self-defense? lol

[Forty-six & Two]

Good discussion guys, but I think it's over. We are now officially going around in circles.

"DAC Gun Control Debate: Round 418" will take place same time next month k?

Yea, I think your right. I think we have voiced our opinion a good deal of times and we just dont agree apperently. No point in continuing.

[Wolfman Walt]

Hey man, im very happy most people just practice with it. But the people who are psycho, unstabile or just plain crazy shouldnt be able to go down to a store and buy a gun on the spot.

They can buy a knife or bow on the spot too. Anything can be used as a weapon to hurt someone, so your point of guns being made as weapons is somewhat invalid.

Fact is that a gun can hurt people and kill them.

Once again, since it generally takes multiple attempts to get someone to remember something, <b>anything</b> can hurt or kill someone, it's just being responsible enough use something properly.

Why do you want more of them in your

Yo-Yo's and Boomerangs were originally weapons with the capacity to hurt or kill. Yet, their purpose now is for entertainment and are <I>rarely</I> ever considered weapons with the purpose of killing. So why not guns if the primary use is for target practice?

If you really think having a gun is a good thing, I just dont believe you if you say you want a peacefull life and a peacefull country where its safe to walk around freely.

Actually, its easy to believe otherwise. If I went around waving my gun around asking for a fight, I'de be likely to agree. But as long as there are people who commit crime against other people, we need some deterance to counteract their ability. Call it "Maintaining the peace" if you will. With that thinking also, you should apply it to any weapon. Personally, I'de fear a knife more then a gun. Most violent crimes involving guns are close quarters and in close quarters its <I>real</I> easy to disarm a gun. A knife however, is active and has the potential to kill you at any time it touches you, making it a much harder weapon to counter.

Where's Hammer when you need him?

Most likely playing Planetside. He has to maintain his image of being the Ambassodor of love and peace somehow.

Franz, how long did it take you reach your 5th dan? Just out of curiousity.

Also, I believe in equal force for self defense. IE, if it takes me to punch you to get you to stop mugging me, I'll do that. If you're threatening my life, I might break afew of your bones, and if you're still a big danger ((Like you have a knife)) I'm not really too against deadly force. As for my l33t ninja skills? Ugh I'm a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, a green belt in Hapkido, a former Muay Thai amateur circuit fighter, and am currently trying out Judo. I don't really have any weapons to carry around per say, but I own a functional Katana, two wooden practice swords, a bo, and a set of tonfas.

[airsoft guy]

I note that whenever there is a debate about guns the anti-gun folk always seem to give up at some point with the weak excuse of "this isn't going anywhere, let's just stop." Last I checked that means you're all out of points, you don't got shit to stand on anymore.

Who's going to come after me if I waste a mugger? Is he part of some crime family? Is the Mafia going to come after me because I killed some dumb punk who wanted my money for a fix? Most likely, no, maybe his brother will come after me or a good freind, but I've still got Mr. 45 to keep me company, assuming the police weren't pricks or I lived in a state full of cock smokers who think it's for the best if they take my guns away after selling scum of the Earth the farm. Violence begats violence right up to the point where I've killed all the bad people, then it's Miller time.

[Forty-six & Two]

They can buy a knife or bow on the spot too. Anything can be used as a weapon to hurt someone, so your point of guns being made as weapons is somewhat invalid.

Yes, I agree, anything can be used as a weapon, but the gun in particular was made for killing, you know, it does kill alot of people. And its a easy mean of killing, just point and press the trigger (You dont need 400 practice hours to hit someone 5 meeters away) I have also said before that I think combat usefull knives should be banned as well. I didnt really think about bows, they are weapons but of course very few people choose them as a mean of killing so its not that important. Guns and knives are, thats why theyre should be less of them.

Yo-Yo's and Boomerangs were originally weapons with the capacity to hurt or kill. Yet, their purpose now is for entertainment and are <I>rarely</I> ever considered weapons with the purpose of killing. So why not guns if the primary use is for target practice?

Well are you able to kill 10+ people in less than minutes with a boomerang or a yo-yo? Hmm, well you have to be very very skilled. And if soomeone wanted a weapon and you had the pick, most would pick a gun. Thats why we should have less guns, because they are efficient at killing without any skill whatsoever. (Goes for knifes as well)

And yes, used properly a gun is not to any danger. But why take the chance of making it a danger? Why have it all. To protect yourself? Yes, I want to protect myself as well, but it still leads to the "gun-evolution" I mentioned before. Getting more and bigger guns wont solve anything.

