JE Sawyer on MAD GUN SKILLZ

[Franz Schubert]

This is another reason why I don't care much for it.. The idea that NPCs are mules to carry your excess shit around. I could understand if you were PAYING an NPC that he'd do your muling, since that's what you're paying him to do. However, when you load up an NPC with stuff, there should be a factor in there where maybe, just maybe, he's thinking he's getting a cut of the loot.

I don't know about you, but my NPC's and my PC are like brothers. They get each other's back, and if someone is weighed down with extra loot, they all lend a hand to help carry it.

After all, if you want NPCs to seem like real people, how long do you think they'd stick with you if they never got anything in return? Think of playing tabletop role-playing games. How often is it that the party picks up all the loot in an area, then when it comes time to sell the loot, everyone freely gives the loot to one player who sells it and keeps the damned money?

Never get anything in return? So when you blow up the Enclave with sulik in your party, is he still wearing the leather and weilding his sledge hammer? My Sulik is a fucking walking arsenal by the time I finish. He's got Advanced Power Armor, he's got a .223 pistol, combat knives, throwing knives, brass knuckles, spiked knuckles, Super-Sledge, and sometimes he even weilds a Lil' Jesus.

So just because I'm the one that sells the shit, he still gets his share of the loot. Think of the implementation issues. Do you want the NPC's to sell their own equipment and buy new shit at stores? Do you want them to race the PC to loot dead bodies? This is not a table-top RPG (though at times it gets damn close), so there are limitations.

I know you don't keep Sulik at a leather jacket and sledge hammer, so if you're really hardcore about the role-playing element, think of it like the NPC's are letting you sell their stuff and buy stuff for them, because they know you can haggle with the best of them

Why would there be less ammo if people like the BOS are continually making the stuff? If places like Vault City are making it? Hell, if people like the PLAYER CHARACTER can make it, which is one thing JE Sawyer is suggesting in those labs of his? I really don't think those labs are just there, waiting for the player to make stuff, do you?

I don't understand the question, sorry :oops: What labs are you talking about :

[thefiendishpuppy]

I think The Saint is referring to the ability in FO3 to make items if you have the respective skills and items, and are in the correct location. I remember reading it in my travels on Duck And Cover, as that's the only place I've seen reference to FO3 (I've not been a very active Fallout Fan )

The thing Saint is saying, is that if the Brotherhood of Steel, who made ammo and traded ammo in Fallout 1 (and assumedly 2) are still making it, with the possibility of other high-tech factions (For example, Vault City with their Vault-Tek technology, GECK, and all the rest of it), and now Mr JE Sawyer is saying that normal Mr Joe Average, and Miss Hero With Guns can walk into a lab and cook themself up a stim or two, and make ammo whilst they are at it...

When you have all these production methods still in place, why is there going to be more of a shortage than there was in Fallout 2?

Saint is right, it does make no sense. The reason for the new shortage *appears to be* purely for the setting. Mr JE Sawyer and pals decided that "Hmm, a post-apocalyptic role playing game shouldn't have ammo in that abundance!"

They are possibly right. Looking back on my Fallout days, it did seem odd that although it was post-apocalyptic, there was still ammo and guns galore. The guns I can understand; although they would break, jam, or become useless, they can be fixed and reconditioned using parts from other broken, jammed or useless guns.

But the ammo? Ammo, by it's nature, is an expendable thing. Even when you consider a relatively primitive weapon such as a bow and quiver of arrows, where you can go and pick the arrows up from where you shot them, you cannot expect all of your arrows back in one piece. If you are hunting, for instance, the prey could get away. When it dies and falls, it may snap tha arrows, rendering them useless.

Now turn the bow into a gun. Turn the arrows into shiny metal slugs that you shoot at people. Yes, you can retrieve the ammo, you can retrieve the shells, you can get new gun powder and remake the bullets.

But what are the chances of that?

So, the Brotherhood of Steel, for Fallout 1, was essentially their copout for why ammo, after the war and the destruction, hadn't run out - or become extremely rare and valuable - in the eighty years between the bombs dropping and Vault 13's Overseer giving you a hearty slap on the back and saying "Well, my boy, could you hop over to Vault 15 and get us one of their spare water chips? I'm sure they won't mind. Here's a gun, in case you encounter anything out there. Well, good luck!"

