J.E. Sawyer On Fallout Firearms

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Post by Smiley »

Smiley wrote:I have, imo, a better suggestion. I think it should be possible to put, say, a pistol in the second slot, but it should cost, one or two ap's to shift over, since the gun is in your belt or somewhere else.
Viktor wrote:That might well be a good compromise between the AP costs of changing to an equipped weapon or to a stored (slung or in back pack) one. Perhaps a holstered pistol or shotgun in a back holster (like Cpl. Hicks Ithaca 37 in Aliens) could allow the PC to draw a holstered weapon (pistol, small shotgun or even compact SMG) for 2AP without the Quick Pockets perk?
It seems there's at least one thing we agree on.

So far it seems like it's less about game-balancing than nostalgia for Fallout :roll:
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Post by SuperH »

Rosh wrote:And that was Terminator, not 50's sci-fi pulp. :)
Yeah, well if you want to get picky about what's 50's sci-fi pulp, a single person holding a minigun certainly isn't. And neither is the power armour. If you want armor in 50's sci-fi pulp you get in a tank, that's about it.

Fallout is NOT solely based on 50's sci-fi, it's also about having a character that can kick a ton of ass... otherwise there would never have been characters toting miniguns themselves.

Akimbo guns would definately balance the system, given the system is changed to small and large guns. That being one handed and two handed guns. Just doing that right there balances a lot of the problems inherent in having to switch your gun skill towards the end of the game - that's such a waste of skill points. In fallout 1 and 2, you can't focus on any one type of weapons for the whole game, because you'll either not have any to use or they'll become obsolete by the end of the game. This is a fact, it's not debatable. That's a waste of skill points, focusing them into two categories, each of which can be focused on from the beginning of the game and useable for the entire game, makes a lot of sense. Now, obviously the two handed guns will be inhernetly more powerful, so the question arises, "how to make the one handed guns still useful towards the end of the game?" and there are two obvious answers... either make insanely powerful one handed guns that rival two handed guns in power, or allow the character to wield two of the weaker guns at once. GSM
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Post by Saint_Proverbius »

SuperH wrote:Yeah, well if you want to get picky about what's 50's sci-fi pulp, a single person holding a minigun certainly isn't.
Battery guns, which have been around since the 1700s, have had their place in sci-fi. The fact the minigun is much, much larger than modern sci-fi movies like Predator in the late 1980s, Robocop 2, etc. is one way of showing the 1950s bulk look to such a thing.
And neither is the power armour. If you want armor in 50's sci-fi pulp you get in a tank, that's about it.
It's not? Starship Troopers was published in 1959. It's a book about a bunch of space soldiers fighting large bugs in power armor.
Fallout is NOT solely based on 50's sci-fi, it's also about having a character that can kick a ton of ass...
Which explains why you can beat the game without "kicking any ass" at all?
otherwise there would never have been characters toting miniguns themselves.
otherwise there would never have been a speech skill.
Akimbo guns would definately balance the system, given the system is changed to small and large guns.
Actually, it would totally fuck the balance. I think I showed that in my post where I listed the amount of damage dual gauss pistols would do per shot versus the gauss rifle. Do the math yourself if you don't believe me.
That being one handed and two handed guns. Just doing that right there balances a lot of the problems inherent in having to switch your gun skill towards the end of the game - that's such a waste of skill points.
And it's not a waste to have to spend skill points in both rifles and pistols just to use both an SMG for close range and a hunting rifle?
In fallout 1 and 2, you can't focus on any one type of weapons for the whole game, because you'll either not have any to use or they'll become obsolete by the end of the game.
You most certainly can. I've beaten the game numerous times with a pure melee character and I've beaten the game with a pistoleer at the .223 pistol + One Hander trait. The Super Sledgehammer is one of the best weapons in the game. The .223 pistol and One Hander trait are a damned lethal combo.

