So tell me, is college pointless?

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:54 pm

Just as abit of incentive, but when you join the armed forced ((or get an ROTC scholarship)) your college is payed for basically. Even if you're stationed in the boonies, they'll still provide for your education. For instance, in the navy, they actually hire teachers to come onship to teach. Or take my dad for instance, he got his masters degree 2 years ago and he's 49. Since he was away from any local colleges, he took the courses online and the Army hired teachers to come onbase to give classes.

Personally, I'm in college right now looking for a BA in Criminal Justice and a minor in Sociology and Japanese. I'm looking to joining the FBI or NSA. So I've got my goals planned out. You have the world ahead of you and the skies basically the limit. Steve said it best.

Evog wrote: you will get back as much as you put in.

Basically, you'll be as succesful as you are driven.

I do suggest the army however, since you can still go to college while in the army, and basically for free. Plus as Steve mentioned, you can opt to learn stuff such as electronics, communications, and other things. Just ugh, be wary of what OTB said. Moniter the stuff closely when you apply. I wouldn't trust a recruiter for the life of me, because their like an insurance salesman.

the guardian · Post by **the guardian** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:45 pm

Wolfman Walt wrote: I do suggest the army however, since you can still go to college while in the army.

Right, welll, I don't know how things work in your country, but here, it's not that simple... You can study while in the army, but only after you finished your mendatory years(3), and even then it won't be free, just cheaper(I think)

trythebill · Post by **trythebill** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:01 pm

why join the army? join the marines and be fucking nuts. seriously, my uncle signed up a week after high school, did his time in a heavy weapons platoon in korea, got out, went to law school and now runs the largest law firm in his county. I'm only going to college because what i want to learn and eventually what i'll take as a job requires me to go. you could always become a military armorer and then take a job in the private sector when you got out. i hear they are in heavy demand and always have been.

ExtremeDrinker · Post by **ExtremeDrinker** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:31 pm

Most of my friends graduated HS and went into the military...The three that joined the Marines were discharged for various reasons...One guy got ran over by a semi while he was fixing a flat at the side of an interstate...Guess the Marines didn't want a cripple...Another got kicked out for going to a titty bar that happened to have a few alleged KKK members there..The other threw someone down some stairs and was discharged after being released from jail...Heh..

The four friends that joined the Navy are stationed all over the damned place...One of the guys does computer stuff...Got a job after his 4 years writing games for some unknown company...

One friend joined the Army...Haven't seen him in 2 years.

Another friend joined the Air Force..He's stationed in England right now...He was in Turkey for the past three years....He drinks a lot.

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:37 pm

the guardian wrote: Right, welll, I don't know how things work in your country, but here, it's not that simple... You can study while in the army, but only after you finished your mendatory years(3), and even then it won't be free, just cheaper(I think)

College should be almost completely free. This is due to the Montgomery G.I. bill. I think you only pay for your books. I'll ask my dad next time I talk to him.

axelgreese · Post by **axelgreese** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:26 pm

OnTheBounce wrote:I think that 90+% of people in college today don't belong there. What they really need is a good technical/vocational school so they don't have to worry about all of those things they will have to take courses on in college and can concentrate on learning their profession.

Depends on what field though. In the IT industry an Assocaites degree isn't worth much, just check the job listings... "evelenty billion years of experiance"... "grand masters degree of all knowing (+5/+5)".... etc. etc. . But then again, you can always just get the Assoc. and then a bunch of Industry certs, so it's really up to you. Just bear in mind what the course will teach you and how well you think you'll be taught. (I'd still be at the tech college if I had any confindance in the instruction... well also I'd rather have a BA then an Assoc. degree)

And of course, I think the IT industry is gonna be in some for some real shit in five years anyhow, but that's another story.

OTB wrote:If you're not looking into getting exposed to things like the Humanities and other things not directly related to your job, forget college.

