Is Chris Avellone Flipping His Lid?

Jimmyjay86 · Post by **Jimmyjay86** » Thu May 23, 2002 5:45 am

If anyone has visited Black Isle over the past few days, you might notice a lot of posting by Chris. It's pretty nasty ranting to the usual troublemakers - Saint P. , x0mbie, Killian

. But me wonders if Chris is finally being pushed off the edge into insanity. So what do you think, is Chris going to go on a shooting rampage?

Killzig · Post by **Killzig** » Thu May 23, 2002 5:54 am

Vote NO ...

Slider · Post by **Slider** » Thu May 23, 2002 6:01 am

Vote: NO

He really needs to get off that sarcastic edge he has been on as of late its a bit annoying now.

Tank · Post by **Tank** » Thu May 23, 2002 6:52 am

I think all he needs is a loooong vacation...

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Thu May 23, 2002 8:42 am

Hey, I was being civil with the boy. He's the one that turned nasty.

Don't believe it? Read it for yourself:

http://feedback.blackisle.com/forums/sh ... genumber=3

Jimmyjay86 · Post by **Jimmyjay86** » Thu May 23, 2002 8:49 am

Yikes, I can't read those threads anymore - all that confused logic gets me dizzy....

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Thu May 23, 2002 9:10 am

Vote: No...

Ugh...7 pages of posts on top of almost 8 hours of mapping. My head's spinning and it's not because of JJ86's Av...

I have to say that it was very big of you to apologize, Killian, even if there was - *ahem* - a bit of a sarcastic edge to your post. Still, I think that MCA's reaction was out of line (i.e. "you're right, Prov"). Then again, you guys do ride these guys like two-bit whores on payday, so you shouldn't be surprised if they're defensive and/or even outright fucking hostile. Still Killian, you did the right thing, and I salute you for that.

For the record, my position on Lionheart is this: Since SPECIAL has its roots in GURPS I don't see why BIS can't adapt it to other genres. If the game sucks, I won't buy it. However, none of us here owns the intellectual property rights to SPECIAL and so it's really not our place to say what Virgin/IPLY/BIS can/cannot do with the system. I don't want to see FO go to the console dogs, but it's not the end of the world if it does.

OTB

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Thu May 23, 2002 9:25 am

Haven't been able to log on the official board for ages. Man, it sure look like Chris' gone nuts!

Killzig · Post by **Killzig** » Thu May 23, 2002 9:32 am

OnTheBounce wrote:Vote: No...

Ugh...7 pages of posts on top of almost 8 hours of mapping. My head's spinning and it's not because of JJ86's Av...

:]

I have to say that it was very big of you to apologize, Killian, even if there was - *ahem* - a bit of a sarcastic edge to your post. Still, I think that MCA's reaction was out of line (i.e. "you're right, Prov").

You're right, a little sarcastic but you guys all know me by now you think I could give a straight apology without giving a little jab at Lionheart? Heh.

Then again, you guys do ride these guys like two-bit whores on payday, so you shouldn't be surprised if they're defensive and/or even outright fucking hostile.

Fair enough.

Still Killian, you did the right thing, and I salute you for that.

Thanks

For the record, my position on Lionheart is this: Since SPECIAL has its roots in GURPS I don't see why BIS can't adapt it to other genres. If the game sucks, I won't buy it. However, none of us here owns the intellectual property rights to SPECIAL and so it's really not our place to say what Virgin/IPLY/BIS can/cannot do with the system. I don't want to see FO go to the console dogs, but it's not the end of the world if it does.
OTB

It just looks like Torn with historical references in place of pop references. Either way there's not really enough info to formulate an opinion on it. Suffice to say, RT Sux0rz j00!
heh

Oh, and in the end of that thread I did just give up a straight "I'm sorry." So yea, I caved. Make fun of me.

Tank · Post by **Tank** » Thu May 23, 2002 9:44 am

No, you were great... Too bad the curtain fell on the show before I finished reading the whole darn thing...

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Thu May 23, 2002 10:18 am

OnTheBounce wrote:Then again, you guys do ride these guys like two-bit whores on payday, so you shouldn't be surprised if they're defensive and/or even outright fucking hostile.

I don't know about that. If you'll remember correctly, Vault13.net brought Chris Avellone in to the limelight. How many of you knew his name before the Ask Avellone features, which later lead to the Fallout Bible?

Other background info: The Fallout Bible was Dan Wood's idea. He wanted a document that prevented the errors that were present in Fallout Tactics. He suggested it to Chris Taylor who turned the idea over to Chris Avellone. It's ironic that Chris Avellone was talking about putting Fallout Tactics info in the Fallout Bible given that background, isn't it?

