Perpetual Water Machine
- Franz Schubert
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Perpetual Water Machine
The talk of nuclear/solar energy on that stupid car thread reminded me of an idea I had once for a perpetual motion machine. I'll give a quick detail of it since I'm pretty sure it won't work, though if one of you bastards steals the idea, I swear I'll cut you...
Basically, it's a huge tube structure created upright in the ocean. There is a valve at the bottom. The turbine and generator is at the middle and the top is open. So the entire thing is lowered into the ocean with the valve closed, so water doesn't get in it yet. Then, when it's all the way down, the valve is opened and water rushes in.
Here's my hypothesis: Since the pressure under the ocean is so much greater than the air pressure at sea level, I think that when the water level in the tube reaches sea level, it will keep moving because of the great pressure below. Since the water in the pipe is enclosed the whole way, there is only air pressure being applied so the entire system is unbalanced, and water will continue to rush up from the bottom, displacing the water at the top, which falls back into the ocean. Thus you have created a giant syphon that will run forever, and you can harvest energy from it the entire time! Here's a diagram for all you visual learners out there:
HA HA HA! I'm a mad genius. Just wait, world, one day I'll unleash my REAL ideas upon you! Then the mighty will look upon my works and despair! :maniacalrage: :exorcistheadspin:
Basically, it's a huge tube structure created upright in the ocean. There is a valve at the bottom. The turbine and generator is at the middle and the top is open. So the entire thing is lowered into the ocean with the valve closed, so water doesn't get in it yet. Then, when it's all the way down, the valve is opened and water rushes in.
Here's my hypothesis: Since the pressure under the ocean is so much greater than the air pressure at sea level, I think that when the water level in the tube reaches sea level, it will keep moving because of the great pressure below. Since the water in the pipe is enclosed the whole way, there is only air pressure being applied so the entire system is unbalanced, and water will continue to rush up from the bottom, displacing the water at the top, which falls back into the ocean. Thus you have created a giant syphon that will run forever, and you can harvest energy from it the entire time! Here's a diagram for all you visual learners out there:
HA HA HA! I'm a mad genius. Just wait, world, one day I'll unleash my REAL ideas upon you! Then the mighty will look upon my works and despair! :maniacalrage: :exorcistheadspin:
It probably wouldn't work, because of the laws of thermodynamics or something. If you think this idea really would fly, maybe finding out some actual numbers and doing calculations would be good? I donno if the pressure of the ocean would be enough to lift it up past sea level AND power a turbine, infact I doubt it. :-!
The water will never, I repeat, NEVER rise above sea level. It doesn't do that normally does it? The water pressure in the deep water is there because of the the water pressing from above. Once it will get loos it will just rise up to sea level and stay still. You see, water had an energy-line and with still water (like the ocean) it's at waterlevel, the water will never naturally rise above that level. Im gonna be a civil engineer in about 2,5 years and I tell you it will never work, even when pumping it upwards. Which would make the structure useless because pumping it woul require energy and far more energy then you would get back from it.
- OnTheBounce
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ACtually there is a similar machine developed some years ago that could probably work. Of course Frankies machine would work only for the time necessary for the deep water to reach the surface. But in this other machine what would cause a small but significant flow would be the difference in salt gradients and temperature. You see, in the polar regions water becomes ice at a temperature below 0C (fuck Farenheit) but the water deep down is so compressed that it can not cool below 4C (fuck Farenieht again), dont forget that when water freezes it expands and the pressure is to high. So the colder water when melting at 1C (yes you know it) will be colder then the water deep down and cold water sinks (also because it has less salt). This creates downward currents and so the only adaptation for Frankies machine to work would be to invert the generator. Oh yes and take it to the poles.
OTOH I would bet my manny in heolic or tide powered turbines.
OTOH I would bet my manny in heolic or tide powered turbines.
Carpe jugulum.
It wouldn't work because, just look around the tube-- why doesn't the water rush up constantly to escape the high pressure? (regardless of the tube)
this would work for about 5minutes when the valve was first openned because water would rush in and push out the air. But considering that it would be nearly impossible to lower the air filled tube that deep withought it popping back up or imploding, even the first 5 mins wouldn't be worth it.
