JE Sawyer on MAD GUN SKILLZ

[Viktor]

So that's the Fallout universe setting and canon, the combat system, the weapons classes, the NPC interaction AND the SPECIAL system that they've took a big smelly dump all over?

Guess Chuck didn't want my £34.99 after all...

[EN.]

[Well he may be wrong on that count, but at least he's trying to fix that problem regardless of whether it exists or not.
He might just end up having the game have to many really powerful weapons that you could finish the game with and make it too easy...

Well, the problem is, that he's saying this is also the case in Fallout 2, which certainly isn't true. The gauss rifle and gauss pistol are a fuckload better in terms of stats when you factor in the ammo bonuses for the 2MM EC. The gauss rifle takes the same number of AP to fire as the Pulse Rifle, and the damage range for the Gauss Rifle, factoring in the ammo bonuses, is 68-84.5 damage! That easily beats the Pulse Rifle's 54-78 damage range. The average damage yield for the Gauss Rifle is 76.25 versus the Pulse Rifle's 66 average damage yield. So, honestly, how the bloody hell can this guy even remotely claim END OF DISCUSSION when he's FLAT OUT WRONG on the subject?

In other words, his whole reason behind streamlining the skills in Fallout's SPECIAL system is based on erroneous information.

Very good point. However, I'd like to say that unless JE decides to force players into taking perks for their gun of choice, or the player is *so* stupid that they don't increase their marksmanship/firearms skill even though they use guns, I don't really see this problem arising.

The main problem I have with it is that it's a Third Edition D&D mechanic that I don't care much for. Why? Because it locks the player in to using one weapon.

You only get one perk every three levels, right? So, if you want to diversify, you have to raise your level three times just to get that extra perk. This is better than having three skills? Please, tell me how this is a better idea. Seriously.

At least with the three skills method, and you branched out to Energy Weapons from Small Arms, you at least are able to actually use a variety of firearms, laser rifles for sniping, pulse rifles for up close, gauss pistols for clean up, and so forth. Under JE's perk deal, you're talking about burning 9 levels just to do that, and missing out on two other perks.

Here's the kicker, in those 9 levels, with getting around 20 skill points per level.. That's 180 skill points. You could raise Energy weapns from 2% to 141%! Without tagging! AND YOU'D STILL HAVE THREE PERKS TO SPEND!

Come on, how the bloody hell is this even REMOTELY better? Please try and explain that. It was a stupid idea in 3E and it's even worse degenerating SPECIAL to be like it. Hell, it even defeats the purpose of JE's argument, that most people end Fallout with one weapon, the Turbo Plasma Rifle, because that'd be the end result because this is a fuckload less flexible.

Wouldn't you just be able to use any weapon if you have a high gun skill? With only one skill, no matter what gun you are using, your skill would correlate directly to your level in that single skill. Perks are just so that you can do even better with certain guns.

So a guy with like, 200% Marksmanship/Guns/Firearms who took all diplomacy perks should be able to use a .44 magnum as well as a vindicator minigun as easily as each other. Maybe I got something wrong, which I usually do, but wouldn't that kinda... be... like... flexible? You're basicallly able to use any gun in the entire game.

However, a guy with 200% marksmanship/guns/firearms with some sniper perks should be able to waste stuff easily with a sniper rifle, but just not quite as well with a vindicator minigun- he can still use the vindicator minigun rather effectively, but not with the effectiveness of a sniper rifle.

However, should J.E. make perks a requirement instead of an enhancement for use of certain guns, then your argument is perfectly valid and everyone would be trapped in certain weapons.

There is a lot of difference between a perk that lets you use a sniper rifle, and a perk that adds 10 damage to all sniper rifle attacks.

