The Brotherhood and Non-Humans

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:56 pm

In FOT, the Brotherhood of Steel is depicted as a bunch of racist expansionist bastards. They hate ghouls, they hate super mutants, they hate deathclaws and they hate tribals. But the EVAL ROBOTS force them to recruit anything they can take to fight off the invaders.

But I'm wondering: is there anything in the original Fallout games that says anything about the BoS' attitude towards non-humans? I'm pretty sure they mistrust or outright hate super mutants, which is natural since a war was brewing at the time. But what about ghouls? Did the Brotherhood see them as evil zombies like everyone else or did they know they were simply radiated humans? The only thing we learn about the Brotherhood's attitude towards outsiders at large is that they want to keep the technology out of their hands, but I'm wondering if there's any evidence that they were racists, too.

SeanDMan · Post by **SeanDMan** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:17 pm

From what I got:

The Brotherhood's Isolationism is exclusive to non-mutated humans. This is simply because the non-mutated humans are the one who are born Brotherhood members, and are nurtured into Brotherhood members. I don't think that the Brotherhood recruited AT ALL as was referrenced in FOT's opening movie. Just like everyone in Vault 13 was born in Vault 13, so was everyone in Lost Hills.

I think that tensions arising due to the impending war with the Mutants and the fact that Necropolis was defined as largely a caravans graveyard would likely have led to suspicion and racism in regards to ghouls. However, as we saw with Marcus and Jacob, not everyone in either the Master's Army or the Brotherhood is hell bent on them being the master race and the sole inheritence of the earth,

This, is largely just guesswork on our part using what limited evidence we have. But we know that the scribes in FoT had a respect for the ghouls intelligence and that the Brotherhood was doing experiments with mutant corpses and the FEV virus. This would suggest a curiousity, even if only among a scientific minority in a millitaristic majority. For them to be racist or curious is naturally acceptable, since when you are isolated from a way of life, you either learn to look upon it as a mystery to explore or a abhorrance to ignore. One thing is certain, is that they were not amblivious.

Remember, as well, that the Brotherhood represented in FoT was a more racially tolerant group then the core Brotherhood based in NC. Which makes it funny that they were so racist, as the Brotherhood from the RPGs was not portrayed as such and the subject was generally not discussed. I think the main reason is the Brotherhood's portrayal as good guys: not the saviour of the wastes we see them in BOS, but more of a guardian of a better future. To portray them as racist, however natural or well justified and explained, would taint that image, as racism is largely seen as a bad thing. In a post apocolyptic world, I think even a racism such as Vault City's would be a nesscessary evil, but, you see how everyone of us sees them as assholes. We'd likely look at the Brotherhood even moreso, since they don't have a single black person in their bunker.

Strap · Post by **Strap** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:51 pm

i would immagion that the BOS in fallout1 were not very superstitious. i would think that if you asked any one person in the BOS they would say that they didnt really care for ghouls, and hated supermutants. but if you asked them as a whole, they wouldnt really mind the ghouls (no threat, far away, not like they wanted to conquer necropolis) and would all hate supermutants. well, not really hate at that point in time, but highly dislike. they would start hating them once they started killing bos soldiers. but at that point in the game there was nothing really violent going on and they didnt even have any scouts sent to the military base (thus why you are sent)
i think that all of them would say (if they knew about the master) that hes crazy, and could be a severe problem if not stopped. especially the "rhombus" type. but the elders would have different opinions. not the opposite, but different.

PIPBoy2161 · Post by **PIPBoy2161** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:09 pm

you are all right but i would like to stress more on the tribal thingy, it seems that the BOS stranded in Chicago, in FO:T was more interested in building their ranks instead of being the normal BOS like the intro to FO:T says. But in FO2 your a tribal and you get into the BOS but in FO:T they ask you to kill the raider leader but dont kill any of the tribals because they are recruits...

But like Sean said, not all mutants hated the BOS and not all BOS hated the mutants, I.E. Jacob and Marcus. Marcus tells you a huge story about how he left the master and met up with Jacob and they then built Broken Hills. Or something like that.

