The end has arrived

Briareus · Post by **Briareus** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:39 pm

atoga wrote:Hey, the sales of this game might determine your job Briareus, shouldn't you be sweating or something?

No. Not only do I not worry about things that don't concern me, I also do not worry about things that are beyond my control.

Slave_Master · Post by **Slave_Master** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:41 pm

Briareus, bitching is a natural reaction to powerlessness. I highly doubt anyone would be bitching if our input was desired, and acted upon.

Briareus · Post by **Briareus** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:48 pm

Slave_Master wrote:Briareus, bitching is a natural reaction to powerlessness. I highly doubt anyone would be bitching if our input was desired, and acted upon.

I was merely making an observation. No malice intended.

As for acting upon your desires, it is quite impossible for us to do so when you (not you the individual, I'm talking about the collective you of these fora) can barely agree on anything as it is -- with the exception that, in general, you don't like FOBOS.

Slave_Master · Post by **Slave_Master** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:59 pm

I'd say that just about everybody could agree on why exactly they hated FOBOS. Mr. Cuevas decided to ignore our advice to make the game not shit. I will agree that a few folks went over the line in their flaming of the game, but everyone else had valid reasons as to why they thought FOBOS was not representative of the Fallout universe, how amazingly sexist and racist it is, etc.

EvoG · Post by **EvoG** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:12 pm

Curious...you guys are saying that this game is 'shit', yet no one has played it. Is it shit merely for the fact that it abuses the FO license? What if the game is actually fun ( assume for a moment you enjoy action games )? What if the game didn't have the FO license? Is it still 'shit' arbitrarily just because?

Truth be told, though its fun to read about all your bitching, I have no real feels about this game. If you want this game to fail, and Interplay to go under in combination with the bold proclaimation that you will never play another FO game and don't wish for them to make it(FO3), then why bother saying anything at all and just go back and play FO1 again.

Cheers

Briareus · Post by **Briareus** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:17 pm

Slave_Master wrote:I'd say that just about everybody could agree on why exactly they hated FOBOS. Mr. Cuevas decided to ignore our advice to make the game not shit.

Thanks, but I don't think anyone needs the obvious pointed out to them.

Slave_Master wrote:I will agree that a few folks went over the line in their flaming of the game, but everyone else had valid reasons as to why they thought FOBOS was not representative of the Fallout universe, how amazingly sexist and racist it is, etc.

Maybe it was only a few, but on the boards these few were the loudest. Anyone that tried to make a point other than "this game will suck" was drowned out and lost in the mosh pit. Constructive criticism was lost due to the noise of the mass of rabid fans. Even when constructive criticism was given, it was often surrounded by venom and spite.

Now, I ask you - if you're a game developer with deadlines to meet and reading the boards isn't part of your job, how long would you expect the average reasonable developer to sift through all the tripe that is/was on the boards in order to find a good idea? The signal to noise ratio is awful on these boards, and was abysmal on the official boards way back when. The lot of you sound like the parents from South Park in the mayor's office yelling, "RABBLE, RABBLE, RABBLE!" over and over. It accomplishes nothing other than allowing you to vent your frustrations to a sympathetic crowd. The problem is that the crowd you're venting to has no authority over the problems you have with the game. It's a shame really. There are a lot of smart people on these boards, but they are rarely heard due to all the bitching.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:21 pm

because we're fallout fans?

I dunno the game looks pretty shitty and from previews sounds pretty shitty. I wouldn't mind this at all, as it wouldn't matter. But instead it's being made by a company that have made 2 very good games that I've played a lot and now it looks like a piece of shit?

As for the 'rabid rabble'...so what? A guy we never heard of starts making a crappy rip-off and most people are pissed. Even if we had made suggestions they usually don't listen and it's still and always will be a crappy spin-off. I hope devs don't listen to most of the remaining 'fallout fans' left on the interplay board for their fo3 suggestions either.

Slave_Master · Post by **Slave_Master** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:26 pm

EvoG wrote:Curious...you guys are saying that this game is 'shit', yet no one has played it

If it looks like shit and smells like shit, I don't have to taste it to determine that it is, in fact, shit.

Briareus wrote:Now, I ask you - if you're a game developer with deadlines to meet and reading the boards isn't part of your job, how long would you expect the average reasonable developer to sift through all the tripe that is/was on the boards in order to find a good idea?

I might agree with you, had Cuevas not turned down an interview with NMA, in effect showing he had no intentions whatsoever of dealing with the evil, mean, Fallout fans.