(once I get to school, I'll draw a picture of my idea of a ocean based turbine thing )
this would work for about 5minutes when the valve was first openned because water would rush in and push out the air. But considering that it would be nearly impossible to lower the air filled tube that deep withought it popping back up or imploding, even the first 5 mins wouldn't be worth it.
(once I get to school, I'll draw a picture of my idea of a ocean based turbine thing )
- Jimmyjay86
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There are several problems I could think of off the top of my head.
First off there will be friction losses on the sides of the pipe as the water travels through the pipe. There will also be a head loss when the water flows through the turbine as the energy is transferred from the water to the turbine. The initial spurt of water will be slowed down quite a bit by the time it reaches the surface.
I don't know if there really would be a siphon effect, once the water reached the top the pressures would be equalized and there wouldn't be any forces acting on the system. Siphons work with gravity to provide a force to keep moving the liquid through a tube.
Sorry, keep working....
First off there will be friction losses on the sides of the pipe as the water travels through the pipe. There will also be a head loss when the water flows through the turbine as the energy is transferred from the water to the turbine. The initial spurt of water will be slowed down quite a bit by the time it reaches the surface.
I don't know if there really would be a siphon effect, once the water reached the top the pressures would be equalized and there wouldn't be any forces acting on the system. Siphons work with gravity to provide a force to keep moving the liquid through a tube.
Sorry, keep working....
- Franz Schubert
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From my own experiments (on a much smaller scale) I am fairly certain that my idea is theoretically sound. But first, a brief physics lesson for our friend, the amateur "civil engineer" furios666 (cool name btw):
Well, let's see. Here we have two water levels, one of which is decidedly higher than the other, yet you can see in "Diagram A" that the water is flowing towards the higher water level, and out a pipe at the top of the mountain. "But Franz, how can that be?" You ask. I'll tell you! It's because despite the height difference, there is still more pressure coming from the water tower than there is at the spout on the mountain, which means that the system is unbalanced. As everyone knows, if you have an unbalanced system, it will naturally shift until it reaches equilibrium. In this case, the equilibrium is achieved by shifting water towards the low-pressure side (the mountain spout, in case you're an idiot).
In this hypothetical case of the water tower, I would estimate a hypothetical equilibrium to be as shown in "Diagram B":
Here you will note, by the conspicuous lack of motion-indicating arrows, that the water is completely still. That is to say, it's not moving from one side of the system to the other.
I hope you learned a valuable lesson, furios666 (god I love that name). Actually, I'll summarize the lesson, in case you didn't quite garner it from my brilliant lecture.
Now back to why my Perpetual Water Machine would theoretically work. In my experiments, I created a miniature scale model of my machine (without the turbines, valves etc.) by using a tupperware container full of water and a glass tube. I put the tube in the container and filled the container with water, then I lifted the tube a bit so the water could rush in, and I observed what happened to the water levels. The water level in the container moved down a bit, whereas the water level in the tube shot up rapidly, moving about an inch past the water level in the container (sorry to contradict you there, furios666). The WL in in the tube peaked, then fell back down about a centimeter below the WL in the container, peaked at the bottom, then went back up. It waffled like this for about 5 seconds or so, then finally reached equilibrium.
Now, obviously you can't get perpetual water out of my little experiment. However, there are two key differences to the Perpetual Water Machine that enable it to theoretically work. First of all, the water level on the outside never lowers. Think back to my water tower example, and imagine if someone was constantly pouring more water into the top of the tower. The result would be a constant spouting of water at the Mountain Spout, because no equilibrium could be reached (since the mountain spout is open-ended)
Now, I know what you're thinking. This principle alone won't create a self-sustaining system, which is of course the ultimate goal of perpetual motion. But this brings me to the second key factor in my Perpetual Water Machine. My machine is on such a scale that the great difference in pressure at the top and bottom is enough to spin the turbines while still being perpetual. The idea is that the water is being pushed from the bottom by the great pressure of the ocean, and pulled from the top by the low pressure of the atmosphere. :flourish:
Well, let's see. Here we have two water levels, one of which is decidedly higher than the other, yet you can see in "Diagram A" that the water is flowing towards the higher water level, and out a pipe at the top of the mountain. "But Franz, how can that be?" You ask. I'll tell you! It's because despite the height difference, there is still more pressure coming from the water tower than there is at the spout on the mountain, which means that the system is unbalanced. As everyone knows, if you have an unbalanced system, it will naturally shift until it reaches equilibrium. In this case, the equilibrium is achieved by shifting water towards the low-pressure side (the mountain spout, in case you're an idiot).