Any of this make sense?

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:22 pm

SDM wrote:However, as we saw with Marcus and Jacob, not everyone in either the Master's Army or the Brotherhood is hell bent on them being the master race and the sole inheritence of the earth,

Not quite. Marcus tells you he and Jacob started fighting when they first met--it was only when neither one could gain the upper hand that they decided to travel together.

As for black people in the BOS, I'm certain at least one person was black underneath the armour.

SeanDMan · Post by **SeanDMan** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:43 pm

Yeah, well, how come all of their armor is white? Huh?

And yes, you're right. But he also said they realized "What was the point". Their hate was artifical, and they realized that. If the only reason they stopped fighting was because they couldn't kill the other, I doubt they would have gone on to form a bastion of tolerance in a sea of hatred. They probably would have scratched their ass and went to raid some caravans.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:48 pm

I figure that when they noticed that neither one was winning, they decided that, all things considered, they were equals (score one for game balance). They then applied this lesson to all of mutant- and humankind and founded Broken Hills.

Strap · Post by **Strap** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:59 am

broken hills was such a kickass place, it sucks that it was gone at the end of FO2.

i would immagion that the BOS in 1/2 thought of tribals very little. they didnt need to worry about them, they dont really do anything anyway.
not even raiders for that point, because only stupid raiders would try and mess with the BOS.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:02 am

Like the Vipers, which the BOS had to totally wipe out, and the Khans, who persist in attacking the BOS during and before FO1.

PIPBoy2161 · Post by **PIPBoy2161** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:48 am

hey but if you guys think about it isnt Rhombus blackish or does he just have a fucked up radioactive tan?

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:50 am

PIPBoy2161 wrote:hey but if you guys think about it isnt Rhombus blackish or does he just have a fucked up radioactive tan?

Um, no. Not in the least. If anything, the tan.

Lunchmeat · Post by **Lunchmeat** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:51 am

I think he's kind of Middle Eastern looking or Indian.

Strap · Post by **Strap** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:53 am

was he from vault 15!?!?!??111
nah, heheh. kinda like aradesh.

i dont think that human race differences were really a big deal, more like ghoul/mutie/human type race differences.

VasikkA · Post by **VasikkA** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:21 pm

SeanDMan wrote:I don't think that the Brotherhood recruited AT ALL as was referrenced in FOT's opening movie. Just like everyone in Vault 13 was born in Vault 13, so was everyone in Lost Hills.

Funny, I didn't see a mating level while walking around the Lost Hills bunker. I assume they have to scout for possible recruits around the wastelands to maintain a certain level of manpower. Even though they wear a power armor, doesn't mean that they are immortal. By the way, I usually skip all the assumptions that were made in FOT.

I think that tensions arising due to the impending war with the Mutants and the fact that Necropolis was defined as largely a caravans graveyard would likely have led to suspicion and racism in regards to ghouls. However, as we saw with Marcus and Jacob, not everyone in either the Master's Army or the Brotherhood is hell bent on them being the master race and the sole inheritence of the earth,

Well, it was obvious that they were concerned about the Super Mutants in Fallout 2(and The Enclave in FO2) but they didn't take an active role in destroying them. It was the Vault Dwellers job. I think they were more concerned about the level of technology The Enclave had, that was superior to BOS. Ghouls and tribals on the other hand are not a considerable threat to them(or anyone else), so I don't think they care about it at all. I don't see why they would be racist, though. Spazmo made a good point about the power armor, you can't see the person who wears it.

This, is largely just guesswork on our part using what limited evidence we have. But we know that the scribes in FoT had a respect for the ghouls intelligence and that the Brotherhood was doing experiments with mutant corpses and the FEV virus. This would suggest a curiousity, even if only among a scientific minority in a millitaristic majority. For them to be racist or curious is naturally acceptable, since when you are isolated from a way of life, you either learn to look upon it as a mystery to explore or a abhorrance to ignore. One thing is certain, is that they were not amblivious.

