JE wants their opinion(not yours)

[Strap]

As for trading, very few people traded with the gunrunners because of the Deathclaws, and most of Adytum's ammo was reserved for the regulators. Besides, it really does detract from the setting, ammo should be rare, and precious.

I wouldn't mind a slider allowing you to adjust the amount of ammo available in the game, it could be one of the difficulty settings.

Example: Ammo Availability: Scarce, Normal, Abundant.

i dont think you should be able to chose that for yourself, it should be encoperated into the dificulty setting... unless the difficulty setting had many variable settings... like: ammo, stimpacks, exp?, or other handycaps. otherwise it should be like: hard makes less ammo, and it is more sought after. etc.. for easier dificulties.
but having it as the only extra variable seems out of place, it needs something else, like the healing supplies or whatever... but then again it makes it seem like a survival game (not that it isnt, deep down)

[Killa-Killa]

Maybe just have a seperate column of "combat options". after all, in FO3 the menu won't be at 640x480(or hatever the first two were in, can't remember), so you can have several more options in the screen. f course too many would make the mall tiny, but as long as they dont go overboard with it....

[Doyle]

And you're forgetting that feeding your party is not fun. It's even less fun to die not because of combat or poison or something interesting, but because you starve. This gameplay element hasn't appeared in an RPG in years because it is not fun.

Petey said it well. It may not add a lot of fun to the game, but it's not less fun. Having no real world weapons doesn't make the game more fun, but, like forcing you to monitor your water, could help immersion.

[Petey_the_Skid]

Well in the original they had two sliders for difficulty already, one that effected combat and one that effected non-comabt situations, I envison it could be something like that, but that it regulates the availability of amm as well.

It also gives the player more choice in how he wants to approach the game. I'm generally a packrat in games, saving up every scrap of ammo and one shot item in the game until I absolutely need them. when i finish a game that's set in a psot apocalypse world with several thousand rounds of ammo, it seems kind of silly.

[N]

Gambling and Throwing are support skills that are just not very useful in many situations. Anything specially designed to suit these skills would very likely seem obvious and contrived.

You're right. Quality gamblers (especially poker players) don't have a good idea of how to read people, their faces, bluff, etc. Personally, I think, again, that it was just not well implemented and/or perhaps provide synergistic skills. For example -- in a certain instance, you could use your skills as a gambler (bluffing, reading motive, intuition, etc) as a bit of a synergy to someone who's trying to lie and/or cheat you. But hey, you're entitled to your own opinion.

On throwing -- again, I just don't believe the game does it justice. I don't think there was a wide enough variety of throwing items...more types of grenades other than just frag and plasma, would be nice. Molotov cocktails should have been able to set on fire opponents in the blast and/or provide burn damage over a period of time. Other throwing items (like a pseudo shark-dart, or weapons like knives and/or spears that could be coated with something like poison or similar (another use for an outdoor/doctor/first aid, whatever skill?)) would have been interesting. Throwing grappling hooks to climb on top of things like buildings or climbing up the back of a cliff for an ambush. (and again, I don't believe that for some of the throwing options, the AP balance was proper either) What about using things like bolas to trip people down? What about using nets or the like to trap/snare people?

You're right on First Aid/Doctor -- something there might need to be tweaked, although again -- in my eyes, it would go above and beyond just thinking in a hitpoint manner. First aid would/should be faster, especially if used in combat, than doctor -- and together, there could be some sort of synergistic bonus. However, the wide distribution of stimpacks is what made these skills trite -- the first time I played Fallout I gave that character a good dose of first aid because I figured "hey, out where there aren't going to be a lot of supplies, this will be useful". But once I learned that there are just 'stimpacks' which can take you from one step on death's door all the way to full health without **ANY** negative repurcussions (even if it takes a few)...yes, why would you need first aid or doctor?

