World Map in Fallout 3...(your opinions)

Neon Dingo · Post by **Neon Dingo** » Tue May 20, 2003 5:39 am

I was thinking about the world map in Fallout 1 and 2. I have no real problems with it. I'm not an idiot and hate it because it's not graphically spectacular. It's actually very basic and easy to use and that's why I love it so much.

I was just wondering what you all would like to see changed with the world map (if it even needs to be changed). Maybe a tiny little icon of a man or car or something. I don't really know. I don't really feel the need for a change in the world map unless the graphic style is changed, but I was wondering if any of you had any better ideas.

I think for Fallout 3 to be a true sequel it needs to change some gameplay mechanics, otherwise it will just be like Fallout 2 and Fallout Tactics where it's basically the same game but with a different story slapped on it.

Yeah, I know I'm saying the obvious.

If they did change the map and the game was 2D I think it'd be really weird and it wouldn't fit. Hopefully they won't do anything too drastic. I kinda liked the fact that it's similar to Wasteland.

If the game turns out to be 3D (which is a huge possibility and more than likely to happen due to 2D being systematically phased-out due to profit-type stuff) I always thought that wandering the desert would be great because it'd really be able to give you a good impact of the extreme isolation and barren post-apocalyptic atmosphere. It'd be cool to see a bunch of tiny flickering lights in the distance which might represent a town or a campsite, maybe to see the sillohuette of something far out (is it a mutant, a brahmin, a deathclaw?) and you really don't know what it is until you're close enough for you to see it and it to see you. It'd kind of build up the suspense, I guess because you don't really know if it's a good idea to approach or avoid this object in the distance. Maybe binoculars would be a good item in the game for scouting the area, and binoculars aren't really all that unfeasable to exist in the Fallout universe.

Hopefully they're not going to rape the concept of vehicles in the 3rd one. I hated the idea of having a car in Fallout 2 because it kind of threw the post-apocalyptic stuff out the window with random futuristic fuel cell technology that still seems to work just fine several years later.

You know, I think it'd be awesome to see a bunch of merchants with brahmin-drawn wagons full of goods. I don't want to see a bunch of blimps, humvees, or any of that shit they tried to shove down our throats in Tactics.

I dunno, the world map is a pretty big part in the Fallout games.

I'm more than sure BoS won't have anything remotely world map. Maybe they'll just scrap the map idea altogether and replace it with a sex scene. I mean they've done enough random crap to the game already, so it sounds about right.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Tue May 20, 2003 9:13 am

I'd still like the 2d world map

If you had to travel the desert, wouldn't the journeys be a bit long? Walking from one town to another in morrowind was a long journey and those were fairly close together.

Plus you'd have to make it intresting and add land-marks and stuff to do. I'm not just walking around a rocky desert for a few hours looking for a town I can't see or avoiding monsters easily and getting rid of outdoorsman lewl

Neon Dingo · Post by **Neon Dingo** » Tue May 20, 2003 9:54 am

Well I suppose you could speed it up or something. I'm sure it'd be a big hassle to figure out how to do that without making it too boring or too easy. But it could be done. It'd take a lot of planning. You'd have to have a lot or RAM, I'd imagine, to render all the hills and crap if it just went on forever. But I still think it'd be kind of cool to sit in the dry grass on top of a cliff waiting for a convoy of Raiders to go through a canyon and snipe them one by one through a scope. Just think of the possibilities. No, I'm not suggesting Fallout 3 should be an FPS. I'm just throwing ideas around.

But yeah, 2D works for me. I was thinking they could add the descriptive text in a the little box like when you walk around places and maybe it will reveal tidbits of information along the way so you don't have to stop moving to know that you're having a massive headache from radiation poisoning.

I don't really see a huge reason to change it unless they completely change the graphics like I said. I think it'd be kind of weird to go from fully rotational 3D graphics to a flat 2D map, but that's just me. Kinda like in Final Fantasy X where they had that stupid ass point A to point B map style that you couldn't control and you really had no sense of travel in that game. I hated that damn game.

I didn't like the map for Fallout at first but it definitely grew on me.

I can't really see much of a reason to change it but I'd expect them to either add on some gameplay features to the map or change up the graphics a bit.

I really really hope that if it does turn 3D it remains turn-based (or at least has the option) and has preset camera angles (especially the isometric view) and it looks just as detailed as its predecessors. I can't tell you how crappy BoS looks because of the low-res textures and the shotty 3D models.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Tue May 20, 2003 9:59 am

I like your idea, but can't this just be solved with better random encounter maps? I'd prefer ambushing caravans and setting up attacks to being surrounded by a circle of raiders.

