Big guns?....

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 4:10 pm

Radoteur wrote:Or if your a cheap bastard like me who uses the sun scorcher and a 10mm submachinegun until the smg stops doing damage, so I don't have to use ammo, decent ammo.

Psst, psst... Get yourself P90 and you NEVER stop doing damage with 10mm ;-)

Radoteur · Post by **Radoteur** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 9:11 pm

Where is this... P90? I want one! Must be either in San Francisco or NCR, right? I've practically been everywhere else.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 9:19 pm

Yeah, around NCR. I think the dealer that's actually inside the city frequently has them.

Strap · Post by **Strap** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:19 pm

vault 15, floor 3, one of the door gaurds towards the bottom left.

whats really wierd is that the p90 is loaded with 9mm, and when you run out, it reloads with 10mm.... odd

i think i bought a p90 somewere (cant remeber) and it always reloaded with 9mm... but maybe thats was just a dream.

ps: go check out my psycho model in the art forum! :roll:

Radoteur · Post by **Radoteur** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:07 pm

Yea, I got the same thing. I'm assuming that the P90 can use 9mm as well as 10mm, but I don't think it can use 9mm ball.

Armisael · Post by **Armisael** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:32 pm

Energy weapons aren't freely available from the start because there's just less of them. They were a relatively new technology when the bombs fell, and there weren't anywhere near as many of them manufactured as there were other, more conventional weapons.

I think I do see what you're saying; you should be able to specialise in a weapon right off the bat, and not have to raise other combat skills. But this is a post-apocalyptic setting, and to a degree, you should have to build your skills according to the resources that're available to you. If your idea were to be implemented, then you'd either have to start with a weapon based on your skills, which isn't always plausible (how would you justify giving a newly-started tribal character an energy weapon in the beginning, for example?), or you'd have to make the weapons much more common, which I think would spoil the game a lot more than it would improve it for reasons already given.

Just a side note - I think the reason there's so much more ammo and stuff in Fallout than in, say, Mad Max, is because the Fallout world isn't completely chaotic. There is manufacturing and construction going on, there are cities being established and people are being productive instead of driving around leeching the remaining pre-war resources and killing people for fun. I'd expect there to be more stuff available in Fallout 2, what with the expansion of NCR, the reopening of fuel and ore mining operations and the town-to-town trade. Sure it's a wasteland, but it's a more civilized wasteland.

axelgreese · Post by **axelgreese** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:54 pm

Armisael wrote:were a relatively new technology when the bombs fell, and there weren't anywhere near as many of them manufactured as there were other, more conventional weapons.

They were standard issue weapons iirc.

I think I do see what you're saying; you should be able to specialise in a weapon right off the bat, and not have to raise other combat skills. But this is a post-apocalyptic setting, and to a degree, you should have to build your skills according to the resources that're available to you.

This is rpg before PA, you shouldn't have to do anything. You should be able to make choices.

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:17 pm

paynetothemax wrote:[Energy Weapons] were standard issue weapons iirc.

Yes, for first-line US Army troops.

Personally, I think that a starting character in FO w/E-weapons tagged should have received a Laser Pistol and one unit (40 shots) of SEC to go w/it. What he/she did after that would have been up to him/her. Looking at the damage for a 10mm Pistol w/JHP ammo and a Laser Pistol you will notice that w/the modifiers for ammo figured in they are actually pretty competitive. Giving a Laser Pistol to a starting character w/a limited amount of ammo would have given them essentially no advantage, and -- IMHO -- would have made the whole "I came from a more-or-less cushy vault existance into the harsh Wasteland and had to adapt" theme a boost. (Why did Vault Security have a Mad-Max style shotgun?)

As it was, you could find a fully loaded Plasma Pistol in the sewers under Necropolis. This just wasn't enough. The last character I played in FO started out w/E-Weapons, Speech and Science tagged and she had to use every Guns and Bulllets she could find and pump some points into her un-tagged Small Guns skill to keep up, precisely because she wasn't using e-weapons.

I agree w/those of you who voiced dissent w/the Plasma Weapons. While they may/may not fit into the setting aesthetically, in the interest of the retro-future setting it should have been some sort of "atomic" weapon. The '50s were as bad about the word "atomic" as we today are about "plasma". (Besides, being irradiated by a weapon would have given people more to do w/their Rad-Away...)