That's true, but I will point out that, depending on the course, you might have to get some Gen. Ed. courses at a college to get your Assoc. (For example at my local tech. college I would have to get 17..ish Gen. Ed. credits at my local university to get an Assoc. in Computer Information Systems, this is also true for those in the Net. Tech. course there)

OTB wrote:If you're going to go military, make sure you enlist in a combat arms Military Occupational Specialty (MOS), but not artillery since as a white boy you will stand out like a sore thumb waiting to be hammered. The benefits to this are that you will receive both the Army College Fund as well as the GI Bill. This means that you can go to school and not have to work. (Assuming that you don't eat steak, lobster and caviar every night.) Your military experience will most likely not translate into marketable job skills, but you will get to do things other people only dream about while they jerk off to Counter Strike, and that experience will last you a lifetime.

The reason I, myself, wouldnt' even consider the military is that, if I don't know what I want to be doing in four years (or three or two or maybe even one) why would I sign something giving four years of my life over to somebody else?

Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD · Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:27 pm

If anyone here goes military and actually sees combat you better be prepared if you get sick and complain they ignore you and stick you in a home like the gulf war vets.

And honestly, multiple people i know including relatives went to school and did nothing with it. half of them arent even in their chosen fields. i mean, when you take majors in history and psychiatry you should expect that you will be doing some useless job not remotely related to the class you majored in.

Alphawulf · Post by **Alphawulf** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:04 am

the guardian wrote:Right, welll, I don't know how things work in your country, but here, it's not that simple... You can study while in the army, but only after you finished your mendatory years(3), and even then it won't be free, just cheaper(I think)

Yah, I think Israel makes most if not all of its Male high-school grads go into the military to protect Israel from everyone who hates them (i.e. everyone around them). Israel is what it is today because of the U.S.

God bless America.

As far as the games industry. You need a working demo of a game if you hope to get funding and a publisher. If your good/lucky at it a college education isn't needed, look at John Carmack and Romero. But when you need a job, college will be a good thing when it comes down to what you look like on paper.

-=Felix=- · Post by **-=Felix=-** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:17 am

Look in to the National Guard.

I know up around me, the Guard will pay your entire college tuition if you go to a state run institution. All you'd have to pay is room & board.

Free college with paycheck. Not bad. And its the "One weekend a month, 2 weeks a year" bull.

I'm not saying thats the way it'll be down in texas though, its just up in Connecticut they're rather hurting for more guardsmen.

Neon Dingo · Post by **Neon Dingo** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:45 am

Alright, I don't really have time to post a big huge post.

All of you are giving very good advice and I appreciate the help, I really do.

It's making me seriously reexamine going to the University of North Texas right off the bat.

I've been studying 3D Studio Max tutorials for hours. I have the talent and the will to become good at modelling.

I do know how the game industry works, I've been looking into it for years. I didn't really mean to say I want to design games, as there are usually no entry positions for game designers. You have to work your way up.

I have an internship at Focus2, which is the company that designed the Return to Castle Wolfenstein cover and advertising campaign. I get to do the graphics design bullshit for a few years and learn some good stuff.

I am also considering testing games to break into the industry. I know a guy who got a job testing and now he is currently the lead programmer.

I've already mastered Photoshop so 3D Studio Max is the next natural evolution.

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:15 am

Wolfman Walt wrote:College should be almost completely free. This is due to the Montgomery G.I. bill. I think you only pay for your books. I'll ask my dad next time I talk to him.

Make sure your Dad isn't covered under the Vietnam Era version. It's much different than what's handed out today. Basically, the way it works is you get accepted at an accredited school, register, fill out the applicable form, then checks start magically appearing in your mail every month. (Yes, those nifty gov't checks, just like your tax refund). Ever semester you have to fill out forms again and the VA keeps an eye on your report card, but other than that the money is yours to do w/as you see fit.

axelgreese wrote:...I think the IT industry is gonna be in some for some real shit in five years anyhow, but that's another story.

The problem w/anything IT-related right now is that it's the hot field. Any time anything becomes the hot field you have people trying stampede their way into it like a herd of rabid lemings. Then comes the cliff and down they go...