[Mr. Teatime]

I wouldn't post this on the BIS forums because I try to be a bit more positive there, if only in the hope that I can influence the devs to go in the right direction. But dear god, it's one thing after another that's being shitted over to appeal to the mass market and make a sub standard game. I see far more 'features' that depress me rather than make me think, 'oh it's good they're including that'. Four months ago I would have been over the moon at a Fallout 3 being made, but now, first with FO:POS and now what I'm reading about Van Buren, I kind of just don't want it to be made. I guess Fallout really is dead until we can get it to the original designers, people who have the least chance of fucking it over. Or in the case of Puuk , 'hell yeah you can have a level 1 supermutant playable character,' is that Puuking it over?

EDIT:
Ok this post maybe was a bit harsh towards the designers of a game we don't know much about and if I offended them I apologise (I'm not editing my original post because they've probably seen it anyway if they're going to see it and I don't like 'hiding' what I've said ). I know that JE reads these forums, and as I have always said on the BIS forums I believe him to be an intelligent person who is knowledgable about the FO universe, and his interactions with fanboys like me on forums is definately a good sign. There are just some design decisions, that taken in their current context, seem so 'wrong' for a FO game to be good.... but there's still time and I believe the devs know how the majority of the hardcore fans (those who post here and NMA) feel about things. And yes I made this edit after rereading my post and being made aware that the BIS developers might actually read what I wrote here and like I said I still want to influence them in the way I feel is the right direction

[Langy]

Mr. T: Are you reading the same info as I am? Anyways, I'll count the number of problems that I can think of that people seem to have with FO3 and then the number of good things that people like about it and see how many new features are 'good' and how many are 'bad.'

Bad
-Merging all Firearms Skills
-Merging Melee and Throwing
-Partial control of one NPC during combat
-Different playable races
-Getting rid of Gambling (is this really that bad, though? It was almost completely useless in the other two games, even worse than Barter... *shrug*)
-Coop Multiplayer
-Changed skill progression system (I actually like this idea, though *shrug*)
-3D Engine (even though it is good looking and is just isometric/top down view)

8 Total

Good
-Merging Doctor and First Aid
-Splitting Speech
-Making Science (now electronics?), Repair (now Mechanics?), FirstAid&DoctorCombo (Medic?), and Traps? (Explosives?) able to make items
-Giving more functionality to the new Speech skills
-Giving more functionality to Barter
-Easier NPC Party Member interfacing (like going to their inventory screen from the interface instead of through talking)
-More NPC interaction
-Better Unarmed Combat
-A more 'in the wastes' feel (IE less ammo/supplies)

9 Total


Now, I might have miscounted, but there are still more features that I can see diehard FO fans liking than them not liking. Now, if I weighted the skills, that might be a slightly different list...

BTW, pls don't kill me if I missed something:p

[Saint_Proverbius]

I would put that Unarmed combo crap under "Bad". I also don't like the idea of having control of NPCs to the point of being able to swap stuff out of their inventories. I thought Fallout had a much better system where you couldn't strip down an NPC of everything he's worth, then ditch him. For example, it's cheaper to "buy" Sulik than it is to buy a leather jacket and just swipe his jacket. Then you can take his hammer and sell that, too!

It's one of those things where you're asked to believe that an NPC has a personality, but you can freely take his stuff. So, I don't consider FREE REIGN over NPC items to be a good thing.

Less ammo isn't cool either, since it's already been established why there's so much ammo in the wasteland, people are still making it. That was established in two games. If we're talking about supplies like having to carry around food, that sucks too.

[Langy]

You had free reign over NPC items in Fallout 2, too, Saint P.

As for supplies, I was more talking about medical supplies. Anyways, judging by the way you want there to be huge loads of ammo (okay, maybe I'm exagerating a bit here:p) I'll guess that you want to go around and have FO3 be a big Hack 'n Slash (well, Fire 'n Burn? Shoot 'n Kill? *shrug*), huh? So you can go around with (virtually) 1500 HP (due to stims) and thousands of bullets and just kill whatever you want, even when you don't have much skill in guns because you just have sooo much ammo it doesn' really matter if you hit or not, eh?