In this hypothetical case of the water tower, I would estimate a hypothetical equilibrium to be as shown in "Diagram B":
Here you will note, by the conspicuous lack of motion-indicating arrows, that the water is completely still. That is to say, it's not moving from one side of the system to the other.
I hope you learned a valuable lesson, furios666 (god I love that name). Actually, I'll summarize the lesson, in case you didn't quite garner it from my brilliant lecture.
Now back to why my Perpetual Water Machine would theoretically work. In my experiments, I created a miniature scale model of my machine (without the turbines, valves etc.) by using a tupperware container full of water and a glass tube. I put the tube in the container and filled the container with water, then I lifted the tube a bit so the water could rush in, and I observed what happened to the water levels. The water level in the container moved down a bit, whereas the water level in the tube shot up rapidly, moving about an inch past the water level in the container (sorry to contradict you there, furios666). The WL in in the tube peaked, then fell back down about a centimeter below the WL in the container, peaked at the bottom, then went back up. It waffled like this for about 5 seconds or so, then finally reached equilibrium.
Now, obviously you can't get perpetual water out of my little experiment. However, there are two key differences to the Perpetual Water Machine that enable it to theoretically work. First of all, the water level on the outside never lowers. Think back to my water tower example, and imagine if someone was constantly pouring more water into the top of the tower. The result would be a constant spouting of water at the Mountain Spout, because no equilibrium could be reached (since the mountain spout is open-ended)
Now, I know what you're thinking. This principle alone won't create a self-sustaining system, which is of course the ultimate goal of perpetual motion. But this brings me to the second key factor in my Perpetual Water Machine. My machine is on such a scale that the great difference in pressure at the top and bottom is enough to spin the turbines while still being perpetual. The idea is that the water is being pushed from the bottom by the great pressure of the ocean, and pulled from the top by the low pressure of the atmosphere. :flourish:
- Jimmyjay86
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- Franz Schubert
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That's not true at all. Look at how much water is in the tank, compared to how much would be at the same level in the thin pipe. You're trying to tell me that with all that weight of water in the tank, the two water levels would be the same? LOL. Don't disrespect "Diagram A". My diagrams are good as fucking gospel. I appreciated your opinion, but please don't waste my time again okay thanks?
EDIT: One more thing. When I actually design and construct this thing and make millions of dollars and a nobel prize, I'm going to dedicate it all to Ozrat, because he's always been so supportive of me, and he always agrees with me and sticks up for me.
EDIT: One more thing. When I actually design and construct this thing and make millions of dollars and a nobel prize, I'm going to dedicate it all to Ozrat, because he's always been so supportive of me, and he always agrees with me and sticks up for me.
- Jimmyjay86
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You are working under some assumptions that have no basis in the real world. Water pressure is directly related to its height not really on the amount of water. In your example it would make no difference if the diameter of the water tank was 50 feet or 100 feet. If the height of the head or surface was the same, the pressure would be the same. The equilibrium surface anywhere would be at the same height. Water would not be able to be any heigher unless the pressure inside the tank was different. This is not an opinion, it is physical fact. Do not assume oterwise!Franz_Schubert wrote:That's not true at all. Look at how much water is in the tank, compared to how much would be at the same level in the thin pipe. You're trying to tell me that with all that weight of water in the tank, the two water levels would be the same? LOL. Don't disrespect "Diagram A". My diagrams are good as fucking gospel. I appreciated your opinion, but please don't waste my time again okay thanks?
EDIT: One more thing. When I actually design and construct this thing and make millions of dollars and a nobel prize, I'm going to dedicate it all to Ozrat, because he's always been so supportive of me, and he always agrees with me and sticks up for me.
Note: I edited out your insults. Keep your arguments civil or I will lock this topic.