The Vaults having weapons and ammo, I can understand. But, they would be likely to ration them carefully, and trading them out - when they are non-renewable - would be a Vault Survivor No No.

The Brotherhood of Steel were, as I said, essentially a copout, so that a fighting player would not get "stuck" mid game, because there was no ammo and he had no melee weapons, or the skill to use them. It's Fallout's equivalent of the classic D&D's "Oh, it was magic." "Oh, a wizard did it." "They called upon a miracle from the gods." "I dunno, it just is, okay?" (I'm not trying to bash D&D. It's a comparison.)

The thing that Mr JE Sawyer and Company have realised - or have decided would be interesting - is that unless the Brotherhood had a few more levels purely for arms manufacture, and a couple more bases dotted around with similar ones - that there is no, absolutely no possible way there could have been that much normal ammo.

Consider, too, the Fusion Cells, and Energy Ammo. (Not the real names, I know. I'm going to replay Fallout 1 and 2 because the memories are fading fast...) Would there be any realistic way that these could be produced? Do we even know if they can be produced with post-apocalyptic tech?

Possibly the Brotherhood *MAY* have stumbled upon it in the eighty years they had before Fallout 1 started. Possibly, due to the Power Armour - and related tech in keeping it in tip-top shape - they managed to recreate it from schematics; the Brotherhood seems to have geniuses capable of this, if the canonical material is to be believed.

However, what Mr JE Sawyer and Company have decided, it seems, is that they were too generous in the previous two games. Too much ammo. A pack rat, a hoarder-fighter, as I was in these games, could easily amass ammo enough to survive near-indefinately. An example, from Fallout 2... from the 10mm SMGs in the early game, I saved my 10mm bullets. Even when they became obsolete, I managed to slow my hoarding enough that I threw them in the boot of my car. Discovering a certain gun that used 10mm ammo in San Francisco (I forget the exact name, but I hope that a forum member could probably contribute it for me) this ammo again became useful. Whenever I had an encounter with leather-jacketed people near San Fran? Hmm. Whip out the gun, load up the 10mm ammo, and I could kill them. Easily. With the ammo salvaged from their 10mm SMGs, it was sustainable. I had a more or less free method of killing these people without impacting my usual weapon supplies. (Which, at that point in the game, was the 2mm Gauss Rifle. Goddamn, that ruled!)

This kind of situation is possibly what Mr JE Sawyer and company are trying to fix. (How many times have I said that phrase, "Mr JE Sawyer and company"?)

What Saint_Proverbius is disputing is that there is canonical evidence in the previous games of ammo being cheap; there is canonical reason for it to be there, with the Brotherhood of Steel and other possible producers of arms and ammo; with the ability to produce it yourself...

Why is it going to be scarce?

It seems to be merely a gameplay matter that they are trying to fix. Something that didn't make sense that they rationalised at the time. In a damn good way, but it was still a rationalisation for an irrational thing.

There is a debate in here somewhere, and it is unlikely that it is solvable. Mr JE Sawyer and company have the canon; theirs is the right to change it as they see fit.

Whether the fans like it or not.

Personally I agree with Saint_Proverbius. The ammo in the previous games was enough, up until the endgame approached, and most players were doing the sidequests, at which point it began to get a little silly.

A little. Not that much.

A shortage of ammo makes sense, it is canonical if they say it is, and with the amount of people using weapons, it seems that unless the Brotherhood of Steel have a large amount of factories, that such a shortage would make a lot of sense. It makes for a good storytellers angle, and a possibly more realistic world.

I don't think it would be fun, though.

EDIT: Had to post this as I had dinner, here's what I wrote after.

His other point on the NPC buddies; he's right, really. How do you explain to Myron that this is the thirtieth Jet canister you've got him lugging around today? That he's not to take them anymore? How do you explain to Marcus that yes, you found yet another minigun, and could he please carry it until they get to San Fran, where he can probably get a Vindicator Minigun + ammo by now? Don't you think that Marcus will realise who that is going to, after you shafted him for his other minigun because he accidentally pegged - and riddled - Vic back in New Reno? Don't you think he'd get just a little pissed off?

