China vs. Taiwan

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Menno
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Post by Menno »

iohkus wrote:since we're on the topic of country vs. country lets have some more fun k?

Turkey vs. Iran?
Pakistan vs. India?
Georgia vs. Armenia (lol)
and how bout Finland vs. Sweden for good measure
Turkey decimates Iran, due to their superior military force
India defeats Pakistan, though if nukes are involved both get their asses hit hard
Armenia slaps Georgia, because that's how it happened in my Medieval: Total War game
and Sweden pillages Finland, because the last thing we need is to give Kashluk something else to take pride in
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iohkus
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Post by iohkus »

cnn.com
theguardian.co.uk

but sometimes when i'm really bored i google independant local news sites

cbc newsworld is pimp though

5 am and i'm still awake, WTF?
bey.
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Franz Schubert
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Post by Franz Schubert »

iohkus wrote:since we're on the topic of country vs. country lets have some more fun k?

Turkey vs. Iran?
Pakistan vs. India?
Georgia vs. Armenia (lol)
and how bout Finland vs. Sweden for good measure
How about:

United States and Israel vs. Everyone Else? Oh wait, that's already happening.
Last edited by Franz Schubert on Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Menno »

Franz_Schubert wrote:
iohkus wrote:since we're on the topic of country vs. country lets have some more fun k?

Turkey vs. Iran?
Pakistan vs. India?
Georgia vs. Armenia (lol)
and how bout Finland vs. Sweden for good measure
How about:

United Stats and Israel vs. Everyone Else? Oh wait, that's already happening.
Don't forget the UK and Australia!
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Franz Schubert
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Post by Franz Schubert »

Menno, the second quote in your sig is hilarious, but the first one is just hater bs. The second one is clever though, and funny on several levels.
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Post by Grey Fil »

A little detail that somehow seems to be escaping is that the government of Taiwan is not the government of Taiwan. It is the "Republic of China" or ROC, it is the descendant of the government of China before they where overtrhown by the commies. One might even argue that they are the only legitimate government of China.

1-They are the only government elected DEMOCRATICALLY by chinese people.

2- They are political descendants of the people who finished the imperial government, founded a republic and elected a government.

3-They still claim to be the only legitimate government of China.

The problem like always is money, since China (the PRC) begun growing in economic importance governments all over the world begun recognizing them as the legitimate government of China. And yes the USA did it again, when supporting Chiang Kai Chek´s (the republican) became to expensive they just cut the money flow. CKC who was by then in a bad situation at several levels (another dictator without support) sunk like a rock and fled to Taiwan with all the money and treasures of China.
At the beggining the USA still recognized the ROC as the legitimate government of China but after a few years mainland china (aka Commies) begun gaining importance and the US (and many other countries) recognized them instead of the guys in Taiwan who where actually democratizing fast.

What is happening now is that some people (many I think) want to go realistic and stop claiming sovereignety over China, and claim only sovereignety over what they have Taiwan, and become the "Republic of Taiwan".

China´s (PRC) problem is basically a problem of nationalism. Many people in China have been heavily indoctrinated with patriotic BS, but the main thing is that the government has always associated it with the party. Being against the party is unpatriotic because the party is the nation. The bad part is that if they admit the separation of Taiwan (wich they claim is a rebel province) then they themselves are unpatriotic and loose authority. Throw in a few old guard dudes still very influential and very hardliners and you can see a problem boiling.

As far as the military problem goes, I can ad to what Menno said that many military analists believe that the best solution for China would not be a direct invasion of Taiwan but the destruction of Taiwan´s economic and industrial centers with missiles. It would be quick, they would have minimal losses and the repercutions at the international level would be much softer. Taiwan would be on it´s knees forever and quickly (in a few decades) economicaly absorbed by the mainland.
Carpe jugulum.
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Post by Franz Schubert »

Grey Fil wrote:A little detail that somehow seems to be escaping is that the government of Taiwan is not the government of Taiwan. It is the "Republic of China" or ROC, it is the descendant of the government of China before they where overtrhown by the commies. One might even argue that they are the only legitimate government of China.

