JE Sawyer's ideas on Fallout 3 skillz

requiem_for_a_starfury · Sat May 31, 2003 8:34 pm

Seems daft spliting the repair skills, but like the idea of streamlining the combat skills. Would like to see outdoorsman have more uses though, especially in the game rather than just in the world map. Leadership sounds like someone's been playing too much of JA2 what's next training up your NPCs?

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Sat May 31, 2003 8:36 pm

Pilot is a lame FOT skill and should be erased from all thought.

Gambling on the other hand.. SHOW ME THE MONEY, JE!

Red · Post by **Red** » Sat May 31, 2003 8:37 pm

Gambling hsould be properly implimented though, unlike FO2...

Smiley · Post by **Smiley** » Sat May 31, 2003 8:42 pm

Red wrote:Gambling hsould be properly implimented though, unlike FO2...

Hmmm.. What exactly was wrong with it?

Well, except for the fact, if you boosted gamble a lot, you could get unlimited money...

Strap · Post by **Strap** » Sat May 31, 2003 10:51 pm

i think throwing should be combined with melee, because after all, most melee weapons require strength and dexterity to use, and so do throwing things. so why not make them as one?
i mean, who really invests points into throwing just so they can chuck that 1 plasma grenade and hope to hurt someone?

Thoral · Post by **Thoral** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 2:02 am

Hm... i'd be kind of interesting to find out what kind of "idea" this list by JE-Sawyer exactly is. A Mirroring of the current indaworks at iply as their internal brainstorming concluded it or just a "point of view" JE verbalized on his own. It looks kinda basic to me, as if nobody talked to a gameplay/location/quest-designer (before publicizing it) about if this system would be usefull in game like fallout. I mean, what kind of (post apocalyptic !!!) rpg could that be where you have a crapload of different Computer types (running on several different os's and each one using different programming languages; thats the only way to explain the need of computer ops cause if there wouldnt be so much variety, it would be like "knowing one knowing all of them") to sensefully interact with ? (sorry for that kind of monster-sentence)
As there is a seperated electronics skill, computer ops must be all about software only.
Show me really good hacker who has no idea about how a cpu exchanges stacks of data with the system-ram...

To put it in simple words, the system JE Sawyer introduced would fit well to a CYBERPUNK or Futuristic-Sci-Fi kind of RPG (well you'd have other names of course like "cybernetics" or "nanoprogramming" but its all the same slice of bread viewed upon from different angles), but it rather lacks a usability in a 50's-sci-fi postapocrpg like Fallout. In the 50's, nobody thought about something like "HACKING" or just "using" a computer as all of these machines where 2 storys high and still build of gastubes(well, the biggest part of them, as transistor were introduced in 1959). They didn't even had a console access, they were hand-operated and programmed through a couple of switches. Computers weren't playing a big role in 50's scifi (atleast in the kinds of scifi where mr. handy and the likes are coming from), so they shouldn't play such a huge role (as indicated by this skill) in the third incarnation of fallout as well. Just my oppinion, though.

Forty-six & Two · Post by **Forty-six & Two** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 11:06 am

Saying that no vehicles at all are in working condition and that none of them has any chance of being repaired is just crazy. Every square inch of the U.S wasnt nuked, and im pretty sure the level of tech a normal car had reached around the great war was high enough for it to survive a few hundred years, if not highly exposed. Im not saying it would be in perfect working order, but as mentioned 10 damaged cars could make one working car if a mechanic was around. And saying that something as basic as cars would be lost lore is going over the top. About rust, maybe a chassis of a car would be rusted away, but a well built engine wont rust that easily you know. I do agree that tanks, APCs and all that are very unfallouty, and I didnt much like the vertibirds either.. but purely fallout setting ficton here, not talking strict Fallout game "dress code". Cars and trucks etc. wouldnt be lost to the dark ages. Im sure alot of military stock vehicles would be resistent enough to survive most things, if not the civi vehicles.

Mad Max RW · Post by **Mad Max RW** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:09 pm

Oh yeah, in case you guys haven't noticed the vehicle discussion was sent over here. http://www.duckandcover.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5396

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 11:43 pm

Gambling should work like in real life - only with a truly high skill you can make profitable results. Less than 150% would end up either with a failure or a small amount of winning money. When going above 200% bigger money should come in the picture. I'm talking about thousands of bottlecaps.

I agree, gambling in FO2 was fucked up. And there was no use of it in FO1.

VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 9:55 am

I'd like to have a gambling interface, just like for barter and speech. It'd be much more interesting to be able to play poker or spin a roulette disk rather than gamble through dialogue. Your own choices, the gambling skill and Luck would all determine the outcome. Of course, winning is easier with a higher gambling skill, but also a much slower process than in Fallout 2. Maybe you'd have a limited number of games per day, so that you can't win a fortune in one day. I'm sure the ones of you who've played Leisure suit Larry wont laugh at my idea.