OTB

axelgreese · Post by **axelgreese** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 12:09 am

That's kinda what I was trying to say. I didn't mean "lets let people start out godlike" I just want to be able to play a varied character everytime. Including using different weapons and tactics.

OTB wrote:I agree w/those of you who voiced dissent w/the Plasma Weapons. While they may/may not fit into the setting aesthetically, in the interest of the retro-future setting it should have been some sort of "atomic" weapon. The '50s were as bad about the word "atomic" as we today are about "plasma". (Besides, being irradiated by a weapon would have given people more to do w/their Rad-Away...)

In point of fact, I never really liked energy weapons at all, but I do accept that they are part of the Fallout universe. But again I would appreciate things like this which give the energy weapons more depth.

Armisael · Post by **Armisael** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 3:50 am

paynetothemax wrote:This is rpg before PA, you shouldn't have to do anything. You should be able to make choices.

It's not "RPG before PA". The game world is equally as important as the genre. In no game is every choice viable at any one time. You make choices, yeah - but you make them within the parameters of the game world, always. Energy weapons are supposed to be powerful, and they're supposed to be rare, and in the context of Fallout 2 (or probably even Fallout - why would a Vault have been supplied with military issue arms?), it makes no sense for the PC to start with them.

axelgreese · Post by **axelgreese** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 6:12 am

Armisael wrote:no game is every choice viable at any one time.

Exactly. That's what I'd like to see.

And yes it is rpg before PA. Someone who has lived in a vault all their lives can most certainly specialize in one type of training.

Energy weapons are supposed to be powerful, and they're supposed to be rare

Says who? Other weapons can be just as, if not more, powerful. If energy weapons are just supposed to be the biggest badest guns then why differnciate the weapon skills and just make energy weapons the top tier of weapons.

Armisael · Post by **Armisael** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 7:32 am

They're powerful by virtue of the fact that they're the most recent advancement in military technology. It was particularly noticable in Fallout, where energy weapons were head and shoulders above the other weapon types. It's not so noticable in Fallout 2 because there were nowhere near as many new energy weapons introduced as there were small/big guns, and the turbo plasma rifle actually lost its AP bonus. Energy weapons were meant to be strong, like big guns, but if you want to take advantage of them, you have to plan ahead and make sacrifices in other areas. Simple as that.

paynetothemax wrote:
Armisael wrote:no game is every choice viable at any one time.
Exactly. That's what I'd like to see.

But that's ridiculous. Certain choices should be more feasible than others, depending on the situation. That's the way it works in real life, and that's the way it always has been in games. What's the point of making choices if they're all just as viable as one another? Where's the thinking involved? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for someone to make a game where you can just blunder your way through making choices based on a whim.

axelgreese · Post by **axelgreese** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 7:49 am

Armisael wrote:They're powerful by virtue of the fact that they're the most recent advancement in military technology.

Doesn't matter how advanced the gun that fires it is, a bullet between the eyes will still kill you.

It was particularly noticable in Fallout, where energy weapons were head and shoulders above the other weapon types.

Just becasue the TPR was damn good doesn't mean each and every energy weapon was like that, the lazer pitol for example was not that great a gun, especailly in FO2 where by the time you get it it's completley obsolute.

Energy weapons were meant to be strong, like big guns,

At some point in the game EVERY weapon should be useful to extent. So that point is rather moot when you consider that yeah, combat shotguns are ment to be strong, the .223 pistol was ment to be strong. Small guns was ment to be strong, melee was ment to be strong, all weapon types were ment to be strong and usful in the later stages of the game. Albeit some many be stronger than others in end, but that easily compensated by making them weak in the beginning rather than the current choice of non-exsistant.

but if you want to take advantage of them, you have to plan ahead and make sacrifices in other areas. Simple as that.

Yeah exactly, now you're getting my point. By specilizing in energy weapons, in the beginning you'll be rather weak but in the end you'll be really powerful. Whereas if you chose to double both small guns and energy weapons you won't be as weak in the beginning but you won't be as strong in the end. Once again it's about choice.

Armisael wrote:But that's ridiculous.

No you are.

I like to see everything in the game have an affect. Futhermore, I don't want a "correct" way of playing. I want to be able to play the game anyway I choose. I don't want to be outright punished by playing the way I want to play or simply not allowed to play the way I want to.

Certain choices should be more feasible than others, depending on the situation.

Yes but not to the extent that there becomes a "correct" way of playing the game.

that's the way it always has been in games.