Rather than spend time on creating elements in the game that kill me, or make me spend time finding some corn or berries to feed on (again, rolls to find things and get like water or the like, automatically -- or maybe just stop you now and then and give you hit point damage), spend time on thinking about how you can create immersion through more use of the skills...hey, you're right, in the wasteland food would be hard to come by, and having to find food would be important. But to me, having to feed my character in any RPG has always made it, for me, less fun. I'd much rather have to scrounge for things like medical supplies (which aren't quite so "easy" in terms of their effect to heal you in such a widespread manner), and weapons and ammunition. It's not a big deal to critically fail and lose a clip of ammo or jam/break a weapon, when they're as readily available as air to breathe, than when you really count your bullets carefully and pick your shots sparingly.

But again, that's just my opinion -- spend more time on fleshing out the game world in terms of utilizing player skills on a level of balancing them in terms of use (both in situations, dialogue, and resources), then adding in a lot of functionality for having to feed my character on a mundane level to keep him alive.

[Saint_Proverbius]

As for trading, very few people traded with the gunrunners because of the Deathclaws, and most of Adytum's ammo was reserved for the regulators. Besides, it really does detract from the setting, ammo should be rare, and precious.

No, the ammo in Adytum wasn't just for the regulators, you could buy it from Smitty. The Gunrunners weren't always blocked by the Deathclaws, and post Fallout 1, they wouldn't be blocked anymore either. We're talking about a sequel to Fallout 2, here. Those Deathclaws are long, long dead.

Petey said it well. It may not add a lot of fun to the game, but it's not less fun. Having no real world weapons doesn't make the game more fun, but, like forcing you to monitor your water, could help immersion.

Having to constantly carry around food and water isn't fun at all. Making sure you always have it isn't fun at all, either. I fail to see how it's fun to have to maintain a supply of stuff in your inventory or else suffer dire consequences is fun, period.

i dont think you should be able to chose that for yourself, it should be encoperated into the dificulty setting... unless the difficulty setting had many variable settings... like: ammo

It'd be rather silly to have an option that erases one of the tentants of Fallout and Fallout 2, considering it was established in both games that people were pumping out ammo.

[Jeff]

Petey said it well. It may not add a lot of fun to the game, but it's not less fun. Having no real world weapons doesn't make the game more fun, but, like forcing you to monitor your water, could help immersion.

Depends on the implementation - I strongly believe it would lead to micromanagement though, and that is less fun. I don't care how immersive it is to stop every 10 seconds to eat or drink while travelling, I still think it's just annoying. I didn't like how your character stopped to take 0 points of damage because of lack of water in FO1, and I really don't like the idea of eating and drinking either. I'd rather worry about the mutant threat or whatever than if I have enough water in my inventory for my trip to Junktown. The Sims is a decent example, taking care of eating and bathing and shit like that gets tedious after a while, and that's pretty much the fucking point of that game :B

[axelgreese]

It's called abstraction, who's to say your character isn't eating and drinking along the way? You just arn't seeing it, use your imagination.

And the game does have food and drink in it already, if you feel inclined to buy food and drink to help the feel and imersion, go ahead.

[Doyle]

It's called abstraction, who's to say your character isn't eating and drinking along the way? You just arn't seeing it, use your imagination.

Exactly. That's why it makes no sense to argue that having to have water means to have to make your character drink eight 8 oz glasses during the course of the day. All it does is a add a new level to the post-apocolyptic environment. Depending on when the game takes place, having sources of clean water that you have to worry about would be a big plus. You could have new quests that don't necessarily fit with the main plot, but aren't as far out as searching a shitter for a watch because they still make sense within the setting.

And the game does have food and drink in it already, if you feel inclined to buy food and drink to help the feel and imersion, go ahead.

You might as well ask Saint why he doesn't stare at a wall and "role-play" Fallout just like he wants it.

Having to constantly carry around food and water isn't fun at all. Making sure you always have it isn't fun at all, either. I fail to see how it's fun to have to maintain a supply of stuff in your inventory or else suffer dire consequences is fun, period.

What about ammo and stimpacks?

Hell, it's not about the mechanic that adds fun anyway, it's about making the atmosphere of the game more fun. I don't know about you, but I thought it was pretty cool when Tycho talked about not drinking perfectly clear water in the first game. It felt like something your character, fresh from the Vault, would really need to know in the world. Just like that worked in the setting, having to monitor your overall water level could work too.