This has happened over and over again when everyone tries to jump on a bandwagon. Too many people w/the same certifications means it becomes an employer's market and that's where the worker suffers. So I'd recommend anyone considering MIS, or something of that nature should think it over really good. Unless they're willing to sit down and become one of the best in the field -- or at least head and shoulders above the competition -- you're looking to have a degree that isn't even worth the paper it's printed on.

Max-Violence: Glad to oblige you w/some humor.

Evog: I disagree about being self-educated. I basically held the same idea as you before I went to college, but then I had my nose rubbed in the glaring holes in my education. Remember that Barnes & Noble and/or Borders are profit-driven in what they stock their shelves with. There's lots and lots of things that you simply cannot find on their shelves, nor the shelves of the local library -- for any of you who are thinking of Good Will Hunting right about now.

Cheers,

OTB

iohkus · Post by **iohkus** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:16 am

kubrick pwned.

"YOU CAN'T FIGHT IN THE WAR ROOM!"

u r liek cool person neon dingo, u should go to teh arts maybe liek teh kubrick. u know? yea.

T-900 · Post by **T-900** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:40 am

At the delightfully painful age of 15.. I'm planning on figuring out some web design above 'Geocities Pagebuilder!' level... and move from that into something game design-ish...

If they make me work somewhere with people less sadly PC-obsessed that I am... There will be a new word to describe the current meaning of 'postal'. Vegetable? Price-check? "0MG, TAHT D00D HAS GNOE TOTALY QUARTER-POUND0R LOLOL."

Relax in minimum cash for a few years and figure out some valuable game design stuff. Yarr.

EvoG · Post by **EvoG** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:00 am

OnTheBounce wrote:Evog: I disagree about being self-educated. I basically held the same idea as you before I went to college, but then I had my nose rubbed in the glaring holes in my education. Remember that Barnes & Noble and/or Borders are profit-driven in what they stock their shelves with. There's lots and lots of things that you simply cannot find on their shelves, nor the shelves of the local library -- for any of you who are thinking of Good Will Hunting right about now.

Well my best example is me, and while maybe my path in life has been more forgiving, I also learned from my mother, who despite going to college, continued to learn on her own all the way up to her passing. Every single thing that I know I taught myself, and I'm certainly not seeing any reason to go to college at this point in my life, as nothing is hindering me, and I'm on the verge of starting another studio and develop my own games. You CAN learn on your own. To say otherwise isn't reasonable...mainly, because colleges don't have secret information/books/knowledge that can't be gleaned from anywhere BUT college. Sure if you wish to become a doctor, lawyer, physicist, rocket scientist, engineer, you will need college...but for the most part, outside of those instances, its not imperative.

It seems Neon is clearly interested in games...and, as per my last post, you do not need college. Either way, like someone said earlier, decide what you want to do in life, figure out the path to that goal, and if it includes/requires college, go to college by all means....if it is clearly not mandatory, don't, cuz its not free, and you could very well be throwing away money like anything you purchase.

Cheers

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:33 am

EvoG wrote:Every single thing that I know I taught myself, and I'm certainly not seeing any reason to go to college at this point in my life, as nothing is hindering me, and I'm on the verge of starting another studio and develop my own games. You CAN learn on your own...

I'm not saying you can't learn on your own. My point is that it's much harder to avoid becoming overly specialized and dwelling only on things that interest you. There's tons of stuff I've been exposed to since I got to college that I unintentionally ignored while I was busy learning things I wanted to learn.

We're very likely talking about becoming two different types of people, though. If all you want to do is make money w/what you learn...well, making money isn't that hard, provided it's all you want to do in life.

EvoG wrote:...To say otherwise isn't reasonable...mainly, because colleges don't have secret information/books/knowledge that can't be gleaned from anywhere BUT college. Sure if you wish to become a doctor, lawyer, physicist, rocket scientist, engineer, you will need college...but for the most part, outside of those instances, its not imperative.

Actually there are tons and tons of journals, books and other publications that aren't available anywhere but a university, and not just for the fields that you mentioned. As a game designer you might be interested in what the DuPuy institute -- which deals in theoretical military simulations -- has put out, but good luck finding any of that stuff at B&N, and no, they can't special order it for you, either.