Oh yeah, and that's even without the uber-stats of the gauss pistol, and without having to use ACKIMBOW KEWL KOMBATZ0R!
This is a fact, it's not debatable.
It's obviously debatable, since you seem to have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
That's a waste of skill points, focusing them into two categories, each of which can be focused on from the beginning of the game and useable for the entire game, makes a lot of sense.
The irony is that you don't get that this is the best argument against JE Sawyer's idea. Let me repeat it again, you'll have to invest in two skills just to use an SMG for close range and a rifle for long range.
Now, obviously the two handed guns will be inhernetly more powerful, so the question arises, "how to make the one handed guns still useful towards the end of the game?" and there are two obvious answers... either make insanely powerful one handed guns that rival two handed guns in power, or allow the character to wield two of the weaker guns at once. GSM
Or... YOU COULD USE THE ONE HANDER TRAIT THAT ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME.

Even then, if you want to consider Fallout 2's weapons, the gauss pistol is better than the gauss rifle depending on the amount of APs you have - without the One Hander trait. The gauss pistol, with the bonus damage for the ammo, does a max damage of 48 and takes 3AP with Bonus Rate of Fire. With Bonus Rate of Fire, the M72 Gauss Rifle takes 4AP and does 64 points max damage with the ammo bonus.

So, if you have 7AP, which is average, the gauss pistol gives you 48DAMAGE * 2 and the Gauss Rifle only gives you 64DAMAGE * 1. Therefore, with the pistol, you get 96 max damage, instead of 64 max damage with the rifle.

If you have 9AP, which is a high AG character, we're talking 48DAMAGE * 3 versus 64DAMAGE * 2. The gauss pistol still wins.
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Post by Doyle »

Of course, even if you had only 8 ap, you could still make two targetted shots with the Gauss pistol while the rifle could make only one targetted or two untargetted.
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Post by Saint_Proverbius »

Doyle wrote:Of course, even if you had only 8 ap, you could still make two targetted shots with the Gauss pistol while the rifle could make only one targetted or two untargetted.
And with One Hander, you'd probably hit both those aimed shots as well. That's why One Hander kicks so much ass.

Anyone noticed the irony in JE Sawyer's two statements which set up the basis for his streamlining of the skills for guns as well as his reasoning for wanting the KEWL DAUL PISSTALZ ACKIMBO? Basically we have:
  • Small Arms sucks in Fallout
  • Pistols are too weak
Yet.. The easiest Small Arms weapon to beat the game with is a pistol.
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Post by Virus »

It seems like all anyone is capable of doing in this forum anymore is bitch, moan, and try to shoot down anyone elses idea.

Someone presented a very valid concept of having a back slot, and yet noone talks about it. They just bitch and bitch and bitch about Akimbo weapons. Hey, I have an idea... if you think it's stupid, unrealisitc, or too powerful DON'T USE THEM WHEN YOU PLAY FO3! Everyone who wants to has the freedom to. Isn't that what the FO series is all about? Making the character you want and still being able to have fun?

"So, if you have 7AP, which is average, the gauss pistol gives you 48DAMAGE * 2 and the Gauss Rifle only gives you 64DAMAGE * 1. Therefore, with the pistol, you get 96 max damage, instead of 64 max damage with the rifle. " - Saint Proverbius

You seem to forget that if a character was using two pistols, as Sawyer has already stated, they will recieve a LARGE penalty. This could be either decreased chance to hit, increase in AP cost, inability to make targeted shots, etc, etc, etc. So maybe the dual pistol combo is capable of doing more damage... if it's hitting only %75 as often as the rifle you'll see that the damage ends up about the same. Not to mention that it's chewing threw twice the ammo, with much shorter range, and that the player had to get TWO of the pistols rather than just one rifle.

"Let me repeat it again, you'll have to invest in two skills just to use an SMG for close range and a rifle for long range. "
As the system is now... you have to invest in one skill for the first %50 of the game in order to use the weapons you have access to, and another skill the second %50 just to remain competitive.
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Post by atoga »

You people don't really understand this issue at all, do you? Go take a good look at the GURPS firearms rules, they pretty much cover everything Fallout should have. Stop moaning about pointless things. Firearms aren't everything, you know, but they seem to be the only source for heated debate around here.
suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. suddenly somebody will say like 'plate' or 'shrimp' or 'plate of shrimp', out of the blue, no explanation.
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Post by Smiley »

GO IPLY ON YOUR ASS
I'm going to be stuck on that one for a loooong time, ain't I?