Okay, so I know that you don't want FO3 to become a hack 'n slash type of game. Of course not. Neither do I. I just think that making limited ammo will actually help with the atmosphere of the game, as well as help fix the problem with being richer than Bill Gates is now at the end of the game. *shrug*

[Saint_Proverbius]

You had free reign over NPC items in Fallout 2, too, Saint P.

That's probably why I mentioned the Sulik exploit.

[Langy]

You could do it in the original Fallout, too. You just had to use the Steal skill, but even with a horrid skill they never caught you. So saying to go back to the original's system doesn't really fit there, I think:p

[axelgreese]

You could do it in the original Fallout, too. You just had to use the Steal skill, but even with a horrid skill they never caught you. So saying to go back to the original's system doesn't really fit there, I think:p

it's called an exploit. basically, cheating.

You can also DL programs to hack your character, does that mean you should do it?

Not quite the same thing of course, but it's the same idea.

[Langy]

I had thought you were supposed to be able to do that in the original... *shrug*

[4too]

Fighting will always be the prime objective. This is a "mass market" product.
Never fear, the Wastes will run red with the blood of the fodder. Our PC and his walking-waking, Multiple Personality Projections, the NPC's, will be 6 player characters for the price of one. Six packs sell.

The 'less ammo' is a "Trojan Horse".

Less ammo, doesn't mean 'more' speech and diplomacy, it means more melee and hand to hand fighting. I expect a dual handed sword wielding ability will be available to "Rangers" like D + D. Less ammo would open up the gates to the uber sophisticated hand to hand "interacting" that JE proposes. We will not be ""Woo'ed"" single handedly.

"BUFFY the VAMP" in Wasteland.

"Less ammo" will not starve the action like "less bread" did in games that
required constant food maintenace. Remember how your party would 'run out of gas'? Think nutrician and bodily fluids will be cramping our style when we have thousands of rats to kill for the greater glory of I'play?

Now all we need are PSY Powers, spoon bending, (porno)graphic scenes with our imaginary friends (the NPC submissives) and we'll be ready for
mass multiplayer subscription discounts for the first million or three that
buy FO3.

4too

[Jeff]

I had thought you were supposed to be able to do that in the original... *shrug*

Yeah, makes a lot sense that you have to steal and plant everything within your friends istead of just giving it to them! :S

[atoga]

Less ammo isn't cool either, since it's already been established why there's so much ammo in the wasteland, people are still making it. That was established in two games. If we're talking about supplies like having to carry around food, that sucks too.

The BOS, one of the main ammo sources, is pretty much dead. So's the hub. Of course, how hard is it to make shotgun shells with a simple kit? Not very. I could probably do a bunch myself in under an hour. Of course, different types of ammo can be a lot harder. 7.62mm NATO anyone? .50 cal perhaps?

it's called an exploit. basically, cheating.

The steal skill definately needs to be remedied. First of all, you shouldn't automatically know if you succeeded (people might report you to the police later), and the difficulty of stealing should also be increased. Also, it should have more quest applications (ie. planting items on people, such as the wire tap on Gizmo in Fallout 1).

"Less ammo" will not starve the action like "less bread" did in games that
required constant food maintenace.

Agreed. After all, Saint is the one who goes on and on about "skills being used in different ways." It's not hard to justify the fact that ammunition would be rare in the wasteland, Saint.

[Spazmo]

The BOS is dead? Since when? Their influence may have been reduced, but I'll bet you anything that they're still producing ammo and eating. THe BOS usually trades weapons and ammo for food and supplies. Why would they stop doing that?

As for the Hub, it's not certain what happened to it. I'm pretty sure there was an ending to FO1 where the Hub survives; and even if it doesn't, the NCR has a state named Hub, which suggests that they rebuilt the place.

[atoga]

The BOS is dead? Since when? Their influence may have been reduced, but I'll bet you anything that they're still producing ammo and eating. THe BOS usually trades weapons and ammo for food and supplies. Why would they stop doing that?

If there aren't many people to (1) make new ammo and (2) trade it, then yes - the BOS, for purposes of making and selling ammo, is prety much dead. Even if they did rebuild after Fallout 2, they don't stand much of a chance.