Like I said, we're probably talking about becoming two different types of people, though. I agree that people can get through life w/o having been to college. However, I caution that there are pitfalls to being self-educated. That's all.

OTB

Viktor · Post by **Viktor** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:35 pm

Slave_Master wrote:I'm in college right now majoring in sociology with a minor in criminal justice. I'll join the army when I have my bachelor's degree for a few years (thanks for the valuable advice by the way, OTB) and then be a cop. I'm going to learn Arabic so I could go back to college and get my master's in sociology to get a snazzy antiterrorism job with the FBI, or just go be an international terrorist if I get burned out of law enforcement.

Nice to see someone planning ahead and having a "backup career" lined up if the first one goes pear shaped!

Walks with the Snails · Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:00 pm

I'm kind of with OTB about college education vs. self-education. It's good to be exposed to more stuff. Some of my favorite classes were stuff I just took on a whim, and it let me into things I found I liked that I wouldn't have known otherwise. There's nothing stopping you from learning things on your own in college, too.

Just kind of my experience, I didn't know what I wanted to do at your age, and I just went to college just because. I'm glad I did, because if you're just going to screw around aimlessly, at least in college you're going to have something to show for it at the end. I'd recommend taking a subject you like, though, most of the time all that matters is that you have a degree, not the subject. For all the talk of you can do the same on your own, a degree opens doors, and it's also going to stand in the way of promotions later on if you don't have one.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:38 pm

I've learnt more self-taught than I have through primary and high school. If sesame street is a better teacher at english than most, school might need a little re-adjustment mebbe?

Evil Natured Robot · Post by **Evil Natured Robot** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 5:24 pm

Dingo,

Don't go to college unless you really want to learn. OTB (I think) already mentioned that 90+% of university students don't actually belong there, and I am in absolute agreement. It's not necessarily a question of intellect or academic ability, but will. Sadly people waste their own money and/or their parents' attending (or not attending) classes that they aren't interested in, drinking, and lazing about. While a degree looks nice and helps in getting a job, if you decide to go to university you ought to be ready to give it your all. Otherwise you've wasted a lot of money and opportunities.

No, analysing 18th century English poetry won't help you professionally unless you're planning on writing or being a literary academic. It just might help make you a more interesting person, however, and perhaps even a well-rounded one at that. Depending on where you go you might be able to shape your "required" courses to subjects that actually interest you. While university is certainly supposed to give you "real-world" skills and knowledge, it's also a chance to develop your own interests and see how they can help you in the future. I'm a double major in Philosophy and International Development Studies... while it sounds like fluff, finishing any decent philosophy program with good grades means you've got very good analytical and writing skills. Even if I decide to head towards development work, my philosophy degree definitely won't have been money down the drain. It also makes me the butt of jokes at family reunions (think "Ontological Arguments Concerning the Flipping of Burgers"), but what the hell. Like OTB said, you make it your mission to prove them wrong.

You might consider taking a year to work in game design if you can. I've got no clue whatsoever what entry-level positions in the industry require, but it might be a good idea to try for awhile, talk to people in the industry, and then determine if you want to spend the money, time and energy to go to university. Maybe see if that internship can turn into a full-time or part-time job for awhile.

If you do decide to go, make sure you're going because you want to, and try your best to study subjects in which you have a genuine interest.

EDIT: As a side note, a friend of mine had an opportunity to work with 3D Realms (I believe), beginning as a level designer after creating an educational program using the Duke Nukem 3D engine. Due to problems getting a visa to work in the States, he went to university instead. Last year he graduated with degrees in Computer Science and Cognitive Sciences (kind of a mix of neurology, psychology, and philosophy), and is incorporating both as a grad student studying artificial intelligence under Daniel Dennett, one of the world's best-known philosophers of the mind. It just serves as an example of how your interests can be put together with what you learn in college to do something you might not have considered.

InvisibleMonkey · Post by **InvisibleMonkey** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:44 pm

But you can't really expect to be really successful if you just graduate from college. Hey if you want to work at some crappy retail job, that;s fune, but I'd rather get a farily high paying job.