As for micromanagement, that doesn't have to be any more complicated that determining how much water your party can consume, which doesn't have to be any more than a button in your inventory screen. You could drink as much as your character wants in some situations, or you could tighten your belt, so to speak, and cut down on your water consumption if you have to cross large stretches of Wasteland, perhaps with some kind of slight negative because you aren't getting as much as you need.

Heh. Maybe I should suggest this to JE. If it irks Saint, it's almost certain to be included. ;)

[N]

Having to manage ammo and stimpacks isn't the same as having to manage food and water. Why?

Because if I drop all my bullets and stimpacks, there's no physical damage to my character that results, directly.

But if I don't have water and food in my inventory, then I would die, right?

I just REALLY hate having mandatory inventory items in a mechanic like that. Like, there was some game I played a looong time ago where you were in a cave, and if you ran out of torches, you died.

Realistic? Sure. *Immersive*? Maybe. A huge pain in the ass. Sure.

Hey, maybe some of you like having to manage more and more aspects of your character, and I can understand that. But it's a very, very fine/tricky line to get it done to where it's quaint and adds to the depth and immersion of the setting, and when it becomes a fucking bother.

[Crazy Tuvok]

Normally I loathe the mechanics involved in managing food, water, torches etc... Not so much because the idea sucks but usually because the implementation is done poorly.
That said I have to admit I rather like the idea for an FO game. It makes sense and if done well can add to the immersion factor (a term that is quickly becoming like "synergy" did in biz circles in the 90s). It adds to the threat of the wastes, just like making sure you had a rope and some rad-away/rad x before heading into The Glow - made it that much more menacing. Forgive my lack of memeory (drink too much and it has been a while since I played) but didn't Avernum 3 have something along these lines?
I for one am in favor of making ammo scarcer and there is no reason why this has to violate canon just because it was being manufactured in 1 and 2. *Plenty* of ways to explain it and it, for me, makes the wastes a more dangerous place and adds to the feeling of a ruined, struggling civilization.

[Jeff]

What about ammo and stimpacks?

Well, you could replace them with good HtH/melee and first aid/doctor skills - they're not exactly mandatory whereas drink and food would be?

[Doyle]

But if I don't have water and food in my inventory, then I would die, right?

Not necessarily. Actually, that's one of the things I like best about the idea. You see, you should be able to buy or trade for water in a lot of different places, but it would be kind of expensive. However, with the Outdoorsman skill you could supplement or even completely ignore the requirements to carry water around with you.

Like someone mentioned, the idea isn't completely new. In the original Fallout, you could take damage if you didn't have water, but it was like a point or two. Neat idea, dumb implementation. As a result, there really was no reason whatsoever to bother carrying water or to put any points into Outdoorsman. If water was made important, suddenly Outdoorsman becomes really useful. Even if you ran out of water totally, you might have a couple days to find a source -- checked against Outdoorsman -- before you die. Of course, this would be handled automatically; your character would be keeping an eye open for usable water before you even run out.

With a lower Outdoorsman skill, if you ran out of water you might be able to find somewhat harmful sources of water that might poison or irradiate you, but still wouldn't kill you outright. With luck you'd find a perfectly good source of water. With a moderate outdoorsman skill, you'd be able to identify and more easily locate sources of good water, and your character might automatically use this water to refill his stores and slow his water usage. Perhaps if you ran out completely, a dialog box could ask you if you'd be willing to drink bad water if you can't locate a good water source within a certain amount of time. With high outdoorsman skill, your character would be able to find water most people wouldn't think to look, like from certain plants perhaps. With high enough outdoorsman skill, maybe you could get a perk that essentially remove the need to carry significant amounts of water with you.

With a system like that, the only thing you'd have to worry about would be the water gauge and perhaps a two or three level setting regarding how much you're drinking.

Well, you could replace them with good HtH/melee and first aid/doctor skills - they're not exactly mandatory whereas drink and food would be?