Most likely playing Planetside.

Hey, its an entertaining game =).

[Forty-six & Two]

I note that whenever there is a debate about guns the anti-gun folk always seem to give up at some point with the weak excuse of "this isn't going anywhere, let's just stop." Last I checked that means you're all out of points, you don't got shit to stand on anymore.

Im far from "outa points" im just pretty sure we would never agree. Because we just dont have the same opinon on the subject.

Also, its already 1 AM here, and ive got school tomorrow. Means I have to go to bed and sleep soon you know.

Who's going to come after me if I waste a mugger? Is he part of some crime family? Is the Mafia going to come after me because I killed some dumb punk who wanted my money for a fix? Most likely, no, maybe his brother will come after me or a good freind, but I've still got Mr. 45 to keep me company, assuming the police weren't pricks or I lived in a state full of cock smokers who think it's for the best if they take my guns away after selling scum of the Earth the farm. Violence begats violence right up to the point where I've killed all the bad people, then it's Miller time.

Im not talking about you in particular. When I say "what about the next guy who comes after you" im talking about "what happens when everybody has a gun and everyone hates each other?"

Well personally im not gona participate in creating a world where everybody runs around with a personal almost instant death sentence in their pocket. And everyone of these people has their own god given right to shoot anyone who pises them off.

Does that make me stupid? Maybe. One day someone might pull a gun on me and gun me down, but I dont wana go living in fear of that moment fingering my own gun (if I jumped on the bandwagon and got one) everytime someone fingered theirs. And you cant tell the solution to gun related violence isnt getting rid of the guns in commen day life.

Making the world a better place starts with making your self a better person. And in this case were talking about getting rid of guns so that people dont go around capping each others asses. And if youre not talking about getting rid of guns, then youre just in this discussion because you want your god given right to cap anyone who pisses you off.

[Slave_Master]

Keep in mind, security guards should be able to get upgraded guns, just as an extra deterrant to crime.

Sorry, private security can only use the same defense that their employer would be allowed to use to defend himself or his property. That includes all laws about deadly force and whatnot, so if you wanted security guards with M16A4's, everyone would have to be allowed to carry M16A4's.

I wouldn't mind assault rifles for police officers, as they'd be a bit better than the shitty Glocks they carry. It'd be interesting to see if the homicide of cops goes down after they're all issued M14's or something.

[Wolfman Walt]

Im far from "outa points" im just pretty sure we would never agree. Because we just dont have the same opinon on the subject.

Also, its already 1 AM here, and ive got school tomorrow. Means I have to go to bed and sleep soon you know.

I've found that it's almost impossible to convince anyone of anything once they've made their mind up, being on a forum & the internet only compounds this problem to where it becomes almost impossible unless you somehow have some proof they cannot refuse. This one is more opinion though.....and just like assholes, everyone has one and their not likely to exchange it with anyone else.

[Forty-six & Two]

I've found that it's almost impossible to convince anyone of anything once they've made their mind up, being on a forum & the internet only compounds this problem to where it becomes almost impossible unless you somehow have some proof they cannot refuse. This one is more opinion though.....and just like assholes, everyone has one and their not likely to exchange it with anyone else.

My point excatly. And I think thats my que to head to bed.

[Doyle]

The cornerstone of 46&2's argument has been reduced to "guns are made for killing." That's all he has left. What 46&2 won't acknowledge is that anymore most guns are made for recreational use. People hunt with them, they shoot in competitions, they shoot more leisurely, or they collect them. The purpose of the gun has changed. It is no longer an item primarily for killing, if indeed it ever was, it is now an item primarily for recreation.

The position is clear and logical. A man thinking rationally can only come to one conclusion: Guns are no longer made for killing. Their role in society has evolved, as have the roles of automobiles and knives and myriads of other objects. When the car was first invented, who could have thought our society would come to depend on it? When the knife was invented, it was a tool and sometimes a weapon. Now its primary purpose has changed, most knives are weed utensils.

He says they have value to society. This is untrue, they do. Their value to society is difficult to measure, though, like that of alcohol or sports. Recreation is important to people, and probably will always be important. Firing a gun at a paper target and two sports teams competing are not so different.

[Forty-six & Two]

The cornerstone of 46&2's argument has been reduced to "guns are made for killing." That's all he has left. What 46&2 won't acknowledge is that anymore most guns are made for recreational use. People hunt with them, they shoot in competitions, they shoot more leisurely, or they collect them. The purpose of the gun has changed. It is no longer an item primarily for killing, if indeed it ever was, it is now an item primarily for recreation.

