Forum Droppings for 08.05

[Killzig]

<strong>[ -> N/A]</strong>

Sawyer's been a busy bee today! First he <a href="http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#519589" target=_blank>responds</a> to his tinkerings with SPECIAL.

<blockquote>

Like the split of Speech into two new skills, Deception and Persuasion that had extra uses outside of dialogue? That didn't seem to go over very well. The addition of more maneuvers for the Unarmed skill including area-affecting combos? That wasn't received very well, either. Adding two-weapon combat for small guns? Boy, that really didn't go over well. Ghouls and super mutants as playable races?


"Adding stuff" or "taking stuff away" isn't the issue. Sometimes adding things into a game causes problems. Sometimes taking things away makes the game better. A few months ago, someone on the team suggested splitting up the science-related skills into six total skills: Medic, Science, Computer Ops, Electronics, Outdoorsman, and Mechanics. Yes, that would have added more science skills into the game. But since the previous two Fallout RPGs didn't do much of anything with the science skills provided, it's probably better to come up with a list of skills that each designer could use adequately through their areas. Mechanics, Medic, Outdoorsman, Science. Simple, straightforward, and broad enough that the designers can make good use of them throughout their areas.


Someone who tags Mechanics, Outdoorsman, and Sneak shouldn't only be able to win the game, they should be able to win the game and feel that their choice to tag Mechanics, Outdoorsman, and Sneak really helped them succeed in their own way.


But, in general, just dumping a list of new stuff to implement without examining what's already there is kind of silly. There's certainly a lot of stuff about SPECIAL that doesn't need to be changed at all. But I think there's a lot of stuff that needs to at least be reviewed. If, at the end of the day, it isn't changed, that's fine. But if it needs to be, it should be.</blockquote>

Dual wielding Deagles != Improvement. Next up, in this <a href="http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#519386" target=_blank>thread</a> Sawyer answers some questions...

<blockquote>

<em>Q: Why did you put multiple difficulty levels in the game?</em>


Because it is a slider that can be changed at any time, not something that is or is not selected at character creation, unable to be changed for the rest of that game. If the player chooses "hard" difficulty and gets pounded, he or she can tone it down. If the player picks poorly balanced traits or tags skills that are underused, he or she may not realize the problem until he or she is halfway through the game. And at that point, the player is stuck.

</blockquote>

And finally...

<blockquote>

Yes, I have. I have stated that I believe poor traits should be improved and not thrown out. ALSO, Gifted, which is too powerful, should be toned down to be in line with the improved traits.


These are really simple goals. It might not be easy to reach these goal, or to agree that they have been reached, but it's really easy to identify them:


<li>The penalty of a trait should be equal to the benefit.

<li>Traits should be equal to each other in overall value.


That's it. Really simple. If a trait sucks, make it better. If a trait is too powerful, tone it down. When all is said and done, a player should be able to pick the traits or he or she wants based on the type of character they want to play instead of rolling their eyes at 14 crummy traits and taking the 2 that are clearly superior.</blockquote>

And a few perk ideas:

<blockquote>

Eye on the Prize

Prerequisites: PE 7, Steal 125

Ranks: 1

Benefit: You can case a joint or a mark from across the room. Whenever you examine a container (even locked) or character, you can see its inventory.


In Your Face!

Prerequisites: Melee 75 or Unarmed 75

Ranks: 1

Benefit: Opponents can't make called shots with thrown weapons or firearms when you are within 1 hex and are only holding melee weapons or are unarmed. They also suffer a -10% penalty to hit with those weapons against all targets.


Ayyyyyy!

Prerequisites: LK 5, Lockpick 125

Ranks: 1

Benefit: If you fail to pick a lock, you can punch or kick the object and add your Luck x2 to the pass/fail check. However, this automatically opens the object if the check is successful, and may be noisy enough to alert nearby enemies.


Suicide King

Prerequisites: Persuasion 150 and CH 8

Ranks: 1

Benefit: When standing within your area of influence, CNPC allies always ignore how wounded they are when following orders. When the going gets tough, this makes them far more likely to follow the combat parameters you have set for them.</blockquote>


To keep up with the JE Sawyer daily simply click <a href="http://forums.interplay.com/search.php? ... .E.+Sawyer" target=_blank>here</a>.

[POOPERSCOOPER]

He said something about Hex in one of the perks, does that mean there going to do hex based movement like in the originals?