The signal to noise ratio is awful on these boards, and was abysmal on the official boards way back when.

I agree. All the positive "feedback" on FOBOS consisted of "HYE LOL BUY TEH GAME SO FO3 GETS MADE KEKEKEKE".

The problem is that the crowd you're venting to has no authority over the problems you have with the game.

That wouldn't the case if not for the FOBOS board being locked up until two days ago.

Briareus · Post by **Briareus** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:34 pm

Slave_Master wrote:
Briareus wrote:Now, I ask you - if you're a game developer with deadlines to meet and reading the boards isn't part of your job, how long would you expect the average reasonable developer to sift through all the tripe that is/was on the boards in order to find a good idea?
I might agree with you, had Cuevas not turned down an interview with NMA, in effect showing he had no intentions whatsoever of dealing with the evil, mean, Fallout fans.

What does not doing an interview have to do with finding a constructive post on the boards? In any event, that was after repeated abuse by "the fans." You guys went as far as posting his phone extension and had people call and harass him and send him email after email of venom and spite. After that, you should consider yourselves damn lucky any dev talks to you at all on any fora.

Slave_Master wrote:
The signal to noise ratio is awful on these boards, and was abysmal on the official boards way back when.
I agree. All the positive "feedback" on FOBOS consisted of "HYE LOL BUY TEH GAME SO FO3 GETS MADE KEKEKEKE".

Thank you for proving my point.

Slave_Master wrote:
The problem is that the crowd you're venting to has no authority over the problems you have with the game.
That wouldn't the case if not for the FOBOS board being locked up until two days ago.

And who's fault is it that the boards were locked? They were useless. It seemed impossible to find anything redeeming about the threads at the time. In that situation, why keep them around?

Slave_Master · Post by **Slave_Master** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:43 pm

Briareus wrote:What does not doing an interview have to do with finding a constructive post on the boards?

Me wrote:in effect showing he had no intentions whatsoever of dealing with the evil, mean, Fallout fans.

Briareus wrote:You guys went as far as posting his phone extension and had people call and harass him

IIRC, his number was already publicly available.

After that, you should consider yourselves damn lucky any dev talks to you at all on any fora.

Most devs don't make games that

a) Skullfuck/Rape/Butcher a decent setting
b) Are filled with ethnic and sexual stereotypes

Thank you for proving my point.

Howso?

And who's fault is it that the boards were locked?

Lazy mods and dishonest developers, maybe?

They were useless. It seemed impossible to find anything redeeming about the threads at the time. In that situation, why keep them around?

Excellent point. If one hears something one does not want to hear, one should censor it.

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:48 pm

Project Phenox is really FOBOS

Briareus · Post by **Briareus** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:07 pm

Slave_Master wrote:
Briareus wrote:What does not doing an interview have to do with finding a constructive post on the boards?
Me wrote:in effect showing he had no intentions whatsoever of dealing with the evil, mean, Fallout fans.
Briareus wrote:You guys went as far as posting his phone extension and had people call and harass him
IIRC, his number was already publicly available.

Whether that's true or not is irrelevant. It was posted on the main news page and asked for DAC readers to call him and let him know what you thought.

And like I said, that was AFTER his number was posted and some of you began harassing him directly (which was before the boards were closed).

So, what does not doing an interview have to do with finding a constructive post on the boards?

Slave_Master wrote:
After that, you should consider yourselves damn lucky any dev talks to you at all on any fora.
Most devs don't make games that

a) Skullfuck/Rape/Butcher a decent setting
b) Are filled with ethnic and sexual stereotypes

So, you're saying that if you hear about a game and you happen to like what you see and here the dev can expect constructive criticism, but if you don't then it's all about RAGING AGAINST THE MACHINE! ANGST! ANGST! ANGST! Again, you prove another of my points.

Slave_Master wrote:
Thank you for proving my point.
Howso?

Since you couldn't remember a good idea that was made on the FOBOS boards, that just goes to show that yet another person couldn't find any, which proves my point that we can't listen to you and do what you want if we can't find your good ideas.

Slave_Master wrote:
And who's fault is it that the boards were locked?
Lazy mods and dishonest developers, maybe?

Lazy?! The mods were either overwhelmed by the sheer number of flames on the boards or tried and then just gave up and let the wave of vile pour over them.

As for dishonest, when were they dishonest?