The position is clear and logical. A man thinking rationally can only come to one conclusion: Guns are no longer made for killing. Their role in society has evolved, as have the roles of automobiles and knives and myriads of other objects. When the car was first invented, who could have thought our society would come to depend on it? When the knife was invented, it was a tool and sometimes a weapon. Now its primary purpose has changed, most knives are weed utensils.

He says they have value to society. This is untrue, they do. Their value to society is difficult to measure, though, like that of alcohol or sports. Recreation is important to people, and probably will always be important. Firing a gun at a paper target and two sports teams competing are not so different.

Ok, just before I head to bed I will say this last thing...

What do you mean I have nothing left than that!? I have used severeal other arguments that are just as important.

Legalizing guns would make it alot harder to prevent guns from reaching the wrong hands. Police wont have an excuse for taking a gun from somebody before its been used to threat, hurt or even kill somebody.

What is the best way to stop gun related crime and violence? Make sure there are less guns around to use on people. Dont buy a gun. Dont cultivate the violence. Dont flood your country with evne more guns than it already has.

Some people might enjoy shooting for fun, relaxisation Etc. But tell me one thing then, what is most important for you? Getting rid of guns as a mean of killing people or playing around with your "little friend". The only reason a gun is entertaining is because it has power. When you hold a gun, you have that power.

People are selfish, they are greedy and power hungry. Why give them more power?

Are those arguments useless?? Well if you feel they are, then youre in this discussion to protect your right to cap anyone who pisses you off, just as much as airsoft.

The point of my arguments are getting rid of guns as a mean of killing. Because I dont think its a good thing that innocent people are dying. And if you agreed with me on that you would be alot more open to my arguments.

[Doyle]

Legalizing guns would make it alot harder to prevent guns from reaching the wrong hands. Police wont have an excuse for taking a gun from somebody before its been used to threat, hurt or even kill somebody.

England proves this isn't true, and you agreed.

Some people might enjoy shooting for fun, relaxisation Etc. But tell me one thing then, what is most important for you? Getting rid of guns as a mean of killing people or playing around with your "little friend". The only reason a gun is entertaining is because it has power. When you hold a gun, you have that power.

See, this is what I'm talking about when I say people don't understand guns. I doubt you've ever even held a gun in your life, let alone fired one. I don't expect you to understand the level of skill and concentration involved in shooting them.

Are those arguments useless?

Sure are. You brought up two points in this post:

1) Gun control lowers crime

2) Guns are only useful as recreation because they empower people

Both of those are wrong.

[airsoft guy]

Who the fuck said I have the right to cap someone who pisses me off? Are you stupid? Is it just the fact you can't read English so well? I never said I was going to just "cap" people that pissed me off? Fucking wank. If that was my intent I would have sent you some cobras by now.

People are selfish, they are greedy and power hungry. Why give them more power?

You justified the whole point of the Second Ammendment, it's there so greedy, power hungry fuckstick government officials couldn't gain power and turn the United States into another English nightmare.

[Franz Schubert]

Last I checked that means you're all out of points, you don't got shit to stand on anymore.

Check again, cockface, it means we've all been repeating the same points over and over. I'm done with this one also, but you and 46&2 can keep arguing if you want.

Violence begats violence right up to the point where I've killed all the bad people, then it's Miller time.

You're just a bonified Lone Ranger, aren't you? And Miller sucks btw...

[Forty-six & Two]

1) Gun control lowers crime

2) Guns are only useful as recreation because they empower people

Both of those are wrong.

Making guns legal just means that everyone now has a gun and not just the criminal. What does that mean? That means were ready for a war. Both sides are armed and ready to cap each other. Does that make your country peacefull. No, it makes it a warzone.

You cannot stop violence by being violent!! Its logic. You can only start a war based on opinons. It all comes down to what right and what is wrong, and fact is: neither of the concept exsist, because morale is an induvidual thing. We cant just shoot each other because we have different ways of looking at the world. A criminal doenst have a problem with stealing, but you have. When you pick up a gun and shoot back youre just starting a war. That way we can keep fighting each other forever, cuz we will enver agree. Its not a good solution to peace, but its the only one.