[Raymondo]

I guess so. Fallout wouldn't be fallout without it.

[Zetura Dracos]

Thank god for that. You know in a way he's right, the SPECIAL system does need to be cleaned up a bit and I really wouldnt mind seeing a few groups streamlined into just one or two skills instead of three or four (please note that combat skills are the exception here) as after a while trying to distribute into so many skills became annoying and tedious. With some of the changes JE is proposing it would be much easier to create a well rounded character that can deal with the situation in many ways instead of just one because of how you chose to level up when you first started the game.

Difficulty levels have always been around so theres no need to really talk about it.

I agree that some of the traits need to be changed and tweaked until you dont feel like a moron because you chose something earlier and its useless now.

I also agree that there need to be new perks and that they should have a downside as well as an upside, if only to add a feeling of real consequense to your playing style.

This is, I have to say, on a whole a much better batch of idea than what Sawyer usually puts out and if he keeps having said good ideas the game will hopefully be a good title that's enjoyable and can try to wash away the blight of FOBOS.

By the way, is there any way that we can charge Chucky with an act of cultural sedition for creating FOBOS? Just curious.

[spyder07]

I like Ayyyy trait. But then again, couldn't you just shoot the lock off?

And holy shit, do they have to make it so that EVERY trait/tag combo is a winable situation? Look in real life, some skills are pretty useless. For instance, I travel by car everywhere, do I need outdoorsman? No. Like real life some combos of skills aren't winable.

[Spazmo]

Well, Spyder, the perk is clearly designed for unarmed characters. Not everyone uses a gun.

[DarkUnderlord]

A few months ago, someone on the team suggested splitting up the science-related skills into six total skills: Medic, Science, Computer Ops, Electronics, Outdoorsman, and Mechanics. Yes, that would have added more science skills into the game. But since the previous two Fallout RPGs didn't do much of anything with the science skills provided, it's probably better to come up with a list of skills that each designer could use adequately through their areas. Mechanics, Medic, Outdoorsman, Science. Simple, straightforward, and broad enough that the designers can make good use of them throughout their areas.

Errr... Killy, are you sure you're quoting JE here? I mean, he's finally making sense! What happened?

He said something about Hex in one of the perks, does that mean there going to do hex based movement like in the originals?

I like the hex and I hate the hex. I like it because it makes things clearly defined. I *know* how many "hexes" away an enemy is, because I can measure 'em. So deciding what to do with my action points is very easy. I know how far away 4 hexes is, it'll take me 4 ap's to walk there, leaving me with enough to fire my weapon close range with an aimed shot. It's things like that that make turn-based combat a lot better.

On the other hand, I hate them because of the zig-zag. Admittedly, it's not something too concerning, but it does look dated. If they can fix that, but still use a hex system, it'd be nice. Either that or go for an octagonal shape.

[Hammer]

I think players who use firearms and are combat related should not be limited to prizes in terms of lock picking. If you're a firearm user you should have the ability to breech a door granted you have a shotgun. The downside is you waste a shell and alert all nearby to your presence.

My character is combat intensive, I always used Unarmed, Small guns, and big guns. Many times getting in to a locked door or some shit like that was blocked due to not having sufficient lock picking skill, getting the FOB comes to mind. Sure on doors I could use explosives and I normally did, but when it came to lockers I had to run out and kill shit just to get a high enough lock picking skill to proceed in the game. Given the option I would have proffered taking my sidearm (Revolver with Speedloader, always carried one regardless of my level) and blasting the lock.

Or, maybe if you're a brutish character you can break doors down like in the EXILE games.

[Forty-six & Two]

I think players who use firearms and are combat related should not be limited to prizes in terms of lock picking. If you're a firearm user you should have the ability to breech a door granted you have a shotgun. The downside is you waste a shell and alert all nearby to your presence.

My character is combat intensive, I always used Unarmed, Small guns, and big guns. Many times getting in to a locked door or some shit like that was blocked due to not having sufficient lock picking skill, getting the FOB comes to mind. Sure on doors I could use explosives and I normally did, but when it came to lockers I had to run out and kill shit just to get a high enough lock picking skill to proceed in the game. Given the option I would have proffered taking my sidearm (Revolver with Speedloader, always carried one regardless of my level) and blasting the lock.

Or, maybe if you're a brutish character you can break doors down like in the EXILE games.