SuperH · Post by **SuperH** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 11:43 am

Why shouldn't you be able to win a fortune in a day? If your luck and gambling skill are high enough, I think you should definately be able to win whatever you want in a game. What other purpose would you have to put any skill points into gambling whatsoever? If you don't make the payoffs big, then it would be a totally weak and wasted skill.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 12:08 pm

Smiley wrote:
Red wrote:Gambling hsould be properly implimented though, unlike FO2...
Hmmm.. What exactly was wrong with it?

Go to a casino, put a weight on your keyboard, go eat, come back and you're RICH!!! or something

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 12:36 pm

Well, Gambling is the free money skill. Sure, you can put the weight on the keyboard and macro it to ph4t l3wt, but you're still burning a bunch of skill points to do that.

Having a gambling skill of 150% required to actually win the majority of times is an incredibly stupid suggestion, since that would basically make the skill utterly useless. It's also mean that anyone who didn't put any points in to it would most likely lose every time, since their skill would be 10%-20%, which would mean gambling in the game would also be pointless.

axelgreese · Post by **axelgreese** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 5:39 pm

Saint_Proverbius wrote:Well, Gambling is the free money skill. Sure, you can put the weight on the keyboard and macro it to ph4t l3wt, but you're still burning a bunch of skill points to do that.

In Fallout 1, if you had a gambling skill of, I think it was, 33 or thereabouts, you could go to the slot machines in Gizmo's bar and hold down keys 1 and 4 and you'd be rich in a short time. iirc.

VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 6:47 pm

SuperH wrote:Why shouldn't you be able to win a fortune in a day? If your luck and gambling skill are high enough, I think you should definately be able to win whatever you want in a game. What other purpose would you have to put any skill points into gambling whatsoever? If you don't make the payoffs big, then it would be a totally weak and wasted skill.

For game balancing reasons. Earning money through quests/killing foes would become useless if you can earn the same amount plus more in one day. Bartering would also become useless if you have a fortune in your pocket. Gambling should be a fun way to earn cash/waste money. Remember that the Wastelands isn't exactly Las Vegas, and the sums you can win aren't that big.

SuperH · Post by **SuperH** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 8:17 pm

For game balancing reasons the payoffs would have to be big - someone who dumped all their skill points into their gambling skill would be severely handicapped when it came to questing for money. You have to make the payoff equal for a character who gets money through gambling to someone who goes out and finds it.

If it's just to be a fun little time waster, it should not have it's own skill. Having a skill means it should have a significant impact on the game, nobody's going to spend any skill points on something that's just a time waster when there's 1) Better things to spend your money on and 2) Better things to spend the skill points on.

Walks with the Snails · Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:02 am

It might be fun if everyone gambled over small stuff (just read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress). There should be practical limits, though. If you consistently keep beating a merchant at cards, chances are he's not going to gamble with you anymore. In the same way, a casino should declare you persona non grata past a certain point, just like in real life.

I'd be fine if they scaled gambling back and just rolled it in with barter. It's kind of a dumb skill as it is, either too powerful or too weak, and an easy way to bust the game if it's not handled right. I'd say boosting one skill for infinite riches really isn't making the supreme sacrifice, either, barter isn't nearly that good but I'd say it's fairly balanced (except where you can swindle someone out of everything they own by bartering back and forth until they're down to a cap or two).

BlackDog · Post by **BlackDog** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:30 am

they should put gambling together with stealing as well as stealth for some sorta super Thief thingy...

Red · Post by **Red** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:41 am

Well, that's why he didn't bother with it. It's moronic.

On one part you can make an infinite amount of money while wasting skill points, on the other it'd be utterly useless to invest points if you can't win ph4t l3w7.

Get rid of it, it's useles.. I think JE got it right. Leave the Luck skill to increase your chances instead - and perhaps alsop perception and agility...

Post by **DarkUnderlord** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 4:50 am

Agility? What, tossing the dice became an olmypic skill now?

I think Luck and Perception sound good. The Gambling skill was, to me, one of those fundamentally useless skills. Even a game where you actually bother getting it, it's sole purpose is to get you free stuff.

You can't use the skill to learn anything like science, or to repair a generaotor or to fix your broken leg, it's whole aim is to get basically you free stuff. Free stuff is also completely useless in Fallout. How many times did you REALLY need that extra couple of thousand bottlecaps?

By the time you can kill raiders in random encounters, you're home free. You end up with shitloads of metal armour, guns and anything else which you can sell quite easily.