True, but curiosity does not mean they crave for destruction and domination. They just want to understand what happens around them. I'd like the BOS to have a more passive role in Fallout 3, and not as the main focus.

Remember, as well, that the Brotherhood represented in FoT was a more racially tolerant group then the core Brotherhood based in NC. Which makes it funny that they were so racist, as the Brotherhood from the RPGs was not portrayed as such and the subject was generally not discussed. I think the main reason is the Brotherhood's portrayal as good guys: not the saviour of the wastes we see them in BOS, but more of a guardian of a better future. To portray them as racist, however natural or well justified and explained, would taint that image, as racism is largely seen as a bad thing. In a post apocolyptic world, I think even a racism such as Vault City's would be a nesscessary evil, but, you see how everyone of us sees them as assholes. We'd likely look at the Brotherhood even moreso, since they don't have a single black person in their bunker.

The Brotherhood presented in FOT was severely corrupted. It completely neglected it's orignal cause; to protect and preserve pre-war technology. I have to admit though, that it doesn't really offer a deep philosophical basis for their activities.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:38 pm

VasikkA, I disagree. While the BOs would occasionally recruit from outside, it wasn't standard. The bulk of new recruits came from good Brotherhood stock, and if they weren't born of the Brotherhood, they were certainly raised by it. Recruits from outside like the Vault Dweller and--to a lesser extent--the Chosen One were oddities. I know that during the period of FO1, the BOS had sort of stopped recruiting--and thus had sent VD on the improbable suicide mission--and that there would thus be mroe recruits outside of that period, but I still don't think they would take many people from outside for any other purpose than breeding. I figure the Brotherhood would occasionally see someone they wanted to add to the genepool. They would then send one of their own to mate with that person and then raise the child within the Bunker.

But I'm talking out of my ass here; all of this is how I think it would be.

And also, the Brotherhood would have gone to war with the mutants sooner or later. The Vault Dweller actually stopped them from going on a full-frontal assault so he could sneak in and stuff.

SeanDMan · Post by **SeanDMan** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 10:59 am

Bah, I missed a lot of discussion. Anyway, this is C&Ped from FO Bible 8 (we wub you MCA)

Dislike of Mutants: Their dislike of mutants has mostly to do with the BOS' position on the Fallout world map (Lost Hills' proximity to the Military Base which has spawned a crapload of mutants, and not just the Master's super mutants) and their military psychology (if you are cooped up in a bunker for, oh, 80+ years, you really need an enemy to focus your attention on, or you'll start fighting amongst yourselves). It doesn't hurt that most mutants look butt-ugly and are (mostly) blood-thirsty slavering beasts.

Ghouls are a different matter. BOS contact with ghouls (around the times of F2) has been limited, but negative - it's difficult for the BOS to respect a stumbling crew of emaciated scavengers that tend to dismantle or FUBAR old world technology. BOS' anger grew even further when various salvaging operations began in the Glow (a location which the BOS came to regard highly both for their fallen comrades and the Pre-War technology there) with ghouls at the forefront. Most BOS members see ghouls as filthy scavengers.

Interesting...

Oh, and responding to the stupidty of this statement...

Funny, I didn't see a mating level while walking around the Lost Hills bunker. I assume they have to scout for possible recruits around the wastelands to maintain a certain level of manpower. Even though they wear a power armor, doesn't mean that they are immortal. By the way, I usually skip all the assumptions that were made in FOT.

Gee, I didn't see the mating level in Vault 13. I guess when they get horny, they go fuck some cave rats.

There are beds everywhere in Lost Hills... and just like Vault 13, which you can see in the artwork has 10 or so levels, it was abreviated because we really don't need to see five levels with nothing but living rooms and NPCs with the same fucking floating text... :roll:

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:03 pm

Well, that clears it up, atoga. Thanks!

SeanDMan · Post by **SeanDMan** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:00 pm

Yeah! Cheers atoga!

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:33 pm

Uh, yeah. Sorry, SDM.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:36 pm

Talk about mistaken identity. Oh well, cheers to me at any rate.