Admittedly, it seems like it would be a right arse to program that kind of thing. Computers are built to be absolutes, and that's the way the programming works; doing things like having Myron hoard the Jet, have his own money, and want to go to New Reno to sell his Jet, would make sense to his personality. Or at least, the way I saw his personality. (Small minded packrat who thinks he's god's gift to druggies, who wants to make a quick buck - and a permanent money supply - out of addicted hopefuls who happen to get addicted by their friends. By a pushy dealer. By anyone. Programming that sort of thing in takes a dedicated view of it, right from the start; there needs to be a whole system of checks and balances, a mass load of arbitrary values for anything and everything they see, get handed, and have to hand back. How much of their money they are willing to lend to The Chosen One. I admit, Sulik might hand over his jacket and hammer for someone who bought him out of slavery, but what happens when he's tagging along, you with his armour on using guns, having sold his hammer to make money for ammo? When he has no armour, no weapon, and has to go up to melee-equipped and gun-equipped foes to slug them in the face?

You don't think that we and I would be just a teeny tiny bit pissed off?

You don't think that Marcus would refuse to hand over his guns and ammo, that Myron might want to keep the occasional Jet for his own use, and Cassidy the occasional Stimpak?

You don't think that realistic people would be nice?

That's the thing with it; you rationalise it as being a band of brothers. You meet them, help them, and then say "Join me". They fall into your arms and trust you instantly; they clasp your hand and shake it; they pledge their undying loyalty to you as they grab their automatic weapon from behind the desk and write a quick goodbye note to the deputy sheriff.

Excuse me for saying this, but isn't that just too idealistic for a post-apocalyptic world, where growing crops is damn difficult on the scorched earth, where radiation poisoning isn't a rare problem for those who work in the industry but a case of "Well, I did go a little close to that abandoned ruin earlier, guess I'd better grab the RadAway, take them and camp the loos for the night"? (God, that made me laugh, the thought of taking an anti-rad drug that gave you the shits. "Ah, no more poisoning! Er... damn... hey, Jacob! Where's the Little Brother's Room?")

Getting back to the point, it seems far too idealistic in the kind of world where only the strong survive. (It's a cliché, but it works here.) Personally, I think that realistic NPCs such as this would be nice. I mean, NWN did it, in their main campaign; you helped them do what they wanted, you showed a deep interest for their characters, and they gave you something that meant something to them.

However, as I said; in the way that Saint_Proverbius describes it, it would be pretty difficult. You can get around this by using NWN's idea of not being able to change their equipment, but then you run into the problem of that in a game like the Fallouts, where upgrading your equipment is vital to surviving in the later game, that your comrades would not survive.

Could you live with the fact that one of your Band of Brothers had just died? Because if it was done this way - as a copout, I admit it works well, but in the Fallouts it just would not work!

Or is this Band of Brothers idea just a rationalisation for your use - and abuse - of your companions?

I don't mean the above statement as a personal attack on you; please don't take it that way. But with real life people, and real life problems, the kind of thing that me and the Saint have described would, I believe with little doubt, happen.

I can see you getting chummy with First Citizen Lynette, to get Cassidy to the Doc inside Vault City.

But would you take a Road Trip for Sulik to go home? Drive all that way to the east coast to drop him off, say goodbye and thanks for all the fish, give back your stuff and live happy with his tribe? Facing hardships on the way?

A true band of brothers would. As a player of a game? You might say to him, "Later. Let's deal with my problems first. With my mission."

How long would he wait before leaving? Taking his Mk1 Brotherhood Power Armour, his Super Sledge, and god knows how much other weapons and ammo you've muled on him, with him?

Myron. Myron might stay. He's someone with no real mission, no real purpose. Would he, as a real life person, carry your shit? Three hundred rounds of ammo, for a gun he doesn't have? Two suits of armour you've just peeled off some corpses, bulletholes and all, just so you can sell them?

He'd tell you where you could stick it.

Vic. Vic is another one who might stay. Then again, he's run caravans before; he's a trader, and would prefer that sedate life again, I feel. You may have saved him from slavery, but just how many near death experiences could that man - a repairman at heart - take before he realised that all that was going on was his life was in danger?

