J.E. Sawyer on Fallout 3

avenger69ie · Post by **avenger69ie** » Sun May 18, 2003 9:44 pm

if interplay still stand by that "by gamers for gamers" stuff, why dont you mail j.e sawyer and demand to be put onto the development/research team or at least for them to get off there asses and get somebody in there who knows his/her shit?

if it is "by gamers" and "for gamers" they should be doing something like this anyway, .... that is IF this is FO3 they are actually making

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Sun May 18, 2003 9:47 pm

That logo went out a LONG time ago.

Carib · Post by **Carib** » Sun May 18, 2003 9:47 pm

Poor us fans. We get the shitty end of the stick while we wait.

Raymondo · Post by **Raymondo** » Sun May 18, 2003 11:03 pm

WOW Look at this

http://spike.nci.nih.gov/fallout/html/d ... d6ser.html

It has the words Fallout and Van Buren both in.

Which means Van Buren is related with Fallout, so Van Buren could = Fallout 3.

avenger69ie · Post by **avenger69ie** » Sun May 18, 2003 11:28 pm

Rosh wrote:That logo went out a LONG time ago.

That figures, it may also be the reason they've gone downhill faster than eddie the eagle on acid wearing lead ski's

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Mon May 19, 2003 1:20 am

Fallout Junkie wrote:WOW Look at this

http://spike.nci.nih.gov/fallout/html/d ... d6ser.html

It has the words Fallout and Van Buren both in.

Which means Van Buren is related with Fallout, so Van Buren could = Fallout 3.

I had no idea milk was so... evil. Lousy milk-bashers.

Sammael · Post by **Sammael** » Mon May 19, 2003 8:29 am

I'm sure this will make a news item by itself...

Chris Avellone wrote:I would prefer TB combat. And no multiplayer.

I think New Reno in light of the genre was wrong, but I will defend the quests, the choices, and the number of things to do in New Reno until my dying day. I believe it was a fun location to play, and I am still proud for having designed it, despite the genre problems.

80s Sci-Fi is bad. The point of Fallout is that the world functions much the way people of the 50s believed a sci-fi/post-holocaust world would be. And it obeys the same physics, to boot.

Weapons and automobiles (if any) should be rare. I do not think there should be real-world weapons.

For continuity purposes, I would prefer that all Fallout PC RPG titles have their own continuity outside of other platforms and game genres (FOT), and that other platforms and game genres be regarded as "What if" universes, not canon. I do not know if that is my decision, however.

I recognize that PS:T and Fallout are different games. I would also ask if you consider PS:T (done after Fallout) to have been a gross violation of the Planescape genre and whether you thought it had too many easter eggs in it.

I think there are many things that make Fallout what it is:

The SPECIAL system.
The choices in solving quests.
The non-linearity.
The ambiance.
Hard moral choices.
Role-playing, including stupid dialogue and Karma-based responses.
A world where locations have rational explanations and reasons for being, as well as economic reasons for how they have survived.

...among others. There are some things I think were done poorly in FO2, and they are:

Easter eggs.
Too many jokes, which only undermines the plot.
Lack of a satisfying finale.
Lack of choice in finale.
Not enough choice in some areas.
Real-world weapons.
Super Technology.
Too much sex. I don't think you need an excess of prostitutes to make a game serious and gritty.
The presence of aliens and the supernatural. While I can support the presence of aliens in a Fallout 50's ambiance, I think they distract from the human-centric themes in the game.

There are some things I would want to bring from Planescape, however:

- A strong central theme or multiple ones, preferably sparked by your character.
- Deep NPC relationships that are not about romance.
- Richer NPCs whose lives you can affect dramatically.
- Get XP rewards for exploration, learning things, teaching things, and not just killing.
- Even more importance and focus on the central character; rather than seeking a water chip or a GECK, I'd rather the player tell me what he's looking for as a character, then have the game react accordingly.

I would prefer a Fallout that takes a step back from the world in FO2, in a frontier-like area, more in keeping with FO1. I would also like to see certain civilizations' advancement reversed dramatically and violently, as well as perhaps do some general clean-up on the world.

EDIT: and this:

Chris Avellone wrote:If Black Isle did a Fallout 3, we'd definitely stick with a 50s music feel. No modern day bands.

And we'd need to find Mark Morgan because I love that guy.