Slave_Master wrote:
They were useless. It seemed impossible to find anything redeeming about the threads at the time. In that situation, why keep them around?
Excellent point. If one hears something one does not want to hear, one should censor it.

I can't (and won't) speek for the guys on the FOBOS team, but after reading the FOBOS boards I always came away with the impression you just said, "FUCK YOU! YOU'RE DUMB! LISTEN TO ME! YOU'RE WRONG! YOU'RE BEING SEXIST! I'M WRITE! FUCK INTERPLAY! BLAH! LISTEN TO ME! WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME! AREN'T YOU BEING RACIST! HEY! I'M RIGHT HERE! BLAH! BLAH! INTERPLAY SHOULD DIE!"

There's only so much of that anyone can listen to before they just walk away in disgust. There are two good points in that shouting, but like I said before, they get lost in all the noise.

Ooe · Post by **Ooe** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:21 pm

"Highly anticipated" my ass!

Menno · Post by **Menno** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:27 pm

I can't speak for why everyone else doesn't like F:BOS, and from what I read most of their reasons hit the nail on the head, but for me it's something like this:

Imagine for a moment if Nintendo created a new Zelda game, except this time the characters included elves with DD breasts, characters with dark complexions with fat lips who speak in stereotypical tones, changes most of the game universe, and the marketing pushed the game as "Link finally is going to bang Zelda and put that bitch in her place!" Tell me honestly if you wouldn't think the whole Nintendo fan community would be up in arms over what they done with the Zelda franchise (Hell, look when the reaction when they made it cell-shaded)? You can bet they would be, and the entire game review industry would be criticizing them constantly. [similiar to what happened with BMX XXX, which was ocsterized by almost the entire gaming community]

Now lets apply that logic to the new Fallout game, Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel. Interplay takes a mature-themed Post-Apocalyptic game universe, over sexualizes it by having women wear bras and thongs and they all have DD cup breasts, has African-Americans as big overgrown oafs who talk ghetto slang and calls everyone a bitch, destroys the Fallout storyline, and markets the game as being better than sex. Obviously, the Fallout community is up in arms, because Interplay just obliterated the entire Fallout universe for the sake of marketing. But get this, now when Fallout fans speak out, it's "our" fault, we're judging a game before it's even out, and we're a bunch of overgrown kids who should get a life since it's only a game. See the double-standard?

I noticed that both Briareus and EvoG are developers. What if someone took your work, your game that took years of development and hard work, only to obliterate all you worked for so it can fit in for their new game? That is what's happening with Fallout:BOS. Let's take a look at a few things for a moment. For example, the Brotherhood of Steel logo in Fallout:BOS. It replaces the sword and gear logo of the previous games with two red handguns. Considering that Fallout Tactics was this developers's source of information, the Fallout Tactics box has the Brotherhood of Steel logo as clear as day right on the front. He instead replaces it because to him it probably looked "cooler". It's like taking the American Flag and making it 10 stripes. There's 13 stripes for a reason, just as the original Brotherhood of Steel logo looked the way it did for a reason. What it shows is the developers didn't do their research when making this game, which shows a lack of effort. You may think, "big deal, it's just a logo". Ok, so lets look a little deeper.

I read somewhere (on Gamespy I believe) that the Vaults in F:BOS are self-repairing. What they basically just did, just from those few simple words, is basically make the first two Fallout games pointless. That's right, just from those few words they ruined the entire Fallout 1 and 2 storyline; the game experience you had was completely pointless. Story-wise, that's like making a new Star Wars film and announcing that the Death Star was self-repairing, making the original trilogy fruitless. Alot of hard working people worked on that Fallout timeline, from employees of Black Isle like Avellone to the community who contributed to it immensely, and what these guys did is just throw it all away. Why? Because of a lack of effort. It was "easier" to just make up stuff from the small bits of information they even bothered to gather than look at examine the Fallout universe and maintain consistency.

I noticed that EvoG and his development studio is making a new game, tentatively titled Project: Phoneix. I'll be honest with you, that game you're making intrigues me greatly, and I'm looking forward to playing it once you guys finish making it. Lets say you continue working hard on it and get it out, and it becomes a moderate success. Then a guy like me comes along in charge of producing a sequel to your game, and says "Wow, this universe you guys created is cool, but to be honest I want to make this more of an action game instead of an RPG." As I'm making this new game, I say "This storyline is good, but it doesn't fit in with the game we're gonna make." So I proceed to change the storyline you guys worked so hard on to fit my image of the game, adding chicks with DD breasts and black guys who talk ghetto to fit in with marketing schtick. Then I say "The look of your game world looks fine, but it doesn't fit in with my game" so I proceed to entirely change the look of your game world to suit my needs. All the hard work you guys did to make this game world credible is just obliterated so I can fit it in with my image of the game. The game ends up becoming less Project: Phoenix with each change I make, it may as well not be it at all. I doubt you would be happy with that outcome, right?