Your band of brothers is down another member. Vic's too afraid to stay with you among these gunfights with people in dark, imposing armour.

Would you drive Vic, in your car, back to Klamath?

Or would you leave him, stranded outside NCR, no armour, no weapons, just to hike it himself?

In real life, in a band of brothers, where you had helped each other, learned from each other, and grown together; you'd drive him home.

In a game? I'm not sure you'd go to that length for a character who you were only going to lose at the end of it.

The Saint Proverbius makes another good point, and strikes a blow for reality. But games aren't always about reality. It's about heroes, villains, and a struggle to survive, unless you're playing Harvest Moon or something.

In both cases, you have arguments for both sides; the ammo one I can't see being resolved, as both are realistic and both could be canon. This one again isn't easily resolved, as it's realism against expediency. It's easier for programmers to program blind followers, who will act as slaves, than it is to make real people with real motives and real missions. Fake ones, blind followers, can dupe you into rationalising them. Band of Brothers, you say? A good rationalisation, and one that sprung from the fact that otherwise, Sulik and company wouldn't stand for it. It could well be a good piece of apocrypha, and is probably used by most people. But it isn't canon.

Canon is the fact that the programmers didn't make them like real people, with real motives, real missions, real habits, and real hoarding tendencies. Your apocryphal explanation is one thing they rely on; it's the suspension of disbelief that allows jumping to such conclusions, which makes it so the gameworld can appear real.

You're doing their work for them. Most people do. It's better that way, for most people.

The Saint had a good point. I've merely expounded my thoughts; I've beaten his bible for him. You had another. I chose his side, because I felt that he was right.

Please note! The above post is not intended to be nasty to anyone or anything. I'm not trying to slag anyone off, be nasty, or attack anyone; this is a whole load of brahmin shit straight from my brain. If I offended anyone, I didn't mean to.

[Spazmo]

Okay, so your character can make ammunition given proper equipment, skills and materials. I don't see how this means the entire wasteland can do the same.

First off, your character is an exceptional person. Even a first level character is head and shoulders above most of the dregs who inhabit the wasteland. The high science skill--or whichever skill is deemed appropriate by JE and Co.--that will be necessary to make ammunition is something that is extremely rare among those in the wasteland, generally limited to, as you said, the Brotherhood, the gun runners, Vault City and the like.

Second, you need proper equipment. Now I myself don't actually know how the process works (see what I mean about not everyone knowing how to make ammo?) but I'm guessing you'd need some moderately specialised equipment that is not readily availible or manufacturable, especially not within the bombed-out setting.

Third, you need the materials to make bullets: casings, gunpower and any other bits and pieces that may be necessary. These, too are very rare in the wasteland, and Joe Traveller, struggling to survive in a world where raiders and mutations abound is probably more interested in buying food or finished ammunition than a freakin' weapons lab.

I don't really think the ability to make your own ammunition will break the setting at all. That is, unless the labs are too common. "Hey, there, wanderer. Welcome to Porcupine Springs, population sixty eight. We're a small and very poor town, but we get by. There's a hotel a bit to the east, general store is right next door, the mayor is down the street and our weapons labs and chemical production facility is on the other side of town. You have a real good day, now, y'hear?"

[thefiendishpuppy]

I totally see what you mean. It was just the point that I think The Saint was trying to make, that I picked up on. Ammo should probably be rare, but it isn't, and there are canonical reasons for that. What The Saint and I are saying is that shouldn't now change, just on a whim that they think there is too much ammo going around.

I know that most people probably wouldn't be able to do so. Maybe one in a hundred, or a thousand, would take the time to learn. A text book, a little experimentation, and the right equipment, and it's more than possible. I've never looked into it myself - it's illegal here in the UK, and I imagine it would be in most places - but I'm sure that the equipment would be worth the investment for a gunsmith in the Fallout setting. Though it may not be easy to come by, someone like that could easily get the supplies from caravans, perhaps? Traders? I imagine such a thing could be pretty lucrative.

I imagine it'd be roughly portable, too. A spirit burner, or other source of heat, powder, and the necessary tools and materials, and who says you can't pull up the car in a cave, spread out a tarp, and make it yourself?

