Lionheart Demo. Anybody try it?

[Hemogolobulous]

Ok, so it wasn't made by the core Fallout team. I'm not good with names but there has to be someone at Black Isle that picked up on how to make a good game during the course of their career. Maybe just because it's a BIS game doesn't mean that it MUST be a good game, but it obviously shares a lot with Planescape, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Fallout. Given the history the developer has, it's a pretty safe bet that there will be good dialogue in there, whether it's written by the same guys or not. BG, Torment, and IWD were all real time combat, and it worked just fine. People are tearing apart the demo based on things that a demo isn't put out there to demonstrate. They handed out an appetizer, and already people are bitching about the next four courses because the appetizer wasn't filling enough. Most developers have a reputation for producing games of a certain quality (THQ=crap Troika=sweet), and I'm a fan of developers as much as I am of games. Not that there isn't exceptions, but Lionheart isn't one of them(the exceptions, that is). Black Isle has never let me down before, and as far as this demo is concerned, their track record is still clean. Whether they made it real time or turn based doesn't affect my decision to get this game, both styles work great; and either way a big group of "true fans" is gonna have gripes about it. The desingers developed the game how they thought best, and it looks to me they they produced another stellar game. Idon't care whether BIS produced Fallout, or even whether they produced Lionheart; if they're just slapping their name on these games, at least they're slapping their name on the right games. To me, Black Isle means quality RPG.

[Spazmo]

Here's something you angrily persist in not knowing: It's not a BIS game. Lionheart was made by Reflexive, who have no prior experience in RPG design. None. At all.

As for BG, IWD and PS:T, most will tell you that the first two are crap RPGs anyways and the latter succeeded in spite of the combat.

[Agent.47]

It might be pretty cool if the lead designers of the fallout series made a turn based rpg and not made it like a frigging diablo rip off.

[Killzig]

Lionheart a diablo ripoff !? What gave you that impression, surely not the randomly generated items springing forth from chests. Couldn't have been the entirely too brown color palette they used for the graphics. And I bet that whole enemies rushing at you en masse for you to left click on wasn't it either.

So again, why do you call this a diablo clone?

[Lynxer]

Is it even technically possibly to defeat an ogre in melee combat? It seems to dodge all my attacks and sends me to the afterlife in a fraction of a second.

[Killzig]

Unfortunately I had to kite him to defeat him. Taking advantage of the crappy AI? You bet your ass. It's not my fault the demo was so hastily put together that I had to do that to defeat a monster. There's a spot in that line of trees right next to his house you can cross through. For some reason he doesn't cross it, once you get to the other side you can happily cast spells at him all the day long.

[Insane-Lark]

My Apologies, Ashmodai's post should have been included in this thread & has been reposted below. All of the major flamage has been Wastelanded.

Folks are welcome to make their points & express their opinions on the Lionheart demo, but should do so with an air of debate & leave off on the heated namecalling. Any further abuse of this thread will see it locked.

Hemo-whatever, I don't think you're getting the point.
It's not just a palette used to create atmosphere, it's a palette very similiar to another game's palette and thus creates a similiar atmosphere. It's not about chests with items, it's about chests with randomized items (Diablo I style), which does not make much sense with a story based game (Ferchristssake, even Baldur's Gate didn't do that). This way you end up with generic stuff. Capiché?

Whatever.
ChrisA's job was merely that of a guest designer. Note that IPLY even sent people to assist with Fallout Tactics (although at a very late stage of development), and that was more than just two or three folks. Now look at Fallout Tactics.

A crappy because unhandy HUD and a look-and-feel which strongly reminds me on Baldur's Gate 2 and Diablo are not exactly what I'd call indicators of a good game.
And yes, Demos are supported to show what the game is like. Fuck, I instantly bought Fallout after I played the demo for once.
However Fallout didn't have any special graphics for the demo, it didn't even really include a new location, but something like a modified copy of Junktown called Scrapheap. There were only two quests or so and the demo could be finished within less than an hour. Still it showed enough of the gameplay.
Many games (Dungeon Siege for example) just use the first hour or so of gameplay of the final game for their demo and then put a sign "You need to buy the full version to proceed" where they made the cut. Arcanum was a good example for that as well.

Demos have the same purpose as commercials - convincing potential customers by presenting the product.

[Saint_Proverbius]

How can any one think that the game isn't going to be full of sweet dialogue and quests, you know what this team is capable of!

Yeah, with such stellar games as Star Trek: Away Team and Zax - Alien Hunter, what's there to worry about when it comes to Lionheart being good?

If not then you're in the wrong forum... The demo was to get people into the combat and look of the game I think, not so much the story line and deeper tactical elements.

Ummm... Yeah, sure. Even Reflexive's tactical games weren't that deep.

Lionheart doesn't share much with Diablo other than the perspective, and the fantasy setting.

And the item system.. And the combat.. And the interface..

The demo makes it seem pretty action heavy, but there is bound to be other ways to go through the game.

With less text than IWD2, I'm sure there's bound to be a lot of ways to do things other than combat!

I also don't see how anyone could have a problem with the interface if they've ever played a computer role-playing game before, it's as simple as it's ever been. Left-click attack, right-click spell, 123456789 items, C is for character, etc... what's the problem?

How about the fact it's a real time, action combat game and the interface takes up a third of the screenspace?

Ok, so it wasn't made by the core Fallout team.

Or any of them.

I'm not good with names but there has to be someone at Black Isle that picked up on how to make a good game during the course of their career.

As evidenced by what? IWD2? IWD? Remember that since Planescape: Torment, BIS has released two dungeon crawlers and had to scrap two CRPGs.

Given the history the developer has, it's a pretty safe bet that there will be good dialogue in there, whether it's written by the same guys or not

We should also worry about the Roman Empire taking over Europe, just look at what they've done in the past!

People are tearing apart the demo based on things that a demo isn't put out there to demonstrate.

You mean like the lackluster combat?

Most developers have a reputation for producing games of a certain quality (THQ=crap Troika=sweet), and I'm a fan of developers as much as I am of games.

Then it might be time for you to visit those two links I've posted above. That's what Reflexive, the makers of Lionheart, have done in the past.

Black Isle has never let me down before, and as far as this demo is concerned, their track record is still clean.

Welcome to Lowered Expectations.

To me, Black Isle means quality RPG.

You're on the wrong forum.

Any further abuse of this thread will see it locked.

I disagree.

[Sol Invictus]

To me, Black Isle these days comes to spell "quality garbage". It's better than most garbage, but it's not as good as a good game.

Fallout Enforcer, however, is changing that for the worse.

[Spazmo]

Fallout Enforcer, however, is not a BIS game. Remember that the guys and gals of BIS weren't even aware of FOBOS before it was announced, so don't blame them for it.

[Sol Invictus]

Bullshit. Puuk was making hints about it for a long time.

[Saint_Proverbius]

I'd be willing to bet they knew, Spazmo.