It's not about the graphics (though they honestly look like shit), the gameplay (which is basically a Dark Alliance clone, like the RTS clones that popped up years ago); it's about consistency of the universe. Why has something like Star Wars or Star Trek been so popular over the years? Because of the original material, but also because the new material is consistent with their respective universes. Lucasarts goes through tons of procedures rejecting ideas that don't fit in with the SW universe. Why? So the SW universe can continue to be profitable, because the more radical changes you make the less it becomes Star Wars. So, to summarize I don't like F:BOS not because I think it's a bad game gameplay-wise, but because of what it does to the Fallout universe. Storyline is very important in games, just as much as gameplay. And what this piece of crap does is radically alter the storyline, ruining the Fallout universe. Sure, you can change it back again, but the damage is already done, because now you got to convince these new gamers where F:BOS was wrong about.

Briareus · Post by **Briareus** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:46 pm

Menno wrote:Imagine for a moment if Nintendo created a new Zelda game, except this time the characters included elves with DD breasts, characters with dark complexions with fat lips who speak in stereotypical tones, changes most of the game universe, and the marketing pushed the game as "Link finally is going to bang Zelda and put that bitch in her place!" Tell me honestly if you wouldn't think the whole Nintendo fan community would be up in arms over what they done with the Zelda franchise (Hell, look when the reaction when they made it cell-shaded)? You can bet they would be, and the entire game review industry would be criticizing them constantly. [similiar to what happened with BMX XXX, which was ocsterized by almost the entire gaming community]

I've never said that people don't have a right to their opinion. I've also never said that you can't express it on the boards. What I'm saying is that posts like these (i.e, well written, makes good arguments, and refrains from personal attacks on developers) get lost in the sea of bile that the few rabid fans vomit forth. As such, it IS the fault of these rabid fans that devs started ignoring everyone.

Menno wrote:What if someone took your work, your game that took years of development and hard work, only to obliterate all you worked for so it can fit in for their new game?

Please see all the work that went into TORN and Jefferson. Oh wait... you can't.

Menno wrote:I read somewhere (on Gamespy I believe) that the Vaults in F:BOS are self-repairing. What they basically just did, just from those few simple words, is basically make the first two Fallout games pointless.

I disagree. The previous games still stand on their own. Just like many Star Wars fans feel that episodes 4 - 6 are cannon and just ignore the whole midiclorians(sp?) schtick, so too can the Fallout fans ignore any changes they disagree with in FOBOS. Many of you did with the changes that were in Tactics (like hairy deathclaws).

As for you last paragraph where you state that Star Wars and Star Trek have remained consistent, I must laugh at you. HA! I've worked on a Star Trek title and the fans couldn't even agree how much damage a photon torpedo does due to all of the conflicts of what one does in one episode vs. another. They are popular, but for reasons far removed from consistency.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:12 pm

Briarieus is right.

I can add in : why are we all flaming FOBOS?
Because Chuck and his fellas are constantly, each time they throw some new screenshot, trailer or interview, destroy a bit more the FO universe. Each time it is worst. The first trailer didn't include that much blacks and sex clichÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â©s, but each new trailer had some more of it, each new interview butcher the story, and each new screenshot destroy the atmosphere, everything, from monster to weapons to the colors used to detail the world change what FO looked like.

Menno · Post by **Menno** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:52 pm

Actually, you're absolutely right about Star Trek, so I lose that argument. But look what happened with Star Wars? Ask any SW fan, and you'll see that most hate the new films. If you factor in that he never allowed anyone to mess around with what happened prior to Episode 4, whatever George Lucas wrote was official canon. If FOBOS took place during a period which wasn't specified in the original Fallout universe, it wouldn't have been a problem. Instead they make it take place during or after Fallout 1. Don't you see that it already conflicts with the Brotherhood of Steel portion of the storyline? In Fallout, they're a group that value technology (almost to the point of worship), with a strict hierarchy, in which they're isolationalists. They don't go around playing police officer like they do in Fallout:BOS and don't just let anyone in (the only reason why the let you in was because they were amazed you actually came back from the Glow alive), and I think most people here agree that Fallout Tactics, while an ok game, didn't really adhere to the Fallout universe either. You don't make a spinoff from yet another spinoff, it just doesn't make sense. But Interplay is free to make this game, I'm not stopping them; but I'm free to crticize it also.