As for the Hub, it's not certain what happened to it. I'm pretty sure there was an ending to FO1 where the Hub survives; and even if it doesn't, the NCR has a state named Hub, which suggests that they rebuilt the place.

Could be.

[Spazmo]

If there aren't many people to (1) make new ammo and (2) trade it, then yes - the BOS, for purposes of making and selling ammo, is prety much dead. Even if they did rebuild after Fallout 2, they don't stand much of a chance.

Who says there aren't many people to make new ammo and trade it? Matt tells you the BOS has declined somewhat, but that doesn't mean the whole thing suddenly ceased to exist!

[atoga]

Somewhat? I only recall three BOS people in Fallout 2, one of which dies near the end. Compared to the 50+ fully armed BOS soldiers & scribes in Fallout 1 (not to mention random encounters).

[Spazmo]

Oh, come on! Now you're just being silly. Yes, the BOS has a limited presence in the north, but Lost Hills still exists!

Furthermore, it's naive to imagine that only Miles and Smitty, the BOS and the Gunrunners know how to make ammunition and are doing it. I bet Vault City at least can make it's own ammo. And hell, maybe after the Oil Rig blew up, the survivors at Navarro decided to become a part of the Wasteland.

[Franz Schubert]

I also don't like the idea of having control of NPCs to the point of being able to swap stuff out of their inventories. I thought Fallout had a much better system where you couldn't strip down an NPC of everything he's worth, then ditch him.

Remember, you don't have to do that. I've never done that once, and the fact that you can never hurt me at all. Don't nitpick over silly things like that, it's like the joey infinite money bug (unpatched version). If someone really wants to cheat, they can either exploit bugs like that, or use an editor, it makes no difference to them and it shouldn't make any difference to "legit" players like you and me.

It's one of those things where you're asked to believe that an NPC has a personality, but you can freely take his stuff.

Saint, what if you have run out of room in your inventory, and you need to pick up some stuff, you should be able to have your friend carry some of it. And then, you should be able to ask for it back when you need it again. So maybe what you're saying is that you should be able to take stuff that you give them out of their inventory, but the stuff that they start with should not be able to be taken out? That just seems kind of pointless.

Less ammo isn't cool either, since it's already been established why there's so much ammo in the wasteland, people are still making it. That was established in two games.

Yes, people are still making ammo, that's why ammo isn't completely gone in FO1&2. My main point about the ammo scarcity is that it simply should be less abundant. Ammo conservation should be a fairly big factor in my decisions.

If we're talking about supplies like having to carry around food, that sucks too.

Agreed

[Saint_Proverbius]

Saint, what if you have run out of room in your inventory, and you need to pick up some stuff, you should be able to have your friend carry some of it. And then, you should be able to ask for it back when you need it again. So maybe what you're saying is that you should be able to take stuff that you give them out of their inventory, but the stuff that they start with should not be able to be taken out? That just seems kind of pointless.

This is another reason why I don't care much for it.. The idea that NPCs are mules to carry your excess shit around. I could understand if you were PAYING an NPC that he'd do your muling, since that's what you're paying him to do. However, when you load up an NPC with stuff, there should be a factor in there where maybe, just maybe, he's thinking he's getting a cut of the loot.

After all, if you want NPCs to seem like real people, how long do you think they'd stick with you if they never got anything in return? Think of playing tabletop role-playing games. How often is it that the party picks up all the loot in an area, then when it comes time to sell the loot, everyone freely gives the loot to one player who sells it and keeps the damned money?

Yes, people are still making ammo, that's why ammo isn't completely gone in FO1&2. My main point about the ammo scarcity is that it simply should be less abundant. Ammo conservation should be a fairly big factor in my decisions.

Why would there be less ammo if people like the BOS are continually making the stuff? If places like Vault City are making it? Hell, if people like the PLAYER CHARACTER can make it, which is one thing JE Sawyer is suggesting in those labs of his? I really don't think those labs are just there, waiting for the player to make stuff, do you?