I totally agree that the ability to make your own ammo won't break the setting. It will probably help it; just another Science skill, that a character might take, and make the occasional set of bullets if he can't find them in the shops in this here town. Casings wouldn't be so hard, because they're just some shaped metal. A bit of bending, a bit of cutting, a bit of soldering, and you might have a workable bullet case. Such fiddling may fuck up your gun if a bullet is dodgy, or too thick, or not sealed right; but that will be something we have to deal with.

What I'm saying - what the Saint is saying - is they shouldn't CHANGE the entire setting on a whim. A designer of FO3 shouldn't say, "Oh, I played the previous games a bunch o' times, and ammo was too easy to find. It made the game too easy. It didn't make sense, either. Let's change it." The canonical reasons for *having* that much ammo haven't changed - or at least we assume they haven't. It seems, from the releases, that it is a designer's whim, with the team's agreement, because it made the game easy. That isn't what me and the Saint are saying; it's that they seem to be contradicting canonical evidence to the contrary.

Now, reasons for this might be entirely different; the Brotherhood of Steel, large as it is, is a US-based thing, set up by a single person, in conjunction with his soldier buddies, to try and preserve as much tech of the old world as they could, to try and survive.

What if FO3 is set in Great Britain? Russia? Dare I say it, France?

Then, the canonical reasons for the ammo goes totally out the window. No Brotherhood of Steel to make it, or to trade the technology for it. It's possible that the UK may have had a similar technology advance to the USA before the bombs dropped, and the technology for making the guns and ammo might well be there. There might be a scottish Clan of Iron, or something similar, which would preserve such technology. Perhaps they don't have the people to run it at the efficiency that the Brotherhood of Steel do. Perhaps the technology isn't there, or isn't as advanced.

There is no canonical evidence either way to definitively state that this is the case, or isn't the case. This is my musing, and my ideas, which may or may not be true. It makes sense to me, at least.

And I totally see what you mean about Porcupine Springs. Making such labs too common may well break the suspension of belief. "Hey, laddie, welcome to mah farm. That's the outhouse, there's the barn, there's the weapons factory, and over there is the hospital. Dun't you worry none, though, there's only me, mah son, and the cows around fer miles! Oh, the hotel is just over the bridge. Have a good night, y'hear?"

But, like I say, portable kits aren't entirely out of the question, and the problems therein could easily be implemented. A critical failure? You're using home-grown ammo? Oh, dear, the barrel's split! That gun's useless!

This would keep the setting realistic. I only hope that the above sort of thing only happens about once a few ingame months, and only if guns are poorly kept and ammo badly manufactured... otherwise it could be less fun than it looks.

Edit: Added some to one of my points.

[Smiley]

That's because you're a gamer, who's looking for fun acting like the person you're playing, and not a munchkin checking stats for each weapon like some people do...

Sulik: "Man! Did ya see we and I blast dat sucker!"

The Chosen one: "But Sulik! You shouldn't use *that* machinegun. It's damage-rating is much lower than this one! Don't you see the numbers on the side of the guns?"

*SMG - Dmg 5 - 30*
*H&K - Dmg 10 - 50*

ffs... damn munchkin's all around...

[Doyle]

Casings wouldn't be so hard, because they're just some shaped metal. A bit of bending, a bit of cutting, a bit of soldering, and you might have a workable bullet case. Such fiddling may fuck up your gun if a bullet is dodgy, or too thick, or not sealed right; but that will be something we have to deal with.

Actually the single most common form of making rounds would simply be to reload old brass casings. Most centerfire casings that are loaded to normal pressures would be good for several reloadings. In fact, quite a few people currently do this in the US. It fire less common rounds, it can save a lot of money. I've heard of people saving as much as 50% on rounds as common as .45. Most people buy their own bullets when they do that, but you could cast them yourself if you wanted.

This is so common and relatively easy, in fact, that I'd expect Vaults to come with some kind of equipment and reference materials for this. It would just be such a common sense thing to include.

[OnTheBounce]

Actually the single most common form of making rounds would simply be to reload old brass casings. Most centerfire casings that are loaded to normal pressures would be good for several reloadings. In fact, quite a few people currently do this in the US. It fire less common rounds, it can save a lot of money. I've heard of people saving as much as 50% on rounds as common as .45. Most people buy their own bullets when they do that, but you could cast them yourself if you wanted.