Perhaps you can explain to me why I was banned for criticizing the game in the Fallout:BOS boards, since I didn't curse or call them stupid. Maybe you guys can learn a thing or two from the Bioware boards. While I'm not the biggest fan of Bioware games, they routinely take part in major discussions (even when they get criticized and ripped by name-calling), and they don't go around deleting every thread that disagrees with their game. EVEN if it's bad criticism. Sure, they lock threads if there's 10 topics of the same thing, but I have never seen, even through the worst of criticisms (aside from full brown cursing/racist comments) them delete a post/thread for the sake of disagreement as Interplay did with a thread I made awhile back on their boards. If you want to stereotype me as some loudmouth who curses everyone out just because I come here on these forums, be my guest. But if that's the case, I'm also free to stereotype all of Interplay as a bunch of idiots who don't know how to run a company, or make a game for that matter.

Slave_Master · Post by **Slave_Master** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:52 pm

Briareus wrote:So, what does not doing an interview have to do with finding a constructive post on the boards?

Like I've said twice, he didn't give two shits about what anybody thought. As far as the ratio of constructive posts to non-constructive, it's hard to tell now, because all posts were deleted. Of course, there were not nearly as many "OMG U SUX" posts as you insist there were, so Mr. Cuevas really just didn't give a fuck.

So, you're saying that if you hear about a game and you happen to like what you see and here the dev can expect constructive criticism, but if you don't then it's all about RAGING AGAINST THE MACHINE! ANGST! ANGST! ANGST! Again, you prove another of my points.

No, I'm saying that if devs make racist, sexist, shitty games, they shouldn't expect to be drowning in positive feedback.

Since you couldn't remember a good idea that was made on the FOBOS boards, that just goes to show that yet another person couldn't find any,

It's rather hard to find posts that were deleted, don't you think? Here are some good ideas, all of which were posted on the boards:

1. Ditch the sluts
2. Make the black guy less stereotypical
3. Change the story so that the BOS isn't "OMG WASTELAND KOPS"
4. Make the super mutants look like super mutants, not orcs
5. Stop using sex to sell the game (Could apply under 1.)
6. If you ignore everything else, take everything to do with Fallout out of the game.

Every one of those were posted. Not one of them was listened to. Kind of hurts your "There weren't any good ideas, lol I dont have to back it up because all the posts were deleted so stfu" argument.

Lazy?! The mods were either overwhelmed by the sheer number of flames on the boards or tried and then just gave up and let the wave of vile pour over them

.

Sheer number of flames my ass. Outright flaming wasn't so common that they couldn't handle it. When it's their job to delete posts that conflict with the rules, they should be expected to do it. My bad, they were deleting nearly all negative posts. No wonder why they were so "overwhelmed".

As for dishonest, when were they dishonest?

Dishonest was the wrong word, and I apologize for using it. The devs are dishonest with their interview tactic of blaming people who had nothing to do with development for how much the game sucks, but that had nothing to do with the boards. I suppose "Gestapo", "Nazi", or any other synonym for "censor" would be more applicable.

I can't (and won't) speek for the guys on the FOBOS team, but after reading the FOBOS boards I always came away with the impression you just said, "FUCK YOU! YOU'RE DUMB! LISTEN TO ME! YOU'RE WRONG! YOU'RE BEING SEXIST! I'M WRITE! FUCK INTERPLAY! BLAH! LISTEN TO ME! WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME! AREN'T YOU BEING RACIST! HEY! I'M RIGHT HERE! BLAH! BLAH! INTERPLAY SHOULD DIE!"

After reading the FOBOS boards I always came away with the impression you guys just said, "Fuck off serfs, we don't give two shits what you think!"

Since we both reduced the arguments to their most base elements, I suppose it really isn't mouthstuffing, right?

Mad Max RW · Post by **Mad Max RW** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:11 pm

If you can't take the heat get out of the business.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:30 pm

Mad Max RW wrote:If you can't take the heat get out of the business.

Agreed, MMRW. If anything, Chucky could stop bitching back.