Caliber changes, what do you guys think?

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:32 pm

In one of his forum posts JE remarked that the common pistol calibers would change from 10mm and .44 magnum to 9mm and .45. What do you guys think about this change?

Personally, I have mixed feelings about it. I don't really see why it's necessary to change and it is one more difference that will separate FO3 from the first two games, but on the otherhand 10mm never made sense in the setting and .44 magnum wasn't popular until Dirty Harry. Assuming that FO diverged from our world somewhere around the 50s, that would still have been true. Plus, it's a pretty small and insignificant difference anyway.

Thoughts/comments, anyone?

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:39 pm

I think it's a bit irrelevant since it changes diddly squat to the gameplay or even to the setting (ammo caliber has never been a major story element, I don't think). What mystifies me is why JE would even bother to change this. Sounds to me like some idle nitpickers at IPLY with some gun knowledge mentioned it and Sawyer decided to change it because it would make more sense or something. Frankly, I'd just leave it as it is since it makes virtually no difference.

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:52 pm

I'd have to say that 9mm is almost as bad of a choice as 10mm. That was a very unpopular cartridge during the '50s, one only used by limped wristed, pansy Europeans; not virile, red-blooded, hairy-chested 'muricans.

The FO universe is all about the commie-huntin', paranoid, US of A, except that this time the '60s never came and all of those attitudes hung around. Hence I'd say that pretty much any cartridge with a metric designation would be taboo. Why? Because we all know that the metric system is part of a communist plot to befuddle American school children, leaving their weakened minds more succeptible to indoctrination by infiltrators in the educational sytem who are also busy getting them to drink flouridated water. That's why!

Spazmo wrote:I think it's a bit irrelevant since it changes diddly squat to the gameplay or even to the setting (ammo caliber has never been a major story element, I don't think).

You might not notice it, but some people do. Actually I'd say that the ammo choices were a part of the setting, as created by the original team. Ever notice how everything in the weapons catalogue has something of an "over the top" feeling to it? The weakest gun in the game fires a 10mm cartridge, which was supposed to be the ultimate law enforcement round back in the mid-to-late '80s. Then again, it may very well be that the 10mm round of this world isnt' the one of the FO world. (They look kinda short...)

Spazmo wrote:What mystifies me is why JE would even bother to change this. Sounds to me like some idle nitpickers at IPLY with some gun knowledge mentioned it and Sawyer decided to change it because it would make more sense or something. Frankly, I'd just leave it as it is since it makes virtually no difference.

Could be. Then again whenever I get a new apartment I always piss in the sink, just to make it mine. M'be JE's doin' the same thing here.

OTB

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:02 pm

You do have a good point, OTB. .38 Special would probably make more sense than 9mm, but then you'd be limited to only using revolvers with that round.

As far as the motivation for the change, Spazmo, I'd have to disagree. It seems to me it was one of his "Why not change more?" changes, although it did have a little more justification than some of his others. Here's what he said about it:

In our world, 9mm and .45 pistols are really, really common. They are also different enough from each other that people favor those ammo types for different reasons.

Civilians, especially ones living in a world where they think they might be overrun by commies, are likely to have a greater volume of firearms and bullest than law enforcement agents.

Chris Taylor picked the 10mm because it is modern. In fact, it's only really seen use in the past decade (90s) by law enforcement agents. When I (and many people, I believe), think of .45s and 9mms, they see G.I.s running through French fields with Thompsons and German officers with Lugers -- the era immediately prior to the rise of the atomic age.

It also makes me wonder if we'll see the return of real-world weapons. Has he said anything about that?

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:17 pm

OnTheBounce wrote:Actually I'd say that the ammo choices were a part of the setting, as created by the original team. Ever notice how everything in the weapons catalogue has something of an "over the top" feeling to it? The weakest gun in the game fires a 10mm cartridge, which was supposed to be the ultimate law enforcement round back in the mid-to-late '80s. Then again, it may very well be that the 10mm round of this world isnt' the one of the FO world. (They look kinda short...)

Interesting theory, but I don't think that's the case. I once asked Tim Cain about that choice here at DAC, turns out Chris Taylor made the decision and he was kind enough to stop by and say this:

I picked 10mm since it wasn't popular, had been tested by the FBI at one point (and found lacking), but it was basically a gun nut (which I am one) kind of round.

Sorry about posting right after myself, but my copy/paste functions don't seem to be working properly, so I didn't want to try and add OTB's edit to my original post!

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:18 pm

Doyle wrote:You do have a good point, OTB. .38 Special would probably make more sense than 9mm, but then you'd be limited to only using revolvers with that round.

What's wrong w/only having revolvers at the beginning of the game? In fact, would it really be such a bad thing to have something like a .38/.357 revolver w/6 shots as one option, and a .45 auto w/7 shots as the other?