The problem w/reloading isn't the bullets, nor the casings. The main problems are going to be the powder, and the primers.

The powder can be gotten around easier than the primer, since you can always "fake the funk" with black powder, using only salt peter, charcoal and sulfer. This wouldn't be that hard to make since the recipe is bound to have survived. It would also offer the advantage of not being able to destroy a modern weapon, although I'm not sure whether the autoloaders would function very well with it thanks both to the copious amounts of fouling it produces, as well as the relatively weak pressures. For instance, take .45 Colt. This was originally a black powder round. If you load your Ruger Blackhawk up with refurbished ammo that you've jam-packed full of black powder you can fire them all day, through the night and into next week all w/o having to worry about blowing your gun up.

However, the primer is the bitch, since you not only need to make the compound that goes in it (which explodes when pressure is applied), you need to provide a suitable container for it. Used primers are discarded when reloading, and there is -- to my knowledge -- no way of refurbishing them. You simply go to the store and buy more of the appropriate type. This, of course, is an option not available in a post apocalyptic environment.

I'm not sure I have any viable ideas on how to handle this idea, but I will say that for the sake of playability reality might have to take a back seat.

OTB

[thefiendishpuppy]

Vindication feels good, Doyle.

I did mention collecting the casings after, but no-one seemed to pick up on it...

Plus, you can get mods for guns that are 'brass-catchers' if I remember my Hot Rods and Gun Bunnies rulebook correctly.

Take casing, add bullet, add powder and seal again. Where's the problem in that?

Of course, Doyle, some things so easy are taken for granted, so this option may not appear in the game. I would expect a Vault-Tek version of Encarta to include this information *somewhere*, but regarding the status of the Vaults (apart from Zero) as social experiments, I can't imagine that all Vaults would have access to such information. I do remember reading in the bible that one of the Vaults had an unlocked armoury, so perhaps this one would have such information freely accessible... *checks the bible*

Whilst I'm waiting for it to load, I want to say Thanks to Doyle, for the fact that he repeated one thing I think I mentioned earlier. I can't find the exact quote, but I did mention picking up the casings and stuff afterward.

Here we are, I found the vault reference in the Bible.

Vault 34: The armory was overstocked with weapons and ammo and not provided with a lock.

Perhaps this one would have the public able to access firearms information, including repair, production and maintenance, as well as production procedures for bullets?

[OnTheBounce]

Take casing, add bullet, add powder and seal again. Where's the problem in that?

See above. You're forgetting a vital component of a cartridge: the primer.

OTB

[Doyle]

Yeah, I thought about that, OTB, but I figured like you that it was something that for the sake of the game would have to be ignored. Heh.

[Slave_Master]

That's because you're a gamer, who's looking for fun acting like the person you're playing, and not a munchkin checking stats for each weapon like some people do...

Sulik: "Man! Did ya see we and I blast dat sucker!"

The Chosen one: "But Sulik! You shouldn't use *that* machinegun. It's damage-rating is much lower than this one! Don't you see the numbers on the side of the guns?"

*SMG - Dmg 5 - 30*
*H&K - Dmg 10 - 50*

ffs... damn munchkin's all around...

I understand and agree with your point, but if my character has high gun skills and is very knowledgeable about guns, I think it is reasonable for him to say "Sulik, don't use that piece of shit machine gun. This H&K is a much better weapon"

[thefiendishpuppy]

What he was saying was there are people who play the game to have fun by developing the plot and enjoying the game as it was made (Gamers) and those who play the game to get better equipment (munchkin, or powergamer).

Sulik was being a Gamer: he enjoyed using the gun, and shooting someone.

Player was being a Munchkin: He wasn't interested in the death, shooting, or actually playing the game; his point was he could do more damage with something else. That's all Munchkinboy was interested in.

That's not to say that you are a Munchkin and not playing the game properly if you look forward to new equipment and equip it straight away if the numbers look better, but if that's the only reason you're playing the game, you're a munchkin.

[Saint_Proverbius]

The same thing with Cassidy, who prefers shotguns and will always use a shotgun over a non-shotgun. He'll use the best shotgun he's got though. So, you'd think he'd complain or even flat out refuse to give up one shotgun if you're not giving him a better one.