Yea, ive always hated that they just ignored the fact that a gun can shoot open a lock. Many games do that. Of course shooting or bashing all locks open would make the lockpicking skill useless, but im sure theres ways to balance it. The waste of ammo and the noise are good ones, but maybe something like the risc of destroying an item inside or related to bashing, hurting yourself and fail to open the lock.

[Jeff]

Well you can kick open the locked doors if you're strong enough, at least the weaker doors (wooden for one), that's good nuff for me. Lockpick skill is still useful because it didn't work on heavier doors and lockers and shit

[atoga]

I like the perk ideas. And what's wrong with splitting up speech? I don't recall any resistance to that one.

But it looks like JE may have had 'a moment of clarity'.

[swordinstone]

In Your Face!
Prerequisites: Melee 75 or Unarmed 75
Ranks: 1
Benefit: Opponents can't make called shots with thrown weapons or firearms when you are within 1 hex and are only holding melee weapons or are unarmed. They also suffer a -10% penalty to hit with those weapons against all targets.

This seems like the highlight of the bunch. It makes sense and should be usefull. However, I think it would be a good idea to have another perk like this that gives an even bigger penalty to the "to hit" for higher level melee fighters.

I think the perk awareness should tell you what hand the weapon they are holding is in too, so you can make the appropriate called shot without having to guess. Maybe it will be a more "what you see is true" system, since you shouldnt really need a perk to see this anyway.

[Evil Natured Robot]

It seems that even when JE makes sense, Killzig's still going to take whatever he says with a grain of salt, get in hits where he can, and continue to diminish any input on FO3 this community might have.

That being said, this is the first time that I've totally agreed with what JE has come up with. The perk ideas are decent, as are his points about changing the system. We're all afraid that the newest version of SPECIAL is going to be alien, or just a worthless shell of what it once was. It seems like while they've had some ideas that shouldn't see the light of day, they're actually thinking things through.

[OnTheBounce]

[The In Your Face Perk] seems like the highlight of the bunch. It makes sense and should be usefull. However, I think it would be a good idea to have another perk like this that gives an even bigger penalty to the "to hit" for higher level melee fighters.

I agree that this seems to be a gem of a perk, but I think that there are several ways that they could look to improve it:

• Have the "-10%" not be a simple modifier to be added to the base chance to hit, rather it should be a penalty that is applied to an enemy's Unarmed/Melee skill, effectively multiplying their skill by 0.9. So someone w/100 Unarmed has 10% subtracted from their skill, someone w/80 has 8, but someone who has 150 would have 15 points subtracted.
• Have the number to be subtracted be a function of the using character's Unarmed skill if they don't have a weapon in either slot, or their Melee Weapons skill in all other cases. (So if your Unarmed character happened to be holding a rifle he'd have to use his MW skill for purposes of this perk.) The penalty could then be 10% of the skill in question. So a character w/a 150 Melee Weapons skill would induce a -15% penalty on his/her foes while "in their face" with a toilet plunger.
• Allow multiple ranks for the perk.

I like the proscription on targeted shots, and -- properly implemented -- things like this could put some teeth back in unarmed characters, w/o having to resort to a John Woo-style Kung-Fu-O-Rama.

OTB

[S4ur0n27]

John Woo is a master

[OnTheBounce]

John Woo is a master

Be that as it may.

Tolkien was a master at what he did, but that doesn't mean that we need Orcs and Ring Wraiths in FO3. Does it?

OTB

[Killzig]

It seems that even when JE makes sense, Killzig's still going to take whatever he says with a grain of salt, get in hits where he can, and continue to diminish any input on FO3 this community might have.

That being said, this is the first time that I've totally agreed with what JE has come up with. The perk ideas are decent, as are his points about changing the system. We're all afraid that the newest version of SPECIAL is going to be alien, or just a worthless shell of what it once was. It seems like while they've had some ideas that shouldn't see the light of day, they're actually thinking things through.

Is there something I posted in this thread that makes you say that? As far as I can tell the original post was pretty even handed.

[swordinstone]

you dont know? You've been labeled "Inter-bane" and "The enemy of JE"

[Killzig]

Oh!! I see, yea that would make sense. I AM TEH CANCER OF TEH FALLOUT COMMUNITY, I WILL SHOOT MYSELF NOW. K THX BYE .

[Ghetto Goose]

Maybe we'd have more input on Fallout 3 if JE weren't so afraid to come here. And maybe he wouldn't be afraid to come here if you were a little nicer, killz.