Neon Dingo · Post by **Neon Dingo** » Tue May 20, 2003 10:10 am

Hmmm, yeah, you're right. Fallout really just needs to either have a super detailed variety of terrain blocks or some sort of random terrain generator so it's not that same old cave in the upper lefthand corner stuff.

Hypothetical situation: Maybe make it where you can see a canyon or something on the map and in text it reveals to you "You see a small caravan of Raiders" and it gives you options of either talking to them (which would probably be suicide) or ambushing them from the top of the mountain. Maybe it gives you the advantage of choosing the exact spot to wait for them from, gives you time to setup your area and get settled before they come near.

I'd imagine a very high outdoorsman skill would mean you could ambush people a lot easier. Maybe a 200% skill means you can ambush practically anything as long as the terrain provides.

Neon Dingo · Post by **Neon Dingo** » Tue May 20, 2003 10:36 am

I had another idea. Maybe you could set up a trap or some sort. Maybe rig some dynamite on top of a grouping of boulders over a cliff and then blow the boulders off of a mountain to prevent the passage of say...a squad mutants from getting to a town or something. You should be able to set up the exact positions of yourself and your NPCs, too. Then you can hold an orchestrated attack that depends on the support of other people at strategic positions.

I was also thinking it would be pretty cool if you could carry around a tent made of something like brahmin hides (it's basically just a leather tarp with a few sticks rolled into a bundle) and you can stop and rest anywhere you'd like on the map to regenerate health or any other problems faster than it would if you walked.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Tue May 20, 2003 11:29 am

I like the trap idea, as it would put better use of the trap skill. Also if you're walking around the map you could get ambushed.

If FO3 has the feature of shouting orders this would be good, that way you could have even better ambushes. Mabye even set up some bait, like money.

I think it would be good if the wasteland was a bit more consistant. Like if you see a group of raiders, a green dot shows up on your world map and you can follow them. Mabye you could find an armoury, make a note of it and come back to it when you have more inventory space. Mabye even have it so that towns get attacked, or a group of raiders have took it over (like the magnificent seven lewl). I'd like the wasteland to be a bit more intresting than circles of monsters that always pop-up outside a cave. One thing that I thought FO:T did well was that in some encounters you saw the group travel through the map. It was usually to quick to set up an ambush or traps, but made more sense than running into a circle of 8ft mutants and suddenly see them.

I think that what you suggested could be possible (world map you travel across in isometric 3rd person) it'd just have to be on a smaller world-map and more detailed. I also think this would be better suited to a first-person game but who knows eh, who knows.

swordinstone · Post by **swordinstone** » Tue May 20, 2003 2:33 pm

Neon Dingo wrote:Hmmm, yeah, you're right. Fallout really just needs to either have a super detailed variety of terrain blocks or some sort of random terrain generator so it's not that same old cave in the upper lefthand corner stuff.

Doing that in 3D is pretty tough... you have to build things as "moduals" and then be able to place those like puzzle pieces so to speak, so there will be some repetion.

Half Life 2 is going to have terrain that can be altered with displacement maps... perhaps this system could be used to randomize the terrain in Fallout 3... they could make a couple different ground textures (really big areas) and "randomize" them by applying different displacement maps... you'll be seeing the same sand/rocks over and over, but it will look different each time since the displacement map will alter terrain height and what not. You could easily double your diplacement maps by simply inverting them also.

weetchex · Post by **weetchex** » Tue May 20, 2003 5:13 pm

I do like the idea of being able to set up your party's location prior to random and special encounters. I always hated being randomly surrounded by enemies. I think the cautious nature perk was supposed to avoid this, but I never noticed any difference.
With the pre-fight setup, I could set up those indiscriminate bullet sprayers like marcus and Sulik closer to the fray while keeping any sniper-types from getting shot in the back.
Perhaps the ability to do this could be tied to outdoorsman or perception as opposed to traps.

Radoteur · Post by **Radoteur** » Tue May 20, 2003 6:11 pm

It would be cool if I could use my outdoorsman skill to track someone through the wilderness. Like a group of raiders kills someone I hold dear, and I've got to hunt them down like dogs. Maybe I'd come in in the dead of night, (using sneak skill) slit all the throats of the grunts, and sedate the leader, using some herbal medicines I've found out in the wilderness (yea, it sounds a little tribal, but people in the wasteland would need to learn what mutated plant do, right?). When the leader wakes up I'd kill him somehow. Something creative.

swordinstone · Post by **swordinstone** » Tue May 20, 2003 8:08 pm

weetchex wrote:I do like the idea of being able to set up your party's location prior to random and special encounters. I always hated being randomly surrounded by enemies. I think the cautious nature perk was supposed to avoid this, but I never noticed any difference.
With the pre-fight setup, I could set up those indiscriminate bullet sprayers like marcus and Sulik closer to the fray while keeping any sniper-types from getting shot in the back.
Perhaps the ability to do this could be tied to outdoorsman or perception as opposed to traps.