Who said anything about mandatory? Saint said "dire consequences." If a gunslinger didn't carry enough ammo or stims, he could definitely suffer dire consequences. For that matter, stims are pretty much a given for any character type. Even if I wanted to try and play through the game without fighting anyone, I'd still carry a good supply of stims just in case. Can you imagine how awful the game would be without stims for just about any combat character? Only three uses each of the two medic skills in a 24 hour period and no combat uses of the skills at all!

[Jeff]

It doesn't sound so bad now that you've elaborated a bit - I'm still in doubt though. I don't know, if it was implemented well, sure it could work, but I don't think it would make the game more fun to me either. Could make it more immersive, so I'm not totally against it, it's not as bad idea as I first thought :)

Only three uses each of the two medic skills in a 24 hour period and no combat uses of the skills at all!

That's why I won't mind if he tweaks some of the skills - first aid and doctor should be more useful so that you wouldn't need to buy and carry around stimpaks (oh, I never bought them and I usually had over 100 stims every time I beat the game - maybe they should be made a bit more scarce too, gah). That said I do think SPECIAL could use some tweaking but JE's going overboard.

[Saint_Proverbius]

Forgive my lack of memeory (drink too much and it has been a while since I played) but didn't Avernum 3 have something along these lines?

Avernum 3 made you carry around food in order to "rest" to regain hitpoints. I can say that's one of the reasons I liked Geneforge better than Avernum as well. Geneforge didn't make you carry around food.

I for one am in favor of making ammo scarcer and there is no reason why this has to violate canon just because it was being manufactured in 1 and 2. *Plenty* of ways to explain it and it, for me, makes the wastes a more dangerous place and adds to the feeling of a ruined, struggling civilization.

Why would they suddenly stop making ammo? If ammo was being made by various factions in Fallout, then they're probably still doing it. Given the demand for ammo in the wasteland, I think it'd be rather obvious they could write their own ticket by doing that.

You'd basically have to severely cripple Vault City, the Brotherhood of Steel, the Gunrunners, and Adytum just to explain why it's scarce now. That's just the factions we know about, too.

[DarkUnderlord]

But if I don't have water and food in my inventory, then I would die, right?

Not necessarily. Actually, that's one of the things I like best about the idea. You see, you should be able to buy or trade for water in a lot of different places,

Hence the uselessness of it. Why bother carrying around a lot of water, if you can just buy it in the next city you visit, of from the next guy you run across in the desert? More to the point, if you ARE stuck in the middle of nowhere with no water, because you simply forgot about it, or because you didn't bother constantly monitoring your water levels, you die. FUN!!

Like someone mentioned, the idea isn't completely new. In the original Fallout, you could take damage if you didn't have water, but it was like a point or two.

It's also built into the code of the game. It didn't get implemented though.

Neat idea, dumb implementation. As a result, there really was no reason whatsoever to bother carrying water or to put any points into Outdoorsman. If water was made important, suddenly Outdoorsman becomes really useful. Even if you ran out of water totally, you might have a couple days to find a source -- checked against Outdoorsman -- before you die. Of course, this would be handled automatically; your character would be keeping an eye open for usable water before you even run out.

So again, if I don't constantly stop in the middle of the desert every X days to check that I still have enough water left, I get stuck somewhere and die. Even then though, what's the point, it just becomes another thing to have in inventory. Most players would hit a city with a lot of food and water, stock up (adding weight to your inventory and preventing you from carrying other things) and keep going. They'd probably get an NPC to carry it around for them, OR, they'd just dump a lot of supplies in the boot of the car.

With a lower Outdoorsman skill, if you ran out of water you might be able to find somewhat harmful sources of water that might poison or irradiate you, but still wouldn't kill you outright. With luck you'd find a perfectly good source of water. With a moderate outdoorsman skill, you'd be able to identify and more easily locate sources of good water, and your character might automatically use this water to refill his stores and slow his water usage. Perhaps if you ran out completely, a dialog box could ask you if you'd be willing to drink bad water if you can't locate a good water source within a certain amount of time.p

Drink bad water and what, get a few hit points damage? If it's not enough to kill you, people won't care. I think people have enough things to worry about, like high radiation areas (such as The Glow) and other things that are trying to kill them, rather than FORCING them to carry around a bunch of stuff in inventory just so they can get to the next city.

