cant move much because that eats the action points you need to fire back....boring!


I much prefer the CTB system that Fallout Tactics uses to either. It is not real time and it is not Turn based. Your character can move without eating up action points, only firing or actions other than movement in combat eats action points. All the perks and skills are used as in turn based all you need to do is designate a target and you character will fire at the selected enemy until its dead. if you dont have time to designate another target the entity will find a close in target and start shooting whe it enters the threshold of engagement dictated by your 'sentry mode' setting.


The problem is that if Fallout3 is first person or 3rd personTurn based combat would be absolutely absurd and Real time combat causes you to get tunnel vision.

Only CTB has the possibility of having some of the good elements of Turn based combined with the faster action of Real time. However implementing some alternate to real time or turn based combat is going to be a tough nut to crack.




A turn based system of combat used in old FRP games is giving the character both movement and action points, The combat sequence goes something like this.

Start


Movement (Characters and enemies move [you can save your movement for the melee phase])

Initiative roll (all Characters and enemies roll to see who fires first)

Firing phase (All characters and enemies fire in turn)

Fire resolution (damage is calculated and applied)

Movement to melee (All players that have not fired and still have movement points may move and make a melee attack)

Melee initiative roll (who strikes first)

Melee attack phase (melee attacks are made)

Melee resolution phase


Back to start

CTB is like playing Dungeon Siege you just sit back and watch your characters do all the work with only the occasional interferance from you (which ususally causes someone to get killed) not very involving at all. RT is certainly involving but for any game where you have control of more than one character it becomes impractical unless you're an octupus with eight arms. RT belongs to FPS games or games where you only have control of the main character.

TB at least lets you get involved in the game without you missing half the game while you try and keep your party out of a mine field etc.

The easiest way to make TB more interesting is to simply add the option for timed rounds, where you only have a limited time to make your decisions and give your orders before it's your opponents turn.

I think a good way to play turn-based combat is if you could somehow take turns at the same time. This would cut down on whiners complaining about things being boring.

Wow....
CTB was one of my least favorite things about FO: T
The only time I ever used that was when I had a nice firing squad up. I think it detracts from the strategy more than adding. CTB is fun to have if you want it, but you definitly need the main system to be TB.


....
OH SHIT I HEAR THE ICE CREAM TRUCK!!!!!111!1111oneone



And when the hell did you come back, mr man?

are you talking to me
i said are you talking to me
i dont see anyone else around here
so you must be talking to me
or the other men
okay

I guess we play CTB based a little different. I use formations and groups of two shooters for a 6 characters squad.

WOW CTB is one of my favorite things about FOT.


In assaulting a point target I move one group up and designate a single target for group 1 on F7, Hit F8 for group 2 and move them into crossfire position and drop them into kneeling or prone position and designate their fire. Whichever group needs assistance gets backup from group 3 on F9. Sometimes you get pretty busy especially if one of your characters gets drilled hard and you have to put that group on a retreat path. Then you will have to rescue that group with another.

Yes CTB gets busy but because its Isometric you can see the action unless you have members of the squad working another area of the map simultaniously. I find it pretty easy to manage but then again I have always been a fan of TAC games. Its only a bad system for people that cant walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

For Turn Based I like the time limit idea but also I would like to separate action points for movement FROM action points for firing and skill use.

But how can any of this be implimented if the game is 1st person or 3rd

..
puke

uhm excuse me what did you say oh I see

In assaulting a

pretty

person

you are unamerican

stop spamming briosafrek, I know your game

xbow wrote:I guess we play CTB based a little different. I use formations and groups of two shooters for a 6 characters squad.

WOW CTB is one of my favorite things about FOT.

I hate it, first time I played FOT I played through in CTB got 2/3rds of the way through the main campaign got bored, uninstalled and didn't touch it again for 5 months.

xbow wrote:Yes CTB gets busy but because its Isometric you can see the action unless you have members of the squad working another area of the map simultaniously. I find it pretty easy to manage but then again I have always been a fan of TAC games. Its only a bad system for people that cant walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

It's not because the fact it can get busy that I don't like it, but because it can pretty much play itself without me in CTB.

xbow wrote:But how can any of this be implimented if the game is 1st person or 3rd

First person and real time go together, but in third person tb is still valid, after all third person is just the isometric view from a different angle perhaps in third person TB when combat starts the camera could zoom out to something close to the isometric view?

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:It's not because the fact it can get busy that I don't like it, but because it can pretty much play itself without me in CTB.

Well shucks, Its hard to counter that statment with anything but...I agree.
CTB can get that way. primarily because its hard to directly designate a target with everything moving around.

What I call a distant third person perspective with a good fast scan left/right function and perhaps the ability to view the world from the distant 3rd person perspective of any of your NPC's might be the ticket. the further back the camera the better turn based looks. A good combat control screen like fallout2, a time limit to act, movment points and action points and a few other bells and whistles like a FOT style minmap makes turn based look real good again



oh! I almost forgot Requium I made some sprites from those CAD imges you posted a link to, one of which is a very fallouty cannon you want them?

Briosafreak


Thanks man, at the end of that link was a fucking-a skippy good read!!

that POV might be workable...

Play Silent Storm and then tell me third-person 3D and turn-based don't suite together.

Both the old Van Buren from BIS and the new PA RPG from Troika have a lot to do with the camera in Silent Storm, good example.

ALERT ALERT ENTER YOUR HOMES

Eh, the camera usually has to be over the shoulder if it is not overhead. Controlling the camera can be quite the chore when you throw in that Z-axis, mainly because the mouse only calculates two axis', not three. You could use your other hand for your keyboard in order to zoom in or zoom out, but I prefer sticking to my mouse for the most part.

I really don't think there is such thing as a combat style not being implementable in any view as long as you have a talented designer. Although first person turn-based would be almost impossible. I did like CTB, and I also liked turn based though. I don't think CTB takes away from strategy, although I will admit that it takes someone who can process information much faster. Although tactics are smaller scale, and can adapt much quicker to changes (most combat in Fallout) whereas strategy is much larger scale and doesn't have to be as flexible (risk) So, CTB belongs in a tactical game, and Turn Based belongs in a strategy game. I personaly do role-playing for a bit of escapeism, and I like a little bit of reality. So I like having to respond to the most imediate threat first, rather than being able to take the time and look at hit points, examine enemy weapons and so on and so forth. But in either system party members should be controlable in combat until they invent a better AI, I'm tired of having guys with rocket launchers going after deathclaws with knives, and guys with knives going after rats with rocket launchers

RT affords me no opportunity to sip my beer, WTF!