Doyle wrote:Interesting theory, but I don't think that's the case. I once asked Tim Cain about that choice here at DAC, turns out Chris Taylor made the decision and he was kind enough to stop by and say this:

C. Taylor wrote:I picked 10mm since it wasn't popular, had been tested by the FBI at one point (and found lacking), but it was basically a gun nut (which I am one) kind of round.

Yes, I remember that conversation. However, I'm a proponent of ignoring C. Taylor as much as possible, at least when it comes to guns, after all, he's the man who gave us the 10mm, 12-shot revolver.

BTW, I have no idea as to why he said that the round was "found lacking" when tested by the FBI.

OTB

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:48 pm

OnTheBounce wrote:What's wrong w/only having revolvers at the beginning of the game? In fact, would it really be such a bad thing to have something like a .38/.357 revolver w/6 shots as one option, and a .45 auto w/7 shots as the other?

That wouldn't be so bad, I guess, but of course then you might run the risk of people complaining that the weapons were becoming too realistic. Frankly, as long as they didn't specifically model them after real weapons and they used generic names like ".38 Revolver" or ".45 Automatic" I wouldn't care. I actually kind of like the idea of including more revolvers in the game, I think revolvers are fun to handle and shoot.

Yes, I remember that conversation. However, I'm a proponent of ignoring C. Taylor as much as possible, at least when it comes to guns, after all, he's the man who gave us the 10mm, 12-shot revolver.

Well, yeah a lot of Fallout fans do that, and there's some good reason there. However, since he made all the decisions about the guns it's hard to do that in this case. Your theory, which does sound nice, will never be more than a theory at best, a daydream at worst.

By the way, don't you mean 12-shot automatic? I think his justification there was that 9mm guns like M92s can carry 15 rounds or more, so 10mm weapons should be able to carry almost as much. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the 10mm handgun looks too narrow to have a double-stack magazine...

BTW, I have no idea as to why he said that the round was "found lacking" when tested by the FBI.

Yeah, he never specified what he meant. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he was refering to the fact that it's too much gun for some agents to handle.

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:05 pm

Doyle wrote:Well, yeah a lot of Fallout fans do that, and there's some good reason there. However, since he made all the decisions about the guns it's hard to do that in this case. Your theory, which does sound nice, will never be more than a theory at best, a daydream at worst.

Are you telling me to put the crackpipe down, mister?! :p

Doyle wrote:By the way, don't you mean 12-shot automatic? I think his justification there was that 9mm guns like M92s can carry 15 rounds or more, so 10mm weapons should be able to carry almost as much. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the 10mm handgun looks too narrow to have a double-stack magazine...

Someone asked about the 10mm pistol, since they thought that there was a cylinder on it. C. Taylor confirmed that it was indeed supposed to be a revolver, and that the desc for the item was a mistake. This is on p. 43 of FoB 8.

Doyle wrote:Yeah, he never specified what he meant. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he was refering to the fact that it's too much gun for some agents to handle.

A very dangerous thing to do when listening to "gun geeks".

OTB

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:11 pm

OnTheBounce wrote:Are you telling me to put the crackpipe down, mister?! :p

Hey, whatever makes you happy.

Someone asked about the 10mm pistol, since they thought that there was a cylinder on it. C. Taylor confirmed that it was indeed supposed to be a revolver, and that the desc for the item was a mistake. This is on p. 43 of FoB 8.

Holy shit, you're right! It does have a cylinder! What a crappy looking revolver. Wow...

Evil Natured Robot · Post by **Evil Natured Robot** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:49 pm

Because we all know that the metric system is part of a communist plot to befuddle American school children, leaving their weakened minds more succeptible to indoctrination by infiltrators in the educational sytem who are also busy getting them to drink flouridated water. That's why!

And dammit, I won't stand idle in the face of this Commie plot to contaminate and control our precious fluids!

That being said, .45 versus .44 makes no difference to the game. All I care about is that the pointy things come out the right end of the gun.

Killa-Killa · Post by **Killa-Killa** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 6:19 am

Screw it. Wasen't there a .45 shell in fo2? also, I agree with the 10 to 9 change, but they should add .50, 5.56 and .308 rounds.
NOTE: This post is in no way whatsoever related to FO:T calibres.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 7:00 am

Yeah, there was a .45 round in FO2, but I believe it was only available in New Reno and it wasn't all that useful.

As far as your other calibers go, 5.56 was basically already in the game in the form of .223 and I'd rather see 30-06 than .308 because I think it fits better. I suppose they could just call it ".30 Caliber" and not specify.

Ripper · Post by **Ripper** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 2:05 pm

ammo does not make to much diff to me, its the guns that matter.

thefiendishpuppy · Post by **thefiendishpuppy** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 8:19 pm

I see no fault with them changing the ammo calibres.
I see no fault with them keeping the current ammo calibres.
I see no fault with using generically-named guns.
I see no fault with using guns with made up names.
I see no fault with using guns with names specifically designed to be similar to existing ones.
I see no fault with using existing, real life guns and theoretical ones; the only minor problem is copyrighting, but what gun company would realistically object?