Oh well since it's never been done before, obviously it shouldn't be done.

What's the point of making choices if they're all just as viable as one another?

Varity. Repeat play throughs. Simple player pereferance. The list goes on.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for someone to make a game where you can just blunder your way through making choices based on a whim.

Why not? Sounds like a good game to me. Want to play the game way? Sure. Then go ahead. Sounds like fun to me. Especailly since the next time I play I could do it a different way.

Armisael · Post by **Armisael** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 8:26 am

I'll make this my last post here, I have a feeling this is about to descend into a grudge match.

I've never said anywhere that it should be impossible to play a certain way, but there should certainly be 'good' choices and 'bad' choices. Otherwise there's no thinking involved. If you want to make poor decisions, then that's fine, but the game will be more difficult, and so it should be. There doesn't need to be right or wrong ways of doing things, but there will always be better and worse ways of doing things. If there were no bad choices then there wouldn't be any challenge. The game wouldn't make you think. That sounds like a pretty poor game to me - I like considering things before I make a decision.

That said, there is nothing wrong with choosing a more difficult route if that's what you like. Ranged combat is usually more effective than melee combat in Fallout, but that doesn't playing a melee character is wrong. And you can specialise only in energy weapons, never putting a point into more conventional weapon skills if that's what you want to do, but you'll just have to put up with using a conventional weapon poorly until you find an energy weapon you can use well.

But the game world certainly shouldn't have to conform to whatever role you want to play. You've got that the wrong way around.

Lunchmeat · Post by **Lunchmeat** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 8:38 am

So, you're saying that theres less thinking involved in a choice where there is no clear "right" path than there is in a choice where the "right" path is defined? Fuzzy logic to me.

axelgreese · Post by **axelgreese** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 8:55 am

Armisael wrote:I'll make this my last post here, I have a feeling this is about to descend into a grudge match.

Suit yourself.

I've never said anywhere that it should be impossible to play a certain way, but there should certainly be 'good' choices and 'bad' choices.

Yes there should good and bad choices. Like for example, armed only with a butter knife and wearing only your superman underroos you shouldn't go fight the dragon. That would be bad. But that doesn't mean specializing in butter knife fighting should be bad. Sure you can make bad choices BUT you should have "bad" ways to role play your character. Deciding which skills you want to specialize in has nothing to do with "goo" and "bad" it has to do with "hmm do I want to play as the theif or do I want to as Rambo?" it's NOT "hmm do I want to do it the wrong way or the right way?"

Otherwise there's no thinking involved.

Riduculas! Deciding how you want to play the role given requires a lot thought.

If you want to make poor decisions, then that's fine, but the game will be more difficult, and so it should be.

Yeah like deciding to fight the big bad bear earily on. NOT like deciding to play as a no combat Diplimat.

There doesn't need to be right or wrong ways of doing things

Exactly.

, but there will always be better and worse ways of doing things.

In terms of when to tackel certain quest? Sure. In terms of how you want to roleplay your character? No.

If there were no bad choices then there wouldn't be any challenge. The game wouldn't make you think.

Yeah like fighting the cyborg ninjas too early or deciding to level up before you take on the magic bean stalk. NOT like deciding you want to play as a throwing expert so you can win extra money in bars at throwing contest.

That sounds like a pretty poor game to me - I like considering things before I make a decision.

Well you just contradicted yourself. You like options to consider, but you prefer that the "correct" answers to your options be predetermined. Sounds like a piece of shit to me.

Sure you shold take the high level quest of convinceing the mayor to lower the drinking age when you are too low a level to do it right but that doesn't mean you can't play as gun slinging knitter.

That said, there is nothing wrong with choosing a more difficult route if that's what you like.

In terms of balance one is going to be better than the other BUT only at certain stages of the game. For example at the earily stages of the game, melee or unarmed is the best because ammo is scare and in contrast at the end energy weapons are the best, Because skill is high and ammo is available and those weapons at that stage are powerful.

Ranged combat is usually more effective than melee combat in Fallout, but that doesn't playing a melee character is wrong.

Well that's your opinion. Melee and unarmed can be just as effective as a ranged character. AND on top of that you don't HAVE to fight. Provided you run away from encounters, you can be a real diplomat character.

And you can specialise only in energy weapons, never putting a point into more conventional weapon skills if that's what you want to do, but you'll just have to put up with using a conventional weapon poorly until you find an energy weapon you can use well.