Anyway...

I' have to agree on the fact, that if the akimbo style would be implemented, and if it was so powerful as Saint gives us an example of, then it wouldn't fit.

There's a thing we didn't look at though, the fact that we don't even know what kinds of weapons will be in the game!

I, for one, hope to god they toss the gauss-weaponry to hell, not because it's "not fallout", but because they make things way too easy.

How about limiting the akimbo to small arms, and not smg's, or at least not smg's on full auto, or whatever...
Okay, I'll shit on your sandwich.. don't like that? Then just don't eat that part of the sandwich.
In other words, Fo3 would be, in your opinion, utterly tainted and destroyed, if the style was implemented?
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Post by atoga »

Smiley wrote:
axelgreese wrote:Okay, I'll shit on your sandwich.. don't like that? Then just don't eat that part of the sandwich.
In other words, Fo3 would be, in your opinion, utterly tainted and destroyed, if the style was implemented?
Well, the part with shit in it would be utterly tainted and destroyed, would it not? Let's hope that if that shit does land in the sandwich its shit won't spread elsewhere, because then we end up with a sandwich composed entirely of shit.
suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. suddenly somebody will say like 'plate' or 'shrimp' or 'plate of shrimp', out of the blue, no explanation.
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Post by Smiley »

Well, the part with shit in it would be utterly tainted and destroyed, would it not? Let's hope that if that shit does land in the sandwich its shit won't spread elsewhere, because then we end up with a sandwich composed entirely of shit.
...well depends, what did, whoever put the shit on the sandwich, eat, before he actually put the log on the sandwich?...

Seriously though, I wonder if it would make that much of a difference anyway.
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Post by axelgreese »

Smiley wrote:In other words, Fo3 would be, in your opinion, utterly tainted and destroyed, if the style was implemented?
Let me put it this way: I dont' like tomatoes., if I have a sandwich with tomatoes on it, I take the tomatoes off. With a game I wouldn't be able to take the tomatoes off, so I'd just have to eat them, and thus the sandwich would tastse bad.
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Post by atoga »

Smiley wrote:Seriously though, I wonder if it would make that much of a difference anyway.
I agree, but with IPLY one thing leads to another. Dual pistols is one thing; katanas, bullet time, trenchcoats and evil spirits with OMG MIND CONTROL POWERZZ is another.
suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. suddenly somebody will say like 'plate' or 'shrimp' or 'plate of shrimp', out of the blue, no explanation.
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Post by axelgreese »

Smiley wrote:Seriously though, I wonder if it would make that much of a difference anyway.
It would adversely affect the fallout universe. How it's precieved, presented, etc.

Thus will have a bunch of DBZ kids running around saying "I want to weild a katana and a machine pistol liek morpheus in teh matrix! lole:DDDDD" and other assorted garbage.

I believe, that JE wanting to add things like guns akimbo is evidence that he cares more about attracting an audiance than the setting. If that's true then he'd have no qualms against against bastardizing fallout just to attrach some more bling bling.
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Post by Smiley »

Understood. Ah well it's not that important anyway.
Let me put it this way: I dont' like tomatoes., if I have a sandwich with tomatoes on it, I take the tomatoes off. With a game I wouldn't be able to take the tomatoes off, so I'd just have to eat them, and thus the sandwich would tastse bad.
well... actually you could, by not using the option.. wouldn't you agree..?

let's take, say Neverwinter Nights...
You're able to wield two swords at the same time.. in my opinion, unless you're a certain drow from the forgotten realms wielding scimitars, it shouldn't be possible in the game... it's just not d&d, just like akimbo isn't Fallout...

But still, I'm not exactly forced to wield two swords at a time...

I think it's well balanced though, because you do receive one heck of a penalty, and you can use feats to lessen that penalty, so I guess it worked out.