1-They are the only government elected DEMOCRATICALLY by chinese people.

2- They are political descendants of the people who finished the imperial government, founded a republic and elected a government.

3-They still claim to be the only legitimate government of China.

The problem like always is money, since China (the PRC) begun growing in economic importance governments all over the world begun recognizing them as the legitimate government of China. And yes the USA did it again, when supporting Chiang Kai Chek´s (the republican) became to expensive they just cut the money flow. CKC who was by then in a bad situation at several levels (another dictator without support) sunk like a rock and fled to Taiwan with all the money and treasures of China.
At the beggining the USA still recognized the ROC as the legitimate government of China but after a few years mainland china (aka Commies) begun gaining importance and the US (and many other countries) recognized them instead of the guys in Taiwan who where actually democratizing fast.

What is happening now is that some people (many I think) want to go realistic and stop claiming sovereignety over China, and claim only sovereignety over what they have Taiwan, and become the "Republic of Taiwan".

China´s (PRC) problem is basically a problem of nationalism. Many people in China have been heavily indoctrinated with patriotic BS, but the main thing is that the government has always associated it with the party. Being against the party is unpatriotic because the party is the nation. The bad part is that if they admit the separation of Taiwan (wich they claim is a rebel province) then they themselves are unpatriotic and loose authority. Throw in a few old guard dudes still very influential and very hardliners and you can see a problem boiling.

As far as the military problem goes, I can ad to what Menno said that many military analists believe that the best solution for China would not be a direct invasion of Taiwan but the destruction of Taiwan´s economic and industrial centers with missiles. It would be quick, they would have minimal losses and the repercutions at the international level would be much softer. Taiwan would be on it´s knees forever and quickly (in a few decades) economicaly absorbed by the mainland.
There's what you said. Here's what I heard:

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
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Post by Brother None »

The problem with Taiwan, I think, is the general old problem of "when is a claim for sovereignty" actually valid?

You'll notice a trend throughout history, where a claim of sovereignty is actually acknowledged depending on a number of things. One of these is to what level the fledgling state can stand up to the dominant state, a topic that Menno treated well. It doesn't end there, though, two equally big factors lie in how much the dominant state is willing to let go of the newfound nation and how much international pressure there is to do so.

A large number of European states were only born because the dominant state chose to let them go. This was true of the odd-dozen Eastern European nations after the Russian revolution (after the Tsar abdicated, the Soviets and Doema roughly agreed on the fact that these claims of independancy were valid. The Bolshewiks were at that point in no positions to argue), which were later reclaimed in the Russian civil war. This was true again of these same nations after the collapse of the SU. Another example is Belgium segregating from the Netherlands, or Portugal from Catalan.

It's about drawing a line in the sand, basically. The new-democratic state of Russia decided to let a vast number of countries go free, but they choose to hold on the Tsjezna and now they have to continue to do so. If they let it go, more people will rebel and claim their own lands (the areas disputed between Japan and Russia and China and Russia for one, but Tsjezna's neighbour too).

China's stuck in the same position. China's holding a lot of land that is essentially "not theirs". The disputed borders of India are an example of this (Kashmir, in particular), Kazakhstan may start to sputter again after their previous border-treaty, same goes for Kyrgyzstan, the Paracel islands are an obvious problem, and the aformentioned disputed islands (between Russia and China).

If they let go of Taiwan, what's next? Holland didn't have this problem when Belgium rebelled, because it wasn't holding any non-Dutch lands (apart from arguably Friesland).

China has enough political and economic motives to hang on to Taiwan for dear life, and I don't think Taiwan has enough motives to object heavily enough. If we're lucky, it'll end peacefully, it certainly seems to be the path Taiwan is pursuing, but sadly, revolutions of roses are rare (yay Georgia!)

As for the international community. Heh. Little hope there. If they're gonna allow Russia to do what they're doing to Tzejna, or Israel to do what they're doing to Palestine, do you really think they