Exactly my point. Why shouldn't it be you have to put up with a poor energy weapon rather than a poor conventional weapon? There is no reason. They just forced you to by not putting any energy weapons in the beginning of the game.

But the game world certainly shouldn't have to conform to whatever role you want to play.

It's a ROLEplaying game. You play the role. NOT the game designers. You play the role. You should be able to play the role. You should be able to do what you want. You shouldn't be limited by arbitary means. Rather than put weak energy weapons in the beginning they didn't put in any at all.

requiem_for_a_starfury · Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:15 am

paynetothemax wrote:In terms of balance one is going to be better than the other BUT only at certain stages of the game. For example at the earily stages of the game, melee or unarmed is the best because ammo is scare and in contrast at the end energy weapons are the best, Because skill is high and ammo is available and those weapons at that stage are powerful.

One of the reasons I think they should do away with the energy weapons skill and just make it a special trait to be learned, like Gecko skinning, if you've already gained a certain level of skill with firearms then it shouldn't really matter if it's a slug thrower or laser pistol in your pocket. All that's really different about the energy weapons skill is that you know how to take care of your weapon, something that can be tied into repair and science skills and/or a special trait.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 11:00 am

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote:One of the reasons I think they should do away with the energy weapons skill and just make it a special trait to be learned, like Gecko skinning, if you've already gained a certain level of skill with firearms then it shouldn't really matter if it's a slug thrower or laser pistol in your pocket. All that's really different about the energy weapons skill is that you know how to take care of your weapon, something that can be tied into repair and science skills and/or a special trait.

I'm not to sure about that. I always thought of the energy weapons skill as some kind of special reason to be carrying round the best weapons in the game and using them well. It might be a bit shitty if you're on the oil rig and can't find a decent small gun in sight with your small guns skill high and other weapons skills low.

But it shouldn't really be like that. Even with big guns the pay-off is pretty good (in fallout and fallout 2) but energy weapons in fallout didn't seem to have that much ammo, and fallout 2 you needed to be a higher level to get to them early on (sierra army depot). I think they could mabye replace small guns with single-handed guns like smgs, pistols and stuff and replace energy weapons with two-handed weapons like shotguns and rifles. Big guns can be left because they operate differently (though we don't know how energy weapons work)

This new way could split up all the energy weapons. Stuff like the laser minigun and plasma rifle can go into big guns, laser rifles can go into two handed guns and pistols get...the pistols?

Not sure if this would work though and it could screw up the gameplay, but it seems stupid that firing a pistol is the same as firing a sniper rifle while you need a whole new skill to fire a laser pistol.

requiem_for_a_starfury · Sat Mar 22, 2003 12:29 pm

Pyro wrote:But it shouldn't really be like that. Even with big guns the pay-off is pretty good (in fallout and fallout 2) but energy weapons in fallout didn't seem to have that much ammo, and fallout 2 you needed to be a higher level to get to them early on (sierra army depot). I think they could mabye replace small guns with single-handed guns like smgs, pistols and stuff and replace energy weapons with two-handed weapons like shotguns and rifles. Big guns can be left because they operate differently (though we don't know how energy weapons work)

This new way could split up all the energy weapons. Stuff like the laser minigun and plasma rifle can go into big guns, laser rifles can go into two handed guns and pistols get...the pistols?

Not sure if this would work though and it could screw up the gameplay, but it seems stupid that firing a pistol is the same as firing a sniper rifle while you need a whole new skill to fire a laser pistol.

Hmm I suggested something similar in this thread here and here didn't go over too well with everyone. : )

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 3:14 pm

requiem_for_a_starfury wrote: Hmm I suggested something similar in this thread here and here didn't go over too well with everyone. : )

I agree with most of your comments. Since keeping your guns in good shape doesn't actually exist in the game, this shouldn't really come into play. All it is is aiming and firing. Firing and reloading a 9mm pistol is different from a shotgun or a sniper rifle, but I doubt it's very different from a laser pistol (it looks like a silver glock with some fairy lights on it)

What would be nice though would be if they added more big guns, like fot. There seems to be a lot of small guns with little differences but only a few big guns that have totally different effects (flamer, minigun, rpg etc.) Also making throwing useful would be nice (mabye think about 'throwing' objects around, mabye even enemys?)

Perhaps they could also think off making the sniper rifle a big gun and change it to a 1-bullet magazine with a higher damage rate.