Of course, there isn't a pre-quel(or whatever) for nwn, so it isn't an addition that screws up "our favorite" genre, as the main reason for being against akimbo, has been(If I've understood it correctly)...

what do you think?
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Smiley wrote:well... actually you could, by not using the option.. wouldn't you agree..?
Making such a drastic change to the combat system would affect everything.

It woudl affect the damage done by the weapons. It would affect ammo avaiblity. For example, whiether I used energy weapons or not they were still there and affected the game. Also, what if enemies dual weild? Then the out of sight out of mind princeble doesn't work so well, does it?

Besides, making this change would complacate the combat system, needlessly. Futhermore, I highly doubt BIS can mange to properly balance a simple combat system, much less one where they have (needlessly) overly complacated it.

Also, the game will be 3d and real time (or at least rt and tb) which means the combat system is gonna be a real cluster fuck anyways.

I suppose if they want to make fallout: enforcer but with pause instead of auto aim then more power to them. But I won't buy it.

I'll just wait for project: pheonix instead.
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Post by Smiley »

For example, whiether I used energy weapons or not they were still there and affected the game
Well, there'll always be things that wont be as spiffy as the dev's hoped, and things that seem bogus, so sometimes compromising, and trying to ignore the fact that an enclave soldier just toasted my ass with a yk-pulse-whatever, will just have to make do...
Also, what if enemies dual weild? Then the out of sight out of mind princeble doesn't work so well, does it?
Point.. just thought of that myself as well..
Though, I wouldn't mind if only a very selected few npc's *did* dual-wield, just to give them a more unique(though not exactly the most inventive trait) character.
Besides, making this change would complacate the combat system, needlessly. Futhermore, I highly doubt BIS can mange to properly balance a simple combat system, much less one where they have (needlessly) overly complacated it.

Also, the game will be 3d and real time (or at least rt and tb) which means the combat system is gonna be a real cluster fuck anyways.
hmm... i'm beginning to see fallout 3 as the next neverwinter nights...
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Post by axelgreese »

Smiley wrote:Well, there'll always be things that wont be as spiffy as the dev's hoped, and things that seem bogus, so sometimes compromising, and trying to ignore the fact that an enclave soldier just toasted my ass with a yk-pulse-whatever, will just have to make do...
Yeah, sometimes it really sucks the way they screwed up Fallout 2
Point.. just thought of that myself as well..
Though, I wouldn't mind if only a very selected few npc's *did* dual-wield, just to give them a more unique(though not exactly the most inventive trait) character.
It'd be rather stupid to voilate the setting so you could have a cliche character, dont you think?
hmm... i'm beginning to see fallout 3 as the next neverwinter nights...
Yes, it's rather sad.

*shrug* oh well.
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Post by Smiley »

It'd be rather stupid to voilate the setting so you could have a cliche character, dont you think?
It's a sad overuse... yet, I just can't help but admire the duel-wielding style. Bah...
When was S.T.A.L.K.E.R. comming out again?......
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Post by SuperH »

The thing is, there wouldn't be dual katanas or any other crazy crap like that, Sawyer only wants it for small guns. Also only for two of the exact same small guns at a time, so even if you could dual wield melee weapons, you wouldn't be able to mix them with guns.

I donno, katanas don't fit the setting whatsoever, crazy matrix style fighting doesn't fit the setting whatsoever, but I still see akimbo pistols as being comparable to the whole minigun thing. Both are absurd in reality, and i don't see how either would fit into a 50's sci-fi setting.

Ahh well, the thing is, it's probably going in because Sawyer wants it, whether you like it or not. And, as for the whole 3d and real time thing... that's another debate, but I haven't seen any mention of the real time aspect on iply yet, howcome you know it's gonna be real time? 3d I understand, and don't have a problem with (posted about that somewhere else already, don't remember where though), but real time is definately thumbs down.
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Post by axelgreese »

SuperH wrote:And, as for the whole 3d and real time thing... that's another debate, but I haven't seen any mention of the real time aspect on iply yet, howcome you know it's gonna be real time? 3d I understand, and don't have a problem with (posted about that somewhere else already, don't remember where though), but real time is definately thumbs down.
It doesn't take that much to figure out.
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