Ever play Heroes of Might and Magic? I think it was HoMM2 that offered a skill (perk) your character could take called "Tactics"... it would allow you to place you troops on the battle field before combat began... the better the skill the larger the area was in which you could place your troops. I dont see why that wouldnt work in Fallout.. sounds like its going to be turn based or fast-turn based.

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Wed May 21, 2003 6:50 pm

I like the traditional RPG-map movement best. Morrowind-style gets *ANNOYING* when you have to take zillion items to zillion places. It takes hours in real time just to complete some simple fedex quests. Not that it doesn't sometimes get boring in the traditional map-movement as well...

Strap · Post by **Strap** » Wed May 21, 2003 7:07 pm

swordinstone wrote:Ever play Heroes of Might and Magic? I think it was HoMM2 that offered a skill (perk) your character could take called "Tactics"... it would allow you to place you troops on the battle field before combat began... the better the skill the larger the area was in which you could place your troops. I dont see why that wouldnt work in Fallout.. sounds like its going to be turn based or fast-turn based.

i like that idea... exept for the "placing" your charactors part, it should be more like...
if you have a higher outdoorsmen/PE (like in fo1/2) when a random encounter occurs, you will be placed farther away.
but in fo3, the engine or whatnot would probubly allow for you to be placed randomly in a strategic location(s) for that specific random encounter map.
so basicly, if you encounter some raiders and you have a high outdoorsmen skill and maybe good PE you/your NPCs would be placed like... behind trees or hiding behind cover or something, especially if the encounter was hostile (you would be able to tell from afar with higher PE)

but as far as actually placing your guys (taking this literally) i dont like it, you cant just plop people down where you want them. doesnt seem real.

swordinstone · Post by **swordinstone** » Wed May 21, 2003 7:32 pm

your going to place them how you want during comabt anyways, this skill would allow you to have that taken care of before combat rounds begin. Its not that big of an advantage, since you cant just place your troops behind theirs... its still limited to a specific area on the field.

Carib · Post by **Carib** » Thu May 22, 2003 6:47 pm

More cities and all according to historical locations within the Fallout Universe. Even some locales in wastelands could be changed.

Some lands would differ in random encounters... The Wastelands is a big place. I wanna see Junk Town...

swordinstone · Post by **swordinstone** » Thu May 22, 2003 7:39 pm

I say do a good chunk of the west, like to texas maybe, it doesnt have to be perfect, but put in all the major cities, and have ghost towns peppering the wasteland... let them be randomly generated or something. I wouldnt mind seing resources and crafting either... theres a lot you could do with that, and it would add to the atmosphere of the game IMO.

Calal · Post by **Calal** » Mon May 26, 2003 11:25 pm

Maybe you guys didn' t notice this, but this is more and more sounding like Tactics! The ambushing that is. Ok it would be cool, but I think you' re overdoing it this way.

Meanwhile the Tactics skill from HoMM2 sounds great, if you adapt it in a right way to the Fallout game.

Silver · Post by **Silver** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 11:15 am

I would like to see some areas with some restored plant life. I bet it wouldnt be impossible to have some forrests in the less important areas where nukes didn't hit the ground directly.

VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:27 pm

Silver wrote:I would like to see some areas with some restored plant life. I bet it wouldnt be impossible to have some forrests in the less important areas where nukes didn't hit the ground directly.

Agreed, it'd be interesting to travel through mutated forests. I'm not talking about a jungle here, but something that suits both the climate and the setting. I don't see why any vegetation wouldn't be possible at some locations, NCR and Vault city had some trees and grass and stuff. Mutated forests would be a nice alternative to the standard dusty landscape, although very rare. But beware the spore plants.

Neon Dingo · Post by **Neon Dingo** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 8:03 pm

Hey, that's a really great idea. Think of like a city like Necropolis completely covered with vegetation. Vines and trees all over the place. A bunch of birds flying around in the canopy. Maybe they could make some crazy mutated venus flytraps (Bigger than those in FO2). You know, if BIS wants to throw in some Ewoks or something, more power to them. I just want FO3, damn it.

Of course this would have to be in an area with a lot of rainfall so it makes some sort of rainforest. But think of how neat that would be.

Rainforest idea is really good but hard to implement without destroying the isolated and dry desert atmosphere.