Viktor · Post by **Viktor** » Thu May 23, 2002 7:35 pm

All I can say is that I'd hate to have to represent my company on a message board where I/my boss/my company was being questioned, critisied and blamed on everything the company did/didn't do/was rumoured to be doing etc. and have to 'play nice' with the public....

I can't think of another industry that allows/gives this sort of access to the general public.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » Thu May 23, 2002 8:07 pm

Actually, iÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´m getting confused, i donÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´t know if i think that BIS are liars or if they are telling the truth... hmm

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Thu May 23, 2002 10:14 pm

Kill-zig/ian wrote: It just looks like Torn with historical references in place of pop references. Either way there's not really enough info to formulate an opinion on it. Suffice to say, RT Sux0rz j00! heh

Historical references, all right! *hehe* Sorry, you know me and History. :oops:

You're right, there's not enough info to go on right now. Personally, I'm biased against Swords and Sorcery-type Fantasy, so I'm unlikely to trip over myself dl'ing a demo or running out to buy it.

What I'd really like to see a company do - that is, if they have to put out a High Fantasy game - is to come up with an original world, populated with original creatures. This type of game doesn't have a good track record, though, since most people are familiar w/Dwarves, Elves and Orcs they'll go w/what's familiar. Going back to the '80s - and hopping onto the tabletop - there was a game called Jorune that features just that: an original world, with original races. Iron Crown Enterprises' Middle Earth Role Playing system, which was a very complicated and realistic system buried it, and it wasn't all that popular itself. Of course the winner of that contest was AD&D, hands down, mainly because it had the same advantage of familiarity as well as being a hell of a lot easier to learn.

Oh well, it seems like we're doomed to this sort of thing. A bright spot in Lionheart is that it doesn't feature the traditional non-humans.

Saint_Proverbius wrote: I don't know about that. If you'll remember correctly, Vault13.net brought Chris Avellone in to the limelight. How many of you knew his name before the Ask Avellone features, which later lead to the Fallout Bible?

Well, I knew his name. Kinda hard not to know his name if you've spent any amount of time putzing around in New Reno.

I'm not saying that there hasn't been a decent level of cooperation between fans and designers of the FO universe. What I'm talking about is personal attacks. Things like some of the accusations that have been made on the BIS boards regarding FU's sister and her "relationship" with her brother. Things like images of MCA's face superimposed on a drag queen. All I'm saying is that w/these sorts of things being done, I can see why the designers might be a little testy at times. It's an observation, not an accusation.

I'm not exactly where you were going w/the bit about the FO Bible. Are you trying to use it to justify personal attacks?

OTB

Jimbo san · Post by **Jimbo san** » Thu May 23, 2002 10:14 pm

I second that.

Can anyone explain? I'm not too familiar with this.

Jimmyjay86 · Post by **Jimmyjay86** » Thu May 23, 2002 10:47 pm

Viktor mentioned

All I can say is that I'd hate to have to represent my company on a message board where I/my boss/my company was being questioned, critisied and blamed on everything the company did/didn't do/was rumoured to be doing etc. and have to 'play nice' with the public....

I can't think of another industry that allows/gives this sort of access to the general public.

I was wondering this myself. BIS does open themselves to suggestions more than any other company I know of. Does George Lucas have a message board that he reads for suggestions for his next Star Wars epic? Does GM have a public forum that they go to solicit public input on their next car design? How about your favorite music group?

To have Feargus and Avellone on hand to directly talk with is very rare. For "hardcore fans" to continuously berate them in these forums is unconscionable. Regardless of what you may think they are doing to "your" Fallout. Why should anyone expect them to follow all of your suggestions for the game?

Just my opinion.

Viktor · Post by **Viktor** » Thu May 23, 2002 10:51 pm

I imagine Firestone don't have a board with a "Ford Explorer owners tell us how many relatives are dead thanks to our tyres" forum....

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Fri May 24, 2002 12:07 am

OnTheBounce wrote:You're right, there's not enough info to go on right now. Personally, I'm biased against Swords and Sorcery-type Fantasy, so I'm unlikely to trip over myself dl'ing a demo or running out to buy it.

I'd like to see how it's done first. I'm not inclined to be totally against it until I know certain things about it. For example, how's they're shifting SPECIAL's focus from guns/melee/HtH/speech/thief to bows/melee/magic/speech/thief. After all, magic alone would be a fairly large addition to SPECIAL that would require a lot more than a little reworking. How that's done is the key.

What I'd really like to see a company do - that is, if they have to put out a High Fantasy game - is to come up with an original world, populated with original creatures.