Well, you could replace them with good HtH/melee and first aid/doctor skills - they're not exactly mandatory whereas drink and food would be?

Who said anything about mandatory? Saint said "dire consequences." If a gunslinger didn't carry enough ammo or stims, he could definitely suffer dire consequences. For that matter, stims are pretty much a given for any character type. Even if I wanted to try and play through the game without fighting anyone, I'd still carry a good supply of stims just in case. Can you imagine how awful the game would be without stims for just about any combat character?

Actually, without stims, you'd probably be more inclined to visit one of the many doctors that seem to be in every major city.

[axelgreese]

You might as well ask Saint why he doesn't stare at a wall and "role-play" Fallout just like he wants it.

Wtf you talking about? You're suggesting that something already in the game will have as drastic affect on the gameplay if they add it (bear in mind, it's already there!) as say... dual weilding?

There is already drink, there is already food stuffs, in both Fallout 1 and 2 you can pretend, roleplay if you will, that you're buying if for a reason, to survive or what have you. You arn't forced to though. In other words you have the option.

[Doyle]

Hence the uselessness of it. Why bother carrying around a lot of water, if you can just buy it in the next city you visit, of from the next guy you run across in the desert?

Who said it's going to be that widely available? That's an implementation issue, and not a problem inherent with the idea.

More to the point, if you ARE stuck in the middle of nowhere with no water, because you simply forgot about it, or because you didn't bother constantly monitoring your water levels, you die. FUN!!

Do you still bowl with bumpers, DarkUndies?

Maybe I haven't said it enough, but the mechanic itself is not supposed to be fun. Just like having to have ammo in the first Fallouts in and of itself is not any fun, but using that ammo within the context of the game can be fun. Are you capable of understanding that?

I think I get what you're trying to do. Fallout fandom really does include some of the pickiest, angriest people you'll find. The take-no-bullshit attitude is a matter of pride in the community, and so of course everyone wants a piece. A bit of advice, DarkUndies, don't try it when you have no realy point to make. It makes you seem like a "Me too" when I know you're capable of more.

So again, if I don't constantly stop in the middle of the desert every X days to check that I still have enough water left, I get stuck somewhere and die.

Who says you'd have to check manually? I'd imagine the travel screen would have some kind of indicator. Maybe the number of days rations remaining at the current consumption rate. Of course, like I mentioned earlier, even if you did run out, Outdoorsman can save your hide.

Even then though, what's the point, it just becomes another thing to have in inventory. Most players would hit a city with a lot of food and water, stock up (adding weight to your inventory and preventing you from carrying other things) and keep going.

GREAT! Not only does it add more of fighting-to-survive feel to the wasteland, it makes monty haul less practical because it takes up space. Where's the negative here, Darky?

They'd probably get an NPC to carry it around for them, OR, they'd just dump a lot of supplies in the boot of the car.

Of course, that's not a total solution because NPCs would require more water still and it would still take up space in the trunk of the car. I still don't see any problem.

Drink bad water and what, get a few hit points damage? If it's not enough to kill you, people won't care.

That's not a problem inherent in the idea, that would be a problem inherent in the implementation.

I think people have enough things to worry about, like high radiation areas (such as The Glow) and other things that are trying to kill them, rather than FORCING them to carry around a bunch of stuff in inventory just so they can get to the next city.

Do we? I can never remember ever fearing to travel in either game except when I tried to use the San Fran/Navarro exploit. Considering that, it wouldn't really seem to complicate things al that much.

Actually, without stims, you'd probably be more inclined to visit one of the many doctors that seem to be in every major city.

What's your point? You still can't do that during combat or in most combat-heavy areas. Either way, it's a moot point that has no real relevance to the issue at hand.

[DarkUnderlord]

Hence the uselessness of it. Why bother carrying around a lot of water, if you can just buy it in the next city you visit, of from the next guy you run across in the desert?

Who said it's going to be that widely available?

You did, right here:

But if I don't have water and food in my inventory, then I would die, right?