I think that personally they should keep the current calibres and gun library, and possibly tone them down slightly in favour of the new ones, if they feel that is necessary. Personally in Fallout 3 I want to see the Pancor Jackhammer in full 3d glory, and the good old 10mm SMGs, and even the Solar Scorcher. Merely because it'd be nice.

Thing is though, it could be JE pissing in the sink, as OnTheBounce wrote. So long as he doesn't cock it up completely, I don't really mind either way. Like I say, it would be nice if the old guns were there, and modelled/rendered/sprited (whichever way FO3 goes), merely because I'm like that. I liked the Cafe of Broken Dreams in FO2, and the references to The Vault Dweller, merely because I had *been* him. It was good, because it reminded me of good times. I didn't think bitterly that they were good and these bad...

...and I hope Fallout 3 does not make me think that either.

Juice Monkey · Post by **Juice Monkey** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:37 am

I personaly hope they use realguns in FO3, I'd love to be able to equip my guys with stuff like .303 Bren Gun, G-36C, SL-8, Styer 15mm Anti-Material Rifle, 7.62mm GPMG, maybe even a 40mm GMG (Grenade Machinegun). I would also like to see them use the .308 cartridge, that way you have realism in the fact that an M-21 can't be loaded with a 7.62x39mm cartridge, but instead the 7.62x51mm (.308). Also, BRING ON THE .357!!! These things I would greatly enjoy from the new FO3 game.

PS: The FO Bible stats that the world was all fine and "normal" up untile 2051. So all the current munitions technology would be more then valide.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 12:43 am

Juice Monkey wrote:PS: The FO Bible stats that the world was all fine and "normal" up untile 2051. So all the current munitions technology would be more then valide.

Hmm... That doesn't sound right at all. Which bible is that?

Killa-Killa · Post by **Killa-Killa** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:25 am

Doyle wrote:Yeah, there was a .45 round in FO2, but I believe it was only available in New Reno and it wasn't all that useful.
As far as your other calibers go, 5.56 was basically already in the game in the form of .223 and I'd rather see 30-06 than .308 because I think it fits better. I suppose they could just call it ".30 Caliber" and not specify.

The .45 was also available in San Fran, and (I think) in NCR. Why not have just .223( no 5.56) and just .308 (or .3006, whichever).
However I'd like to see more realistic guns, in ammounts relative to what number really exist (ie. you would find hundreds of times the number of AK-47/74 than Augs, and way more M-16/4s than Scorpios or MP-5s, Due to the fact that a helluva lot exist.) Obviously they would not be exactly relative, due to game balance. Also , Why were there no Colt .45s in FO1/2, and yet there were so many deagles?

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:08 am

Juice Monkey, I'm afraid you're misinformed.

The world was more or less normal up until 2051, but that was the Fallout world. You see, Fallout is an alternate reality rather than a possible future. The Fallout world's timeline diverged from ours shortly after World War Two. The world entered the fifties just like we did and assumed all those culture elements. However, the sixties as we know them never came along. The world kept the same values, mentality and outlook of the 1950s and applied that through out the next century. Starting around 1950, the world is quite different. That's why it doesn't really make sense for the Fallout world to include real-world weapons: it's not really the real world.

That doensn't mean that Fallout can't use weapons that are like real world weapons, though. The assault rifle from Fallout is actually called the AK-112, so it's effectively an AK-47 except it's not. This allows the designers to make the weapon they want that fits the game without having real-world gun experts breathing down their necks about inaccuracies in the implementation of a given weapon.

Strap · Post by **Strap** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:39 am

i think that if there are real guns, with real ammo, all the gun fans will moan and bitch about how their [insert gun name here] doesn't shoot as good as it does in real life, and it shouldn't do so little damage, and on and on...

Spazmo wrote:That doensn't mean that Fallout can't use weapons that are like real world weapons, though. The assault rifle from Fallout is actually called the AK-112, so it's effectively an AK-47 except it's not. This allows the designers to make the weapon they want that fits the game without having real-world gun experts breathing down their necks about inaccuracies in the implementation of a given weapon.

exactly:
the made up guns were one of the best parts about fallout that was messed with in FO2. i like the AK-112 kind of guns, apposed to making real ones like the FNFAL. it should have been something else, just so that real world statistics wont be debated or upsetting to people when compared to the guns in the game. (it is a game after all)

Killa-Killa · Post by **Killa-Killa** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:53 am

Strapon2 wrote:i think that if there are real guns, with real ammo, all the gun fans will moan and bitch about how their [insert gun name here] doesn't shoot as good as it does in real life, and it shouldn't do so little damage, and on and on...

And those fans' messages get "Wasterlanderized/Deleted", and those posters become cannon fodder for our ravaging comments. Whats wrong with that? Not only that, 99% would realize that it's a useless argument and that in (most) games, guns aren't completely accurate.

Duck and Cover

Caliber changes, what do you guys think?

What do you think about the caliber changes?

Caliber changes, what do you guys think?