That's one thing I liked about Geneforge. Though, it's basically Sci-Fantasy when you think about it. Basically, a bunch of mages who create creatures using magic to genetically synthesize them. Then problems crop up when they start altering their own genes.

This type of game doesn't have a good track record, though, since most people are familiar w/Dwarves, Elves and Orcs they'll go w/what's familiar.

That and it's easier to rip off the Tolkien train, who ripped off someone else, than to come up with something new. You don't have to spend a long time designing something if someone else has already done that for you.

Oh well, it seems like we're doomed to this sort of thing. A bright spot in Lionheart is that it doesn't feature the traditional non-humans.

That's one problem I've had with D&D and similar things. Dwarves are basically, swallow and focused humans. All the races are when you think about it. Even through the third edition, all the other races are just subhuman. They fit neatly in to one category in general, and you're punished from going outside that stereotype.

Well, I knew his name. Kinda hard not to know his name if you've spent any amount of time putzing around in New Reno.

Bet you're the exception that makes the rule.

I'm not saying that there hasn't been a decent level of cooperation between fans and designers of the FO universe. What I'm talking about is personal attacks. Things like some of the accusations that have been made on the BIS boards regarding FU's sister and her "relationship" with her brother.

That runs both ways.

Things like images of MCA's face superimposed on a drag queen.

Which was funny! Also, it occured long after Chris Avellone started attacking fans.

Similar things were done with MF people and Chris Taylor during Fallout Tactics. The difference is, those people have a sense of humor. Chris Taylor thought Killian's relax0chris.jpg was was very funny, and that was basically his head superimposed on a girl's body in a quasi-1950s advertisement.

I'm not exactly where you were going w/the bit about the FO Bible. Are you trying to use it to justify personal attacks?

Just something I find interesting and a little background on the subject.

jimmyjay86 wrote:I was wondering this myself. BIS does open themselves to suggestions more than any other company I know of.

Not really, BIS is pretty close lipped compared to a lot of companies, actually. Most developers visit their forums. BioWare does, Dynamix did with Tribes and Starsiege, Bullfrog used to talk with the Dungeon Keeper 2 community frequently, id software does, and so on.

Micro Forte used to be great about giving fans access to them during Fallout Tactic's production. We even used to play demo matches with them.

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Fri May 24, 2002 2:42 am

Saint_Proverbius wrote:I'd like to see how [Lionheart is] done first. I'm not inclined to be totally against it until I know certain things about it. For example, how's they're shifting SPECIAL's focus from guns/melee/HtH/speech/thief to bows/melee/magic/speech/thief. After all, magic alone would be a fairly large addition to SPECIAL that would require a lot more than a little reworking. How that's done is the key.

I'm not against Lionheart at all. I'm simply burnt out on S&S Fantasy. I hit that point back in '90, not too long after AD&D 2nd Ed. came out. Basically, BIS can do what it wants, but I'm not inclined to support this little venture w/my gaming dollar.

The integration of magic into SPECIAL is an interesting concept, though. Will it simply replace Science? Will certain %-age levels give you access to new spell types? Can you focus what type of magic your character studies?

One thing I thought of last night is that PE has always been a stat that I crank up. Hell, I won't play w/less than 7, and my usual is 8. If the focus is on non-ranged weapons this stat is of far less value, while ST will be inflated. Of course, the game takes place in 1588, and gunpowder was in widespread use by then, unless this divergence has caused it's use/diffussion to be hampered...

Saint_Proverbius wrote:That and it's easier to rip off the Tolkien train, who ripped off someone else, than to come up with something new. You don't have to spend a long time designing something if someone else has already done that for you.

I can't say that there are too many original creatures in the AD&D multiverse. Even Greyhawk's Cooshee is a creature from Irish folklore. (There it's spelled "cu sidhe", which - curiously enough - is pronounced "coo-shee".)

Saint_Proverbius wrote:That [personal attacks] runs both ways.

Yes, that was my point in the original thread. We're not fighting over precious, life-giving resources here. There's really nothing at stake except for a little bit of cyber-face and the direction that a gaming franchise takes. There comes a time when someone has to say, "Enough now!" As a designer, I'd hate to come to work every day with a bunch of vengeful fans looking to verbally sodomize me. As a fan, I don't want to be ignored (or to have the designers listening to the "wrong" fans). I GM'd on the table top for years, and I came to learn that while there is a time for the referee to put his/her foot down and follow his/her vision and there's a time to listen to what the players want. The trick is to know when to do which.

Saint_Proberbius wrote:...Killian's relax0chris.jpg was was very funny...

Um...still have that laying around anywhere? I never got a gander at that one.

OTB

Killzig · Post by **Killzig** » Fri May 24, 2002 2:51 am