Not necessarily. Actually, that's one of the things I like best about the idea. You see, you should be able to buy or trade for water in a lot of different places,

There's also the problem that if I need water, everyone else needs water. Ipso facto, everyone else I run across in the desert would need to be carrying water too, otherwise it makes no sense. Also, every town would need a place where they sell water. It's water for Christs' Sake, not a Plasma Rifle. Everyone needs it, so everyone will have it. Hence, widely available in every town. The only thing that would make it less accessible is high prices.

That's an implementation issue, and not a problem inherent with the idea.

No, the idea is fine. Making your character go to the toilet and getting involved with another character to boost his social bonus is a good idea too, but this is Fallout 3, not Fallout: Sims Edition. You're catering to a different audience.

More to the point, if you ARE stuck in the middle of nowhere with no water, because you simply forgot about it, or because you didn't bother constantly monitoring your water levels, you die. FUN!!

Do you still bowl with bumpers, DarkUndies?

Maybe I haven't said it enough, but the mechanic itself is not supposed to be fun.

Even better. A non-fun idea that's just there to add an extra layer of management to playing, and for what, exactly? This is a game Doyle, games are supposed to have things that are "fun" in them. Adding in "non-fun" things to games is inherently stupid.

Combat in Fallout is fun because you have a chance to run away, or to fight it out and perhaps kill your enemies. Stopping in the middle of the desert, staring at a brown empty map because "You run out of water" is fun in what way? Worse yet, if my outdoorsman skill is too low to find water, I die simply because at the last town I went too, I didn't have enough money to buy their insanely priced water. Probably because I didn't have enough gear in my inventory to sell because of all the damn water I had to carry around with me just to get to the town. Hence, I die, not because of a certain chain of events that occured within this encounter, but because of a series of events which occured over time.

IE: It's like getting to the end of Fallout and suddenly realising that you should've put points into things other than Doctor, Gambling and First Aid. Only worse, because the game doesn't let you recover from this one once you realise your mistake. By the time you reach the Military Base in FO1 with no water and not enough water to make it back to the Brotherhood, you're hoping you've got a save game back far enough before you wandered out this way.

OR, you don't die because lack of water doesn't kill you. In which case, you never bother even wasting money on water supplies.

Just like having to have ammo in the first Fallouts in and of itself is not any fun, but using that ammo within the context of the game can be fun. Are you capable of understanding that?

Using ammo so I can kill raiders and see a neat little death effect is fun. Forcing me to buy an item at a price, with money that I may or may not have, taking away my opportunity to buy something else (like a better weapon or better armour that would help me more) and eventually setting it up so that I can watch my character die is NOT fun.

So again, if I don't constantly stop in the middle of the desert every X days to check that I still have enough water left, I get stuck somewhere and die.

Who says you'd have to check manually? I'd imagine the travel screen would have some kind of indicator.

EVEN BETTER! As I walk the long walk back to the Hub (because the Brotherhood of Steel don't talk to me ever since I shot up their door guards) I get to watch a blue-line slowly reach 0, knowing that when it does, I'm dead because I decided to have a bit of fun and NOT put many points into Outdoorsman.

Whether there's an indicator on screen or not, it's still something I have to watch, realise it's getting low, and then hope I have enough money left to be able to buy water. It's not like combat where, if you run out of ammo, you can run away, or use your fists. This is a case where if you run out of it, you're dead.

Just to point it out incase you've missed it again: If you don't die, people won't care. If you lose hit points, people will use stimpaks or "rest until healed" and save themselves the carry weight.

Maybe the number of days rations remaining at the current consumption rate. Of course, like I mentioned earlier, even if you did run out, Outdoorsman can save your hide.

So even if I do run out of water, I can still survive IE: NOT die? What's the point in that then? If I run out of water and take a few hit points, I can take a stimpak and be all better? I still don't see what the point is in that. All you seem to want is an extra mechanic to the game just for the hell of it.

If you want to roleplay water usage, you're free to steal all the water flasks you want from Vault 13 and drop a bottle every now and then as you "empty" it and you get to buy food and eat a bit as well. FUN!