I do like the concept of guns and shooting. The power a weapon gives me. Dont think im one of those morons who thinks there shouldnt be anyone blood, guns etc. in action movies/games. I play lots of violent PC games that has guns, and I enjoy it. But its all in my mind. I guess thats the same thing as going to the shooting range and not intending to go out and shoot everyone for no apperant reason. Guns dont kill people, people kill people. But they use a gun... make sure there are no guns for them to use. You wont do that by legalizing guns, you will only have more people shooting at each other.

Maybe gun restrictions doesnt work, but fact is laws will always be broken, the only thing you can do is enforce them or give up. Legalizing will only cultivate the use of guns.

On the comment of guns and how to use them.

Yes, I have fired a gun and a rifle, both at a shooting range here in Denmark. I found it fun and entertaining, yes, Just like I would an FPS. but I wouldnt go buy a gun so I could use it as a weapon. And I have only been at a shooting range that one time because they had a open house day.

You said it wasnt that easy to shoot a gun? Well, you might not be hitting a fly from 150 meters distance if you didnt practice, but you could sure as hell hit someone in 2-3 shots if they were in the 10 meter vicinity, ven though it was the second time you used a gun. And really 10 meters vicinity, is all you need to kill someone.

[airsoft guy]

And you're a bonified Buddah, aren't you? And I don't drink anyways.

[Forty-six & Two]

Who the fuck said I have the right to cap someone who pisses me off? Are you stupid? Is it just the fact you can't read English so well? I never said I was going to just "cap" people that pissed me off? Fucking wank. If that was my intent I would have sent you some cobras by now.

Ok, sorry, I put that a bad way. I dont think you would shoot someone just because they gave you the eye or say you were a wanker or something like that. But fact is some people might, just because they are sickos, psychos and nutjobs. My point is that anyone who has a gun has the power to decide who lives or dies. Every random joe shouldnt have that power.

[Franz Schubert]

Sorry, private security can only use the same defense that their employer would be allowed to use to defend himself or his property. That includes all laws about deadly force and whatnot, so if you wanted security guards with M16A4's, everyone would have to be allowed to carry M16A4's.

Um, I'm talking about a hypothetical situation in which I am proposing laws and tweaking existing laws.

46&2, don't pull a soldier (desperately argue the same point forever), go to bed

[Slave_Master]

Making guns legal just means that everyone now has a gun and not just the criminal. What does that mean? That means were ready for a war. Both sides are armed and ready to cap each other. Does that make your country peacefull. No, it makes it a warzone.

That's assuming that all criminals organized, and effectively attempted to slaughter everyone. And even if it was true, a warzone is still better than criminals slaughtering defenseless law-abiding citizens.

Ok, sorry, I put that a bad way. I dont think you would shoot someone just because they gave you the eye or say you were a wanker or something like that. But fact is some people might, just because they are sickos, psychos and nutjobs. My point is that anyone who has a gun has the power to decide who lives or dies. Every random joe shouldnt have that power.

1. As Doyle pointed out, any sicko, psycho, or nutjob can just as easily flip out and stab me, or flip out and run me over.

2. A person with a gun doesn't have the power to decide who lives and who dies if everyone else also has a gun. It is true, however, in a gun controlled society, which is a good argument against it. Thanks.

Um, I'm talking about a hypothetical situation in which I am proposing laws and tweaking existing laws.

Yeah, and if you increase the gun rights of private security, you have to increase the gun rights of the average citizen. If one wants to say only private security gets additional gun rights,I don't like the idea of a corporation having more gun rights than me.

[airsoft guy]

They could do that same thing with a knife, or their fists! If they're so fucking insane they've probably got a record of it anyways and there are laws against insane people from owning firearms, Gun Control Act of 1968 I believe is the one in question, there's something in there about retards, non-citizens, insane folk and minors from owning firarms.

If someone mugs you and you pull a gun that's not a war that's you defending yourself. That mugger? He does not deserve to live, he is an animal and deserves to be treated like one, and what do you do to bad dogs? Kill them.

And shouldn't you be in bed?

[Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD]

46&2 take this as your education in gun control nuts. americans dont want gun control because they fear everything that walks the planet, including communism.
they wont listen to reason because they think everyone should have a gun and be able to use it at anytime, be it for target pratice or self-defense.
last time i checked guns were created to kill people and if you cant see that you are disillusioned by propeganda. they werent created for the good of society or for target practice.
saying a bow or knife is an equally deadly weapon is a pretty toolish statement in itself. i dont see people going into buildings or schools and stabbing multiple people at the same time.