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Mon May 19, 2003 8:55 am

He does have some points in hand, yet the part of New Reno, he's still way off. Sure, some of the quests could be transplanted, but a number of them are either generic or are of the mafia/easter egg variety in themselves. I think Prov's blown enough holes in that one to prove the design document for that area could better be used as a sieve.

To his dying day? Doesn't seem like a good thing, I think.

Another thing to watch for:

For continuity purposes, I would prefer that all Fallout PC RPG titles have their own continuity outside of other platforms and game genres (FOT), and that other platforms and game genres be regarded as "What if" universes, not canon. I do not know if that is my decision, however.

Mr Carrot · Post by **Mr Carrot** » Mon May 19, 2003 10:59 am

Well rip him to pieces all you want i think the guys come a long way and at least hes a game dev that thinks somewhere along our lines.

Stevie D · Post by **Stevie D** » Mon May 19, 2003 2:07 pm

Mr Carrot wrote:Well rip him to pieces all you want i think the guys come a long way and at least hes a game dev that thinks somewhere along our lines.

Yeah, give him a chance, that's what I reckon. If he sticks to what he's written in Sammael's compilation, it should be a pretty fine game.

What puzzles me is that no-one's concerned about the editing tools Vin Diesel or whatever it's called will ship with. After all, even if the story ties in spot on with the two CRPGs (esp. the first one) we're going to get bored of it sooner or later and want to start making our own.

FO2's editor is painful as fuck.

Fingers crossed they make the file system more modular and include an editor along the lines of Tactics', which was one of that game's fortes. (can't be assed to find the accent on 'for-tay')

Zbyram · Post by **Zbyram** » Mon May 19, 2003 5:29 pm

Stevie D wrote:Yeah, give him a chance, that's what I reckon. If he sticks to what he's written in Sammael's compilation, it should be a pretty fine game.

That's what I think and I've been bashed for that already.

Stevie D · Post by **Stevie D** » Mon May 19, 2003 5:37 pm

Zbyram wrote:That's what I think and I've been bashed for that already.

It's all in the delivery.

Haha! No flies on me mate!

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Mon May 19, 2003 6:19 pm

Zbyram wrote: That's what I think and I've been bashed for that already.

Oooh! Interplay forums buzz-word..."bashed"!

No, you just suck at debate and you also suck at communication. When presented with points, you'll just go off into a childish tantrum of hyperbole without discussing said points at all. For that point of unethical debate, I decided that I would do some of my own.

It is a bit funny that you happened to mention New Reno in one of your posts, but then MCA also was a bit ambiguous in his wording of how he would defend it's design except for genre.

The point still stands that what he's said isn't wholly indicative of knowing the Fallout universe, especially the setting. Hopefully Josh can keep him in line enough so that won't be a problem, but again, the problem with having a lead designer that has needed some serious coaching and has just until recently *somewhat* gotten "what Fallout is", but still appears to be missing it, that is a problem.

People are jumping on "hey, that's great!" to him because so far it looks like he's giving one of the best options, especially compared to the poor ability of Cuervos to do some research. Then take into account how Interplay has been in a rush "get rich quick" mood lately, the project would need to take at least 2 years if it's on it's own engine, but Interplay will try to cut corners or put time pressure on it.

Back to the original point, notice how he's pretty much alluding to the time of Googie style? Fallout was 50's sci-fi style and ambiance, not "50's ambiance".

There's a HUGE difference. Yes, that is a link. Click it.

Zbyram · Post by **Zbyram** » Mon May 19, 2003 6:34 pm

Rosh wrote:Oooh! Interplay forums buzz-word..."bashed"!

And how would you know that? You're laughable, now the words I use are bad.

Rosh wrote:For that point of unethical debate, I decided that I would do some of my own.

No, you started it. Just because I said exactly the same thing as Stevie D now. I wanted to end the matter but you just need to keep on posting about how great you are. Let's stop it, okey? I guess it's not funny for anyone else, and try to respect my opinion, as hard as it may be for you.

I think we should start bitching about MCA when we see some of his new work. As for know, give the man a chance.

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Mon May 19, 2003 6:41 pm

Zbyram wrote:
Rosh wrote:For that point of unethical debate, I decided that I would do some of my own.
No, you started it. Just because I said exactly the same thing as Stevie D now.

You might want to go back and look at that again.