Even then though, what's the point, it just becomes another thing to have in inventory. Most players would hit a city with a lot of food and water, stock up (adding weight to your inventory and preventing you from carrying other things) and keep going.

GREAT! Not only does it add more of fighting-to-survive feel to the wasteland, it makes monty haul less practical because it takes up space. Where's the negative here, Darky?

How much does water cost? How much gear do I have in inventory? I need to not only carry enough gear from the Kahn's raider camp to sell at the Hub to buy ammo, but I'd also have to have enough that I can sell it for enough water so that I can get to the next city. GREAT!! More trips back and forth between the dead raiders camp and the Hub selling all their gear so that you can buy a decent weapon, enough ammo for you and your NPCs AND fund your constant water needs!!

Even better, on the really long journeys, like out to the Military Base, I'd need to stock up on enough water to get me out there and get me back AND all the ammo and weapons I can carry so that I can survive. And if I miscalculate the water and don't find out until I get out there, I DIE!! I'm either shot by mutants because I ran out of ammo for my chosen weapon OR, I die on the way back to the Hub GETTING more ammo for my chosen weapon.

WHAT A FUN SYSTEM!!

They'd probably get an NPC to carry it around for them, OR, they'd just dump a lot of supplies in the boot of the car.

Of course, that's not a total solution because NPCs would require more water still

So I have to monitor my NPCs use of water as well now? Woohoo. Is Dogmeat drinking too?

and it would still take up space in the trunk of the car. I still don't see any problem.

See point above.

Drink bad water and what, get a few hit points damage? If it's not enough to kill you, people won't care.

That's not a problem inherent in the idea, that would be a problem inherent in the implementation.

I'm not quite sure what your point is here (other than seemingly using the wrong argument deliberately). As I said, if lack of water is not enough to kill you, then people aren't going to care. In the long run, it may actually be better buying and hauling extra stimpaks and repair kits so that you can repair the damage, rather than hauling water, which is significantly heavier.

I think people have enough things to worry about, like high radiation areas (such as The Glow) and other things that are trying to kill them, rather than FORCING them to carry around a bunch of stuff in inventory just so they can get to the next city.

Do we? I can never remember ever fearing to travel in either game except when I tried to use the San Fran/Navarro exploit. Considering that, it wouldn't really seem to complicate things all that much.

You'll be fearing it as soon as you realise you have to make a choice between: Enough ammo, armour AND gear to sell at the next city to fund your ever increasing water demands OR more water so you can actually survive the journey without dieing of dehydration but then get to the next city and find that the price of water is so high, you're screwed.

Actually, without stims, you'd probably be more inclined to visit one of the many doctors that seem to be in every major city.

What's your point?

My point is, that without stimpaks, you'd need to visit the doctors more often and rely on other skills to heal you. Thus making high amounts of money mandatory so you can pay the doctor's fees OR forcing the PC to pick skills just so he can play and not die too often.

You're making something mandatory. When a gunslinger's badly shot-up, he can use stimpaks to heal himself if he has no money or no doctor skills. But someone who runs out of water would do what, exactly? Crawl to their death?

You still can't do that during combat or in most combat-heavy areas. Either way, it's a moot point that has no real relevance to the issue at hand.

So running out of stimpaks would be a bad thing, right? A combat character would be dead? Gee, that almost sounds just like running out of water... You can't drink water if you don't have any in the middle of the desert.

See the relevance now?

[N]

For the folks who really love the water/food gathering idea:

If your point is that, as an idea, it could be fun as long as it is implemented correctly, might I remind you that at this point THAT'S A HUGE FUCKING DEAL.

Please let them spend more time getting the implementation of more IMPORTANT skill/gameplay ideas down pat before they spend any amount of time implementing a damn water gauge.

I'd say at the MOST -- it all comes down to travel time/random encounter rate. If you have no "carried" water (that you bought) and a low outdoorsman skill, then it takes you longer to travel over land and/or thus increases your chance of random encounters, to simulate the fact it takes you longer to find water because you weren't carrying anything. This way, those who don't care to do either, don't die, and don't have to worry about directly negative consequences. (And the speed you move across the map could remain constant, but the "clock" could speed up/slow down accordingly.