- Franz Schubert
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That is only half-true at best. Water pressure is pounds per square feet (substitute whatever units you want). Using this "formula": mass / area = "water pressure", you can do a couple of things. Decrease the area, the pressure increases, increase the area and the pressure is decreased. In the case of "Diagram A", the area's are equal (where it matters, in the pipe). So the only difference in water pressure between the two sides is the amount of water, or the "mass". I could do a numeric example for you, but I think I've made my point. The only reason you thought the height was relevent is because greater height usually = greater mass.Jimmyjay86 wrote:Water pressure is directly related to its height not really on the amount of water.
Man I love physics. It's discussions like these that make me wish I took a physics class in school.
And about the insults, they weren't meant to be taken seriously. Plus, I forgot you are a mod.
- Jimmyjay86
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Ok, I see where your confusion is and it's a common mistake. Water pressure is a function of the density of the water and also gravity. Gravity only acts downward, it doesn't act sideways or at angles. This is why it doesn't matter if you have a tube of water a hundred feet high with one foot diameter or an ocean of water one hundred feet deep. The pressure at the bottom of each will be the same. The surface area of the tank is immaterial.Franz_Schubert wrote: That is only half-true at best. Water pressure is pounds per square feet (substitute whatever units you want). Using this "formula": mass / area = "water pressure", you can do a couple of things. Decrease the area, the pressure increases, increase the area and the pressure is decreased. In the case of "Diagram A", the area's are equal (where it matters, in the pipe). So the only difference in water pressure between the two sides is the amount of water, or the "mass". I could do a numeric example for you, but I think I've made my point. The only reason you thought the height was relevent is because greater height usually = greater mass.
Just so you know I have taken college level fluids and physics classes and am an engineer. So yes I definitely do know what I am talking about...
Look at the bottom of this page to get an idea of the how fluid pressure works.
From the same site:
Since the free surface of the liquid is horizontal, at all points on a horizontal plane at any depth h below the free surface the pressure is the same. The pressure at any depth is however, due not only to the weight of liquid above but to the pressure of air above the surface as well. The total pressure at a depth h is therefore given by the sum of these two pressures. The pressure at the free surface of the liquid (h=0) is only the air pressure.
P = Pª + hρg
It doesn't matter if you were insulting me or anyone else, it isn't tolerated.And about the insults, they weren't meant to be taken seriously. Plus, I forgot you are a mod.
- Franz Schubert
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Oh yeah? Well then, wise guy, how do you explain the final scene of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory?Jimmyjay86 wrote:Gravity only acts downward, it doesn't act sideways or at angles.
What, like magic material? No, I'm talking about a metal tank, full of water!Jimmyjay87 wrote:The surface area of the tank is immaterial.
Wow another one of my jokes just whizzed right by your head, and you didn't even flinch...Jimmyjay86 wrote:It doesn't matter if you were insulting me or anyone else, it isn't tolerated.Plus I forgot you were a mod.
Oh, and I believe you that you are an engineer... my evidence? Your logic is twisty and convoluted and you ignore each and every one of my arguments. Perfect for engineer debates, but I tried to make my sarcasm so glaring and obvious in this post that even you can recognise that I've stopped arguing with you.
- Brother None
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*tilts head*
Y'know, this would go a lot easier if you just read up on your basic physics (I mean, I had water pressure physics in high school, it's not that advanced), shrugged and decided you're wrong, Franz.
Because right now, you're basically arguing against the arguments of not one but two engineers/engineering students, offering no real arguments (though being plenty derogatory) in return.
Or are you going with the line "I was joking, couldn't you idiots see that?"
That's fine too, just so long as you keep in mind nobody's gonna believe you.
Oh, nevermind...
Y'know, this would go a lot easier if you just read up on your basic physics (I mean, I had water pressure physics in high school, it's not that advanced), shrugged and decided you're wrong, Franz.
Because right now, you're basically arguing against the arguments of not one but two engineers/engineering students, offering no real arguments (though being plenty derogatory) in return.
Or are you going with the line "I was joking, couldn't you idiots see that?"
That's fine too, just so long as you keep in mind nobody's gonna believe you.
Oh, nevermind...
Ozrat wrote:I haven't been so oppressed since prom in 9th grade.
- Jimmyjay86
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