I wanted to end the matter but you just need to keep on posting about how great you are. Let's stop it, okey?

How about you READ, dipshit? I didn't post anything about what you claim, I posted about the subject. Stop your sniveling bullshit and get back to the fucking topic before I really tear into your worthless ass with a cluex4, understand?

I guess it's not funny for anyone else, and try to respect my opinion, as hard as it may be for you.

Yes, you have your opinion. I posted mine.

You haven't come up with a counter-point to those I've pointed out, you've just whined and used shithead hyperbole.

I think we should start bitching about MCA when we see some of his new work. As for know, give the man a chance.

I alreaduy pointed out why I now have renewed doubts, and you can't even reply to that, but instead start your usual method of "not replying" again.

Mad Max RW · Post by **Mad Max RW** » Mon May 19, 2003 6:56 pm

Knock off the bullshit, kids

And Rosh, I don't know why you aren't in game design or at least write scifi. You like to take something and nitpick the hell out of it. Or maybe you are into those things.

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Mon May 19, 2003 6:58 pm

Mad Max RW wrote:And Rosh, I don't know why you aren't in game design or at least write scifi. You like to take something and nitpick the hell out of it. Or maybe you are into those things.

You think? ;D

Zbyram · Post by **Zbyram** » Mon May 19, 2003 7:02 pm

My point is simple. While your doubts are ok you have no means to change anything. Your opinion won't change shit. FOBOS was utterly criticised from the very beginning and what did that gain? They changed the logo? The best thing we can do is play with MCA like you stated, making sure he does everything like he should. There are no chances he'll give up being the lead developer, no matter what you do. Yeah, I can agree that there are better people to do this, unfortunately it doesn't matter.

Rosh · Post by **Rosh** » Mon May 19, 2003 8:37 pm

Oh, FINALLY you get back to the discussion. That didn't take long, did it?

Zbyram wrote:My point is simple. While your doubts are ok you have no means to change anything.

That's funny.

Your opinion won't change shit. FOBOS was utterly criticised from the very beginning and what did that gain? They changed the logo?

Congratulations again to Captain Clueless of the S.S. Moronic.

I guess you forgot about what FOT was going to be released as initially and what it turned out to be. Chuck also happens to be one of the worst developers I've seen, as he's off in his skewed little world. Not all developers are as terminally clueless as he.

The best thing we can do is play with MCA like you stated, making sure he does everything like he should.

Wait, I thought we weren't supposed to have any influence, as you earlier said.

Ah, here we go back again to your fortÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â©, blind supposition.

There are no chances he'll give up being the lead developer, no matter what you do. Yeah, I can agree that there are better people to do this, unfortunately it doesn't matter.

Now here's where you're obviously failing to notice things. I suggest you might want to get out a little more if you don't know that much about human nature. I'll give you one reply to use your head before I put it plainly for you. Think about it, think hard.

Briosafreak · Post by **Briosafreak** » Mon May 19, 2003 11:52 pm

MCA wrote:

I think too many jokes ruined FO2, no question. I'm not arguing against an element of campiness in keeping with the pulp era, but I'd rather stick to the side of a serious plot because the dramatic trade-off is far more worthwhile in the end.

I don't think there should be modern-day versions of weapons, since Fallout is an alternate universe. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be weapons with potentially equivalent firepower (as well as a few laser and high-tech weapons, but these should be rare, much rarer than they were in Fallout 2).

I agree with you in that I don't think there should be an escalating level of super technology in every Fallout game. You are just setting yourself up for trouble. Besides, there's so many elements of Fallout technology you can play around with it that don't involve having the Vindicator Mark 2 and the Super Super Supreme Power Armor.

The supernatural has no place in Fallout, in my opinion. I don't want ghosts, goblins, or any elements common to fantasy games anywhere near the setting.

I think aliens can work with the setting, but my argument is as soon as they are introduced, suddenly everything occuring on the planet doesn't seem very important in the shadow of extraterrestrial empires. I'd rather not dispense with the politics of the wasteland and human nature just yet. If we do a sequel, it may not be your kind of game.

Besides, I think a lot of the charm of Fallout 1 and 2 was dealing with people and the resulting situations, not how many floaters, centaurs, and aliens you could interact with. They have their place, but I think they should be used conservatively, if at all.

I now officially like the man, and you can quote me on that