But, because of the way things are in FO2, you're free to strip him of his favorite weapon and give him something he doesn't like nearly as much.

[Raymondo]

I just hope when F3 comes out my char's not walking about with fucking crossbows and swords, I'm fucking sick of the medievil RPG's of today its the same shit over and over again.

[Megatron]

yea they should have gunz

[thefiendishpuppy]

I doubt they'll do much on this matter beyond having the standard "unremovable" items; for example, Boo, in Baldurs Gate series, from Minsc's first inventory slot. I imagine that if there is nothing else in their inventory, they will go with their starting loadout; if they have something they prefer, they'll use that instead.

Personally, I hope they do. And I can imagine that although Cassidy likes a good shotgun, that he'd be oohing and aahing over the Gauss Gun and going "D'ya mind if I have a go of that?" at which point I'd probably be reduced to using the next best thing that I have.

On a side note, after playing Fallout1 and being an ordinary joe (or recognised as such by the general NPC populace, at least), playing Fallout2 and having everyone class me as "oh, just another tribal" and having real stereotypical primitive tribal replies to everything pissed me off. Here's to hoping the protagonist of F3 is, or can be classed as, an ordinary joe.

Racism in that sense pissed me off, and lessened the immersion, because it wasn't "me" or even anywhere near, it was a stereotypical primitive tribal answer. And I had no other option. Which annoyed me...

[SuperH]

I personally wouldn't mind crossbows at all, being a big fan of The Road Warrior. Crossbows fit well into a post-apoc setting, although maybe not quite as well into Fallout because of the abundance of guns. Nobody would have to bother making a crossbow. I suppose in real life though, they'd be pretty common, seeing as once the bullets are gone they aren't gonna be coming back, and even if they were, crossbows are a lot easier to create and maintain than guns. Maybe not as deadly, but still pretty deadly.

[thefiendishpuppy]

((Before you read this post, please keep in mind that I've completed an A-level Physics course. This is a qualification which is mildly better than the one most people get nowadays, but contains nothing very useful or any knowledge about real world situations such as this. The knowledge displayed below is hearsay from one of the best physics students I know. Whether he was right, I have no idea; whether I remember it right is another thing entirely.))

I suppose it might be easier than maintaining a gun - I don't know, I haven't tried either - but there's still the matter of making the bolts for the crossbow - wood body metal tip, metal all the way through, whatever you like - and maintaining the thing. If the bowstring snaps? Restringing a crossbow is, I imagine, a pretty difficult thing to do. Possibly less difficult than fixing a similar problem on a gun, replacing the hammer or trigger mechanism perhaps - but the problem with guns against crossbows is velocity.

Your average bullet travels at around 150-300 metres a second. Some go ridiculously fast, about 400 metres a second, but above about 300 you get less damage because it doesn't tumble. Of course, you get more penetrative power from a faster velocity, it having more energy to overcome resistive force, and all.

How fast does the average crossbow's "muzzle velocity" relate? I imagine that even the best crossbow is only going to be able to reach above 50 metres per second in the hands of an expert, with expert tuning and maintenance.

Plus, you have to have the know-how to build and maintain one of these things before you can consider making one. They are - I have heard - pretty complex.

I can imagine they might consider such a thing, but beyond leather armour, these things are going to be as useless as Myron against Frank Horrigan. (God, I love that image.) Of course, it could have some nice criticals. Anyone up for pinning someone's heart to a nearby wall? Physically near-impossible, mind, unless you've had a buddy carve a hole in his back first - but it would be a very morbid, and very shockingly fun critical kill, wouldn't it?

But, like I say, I can't imagine these things being very useful after about two to three hours play.

Anyone wanna vindicate the above? Cite a site to prove me wrong? This is an interesting little kettle we've opened up, and I wouldn't mind learning a bit more!

[atoga]

We're talking about game balance, not realism. If you want a good game, listen to the game devs and people who know about maintaining balance and interest and buy what comes out of that; if you want gun realism, you can go out onto the street and shoot some people.

[thefiendishpuppy]

That being said, Atoga, you're quite right.

Are we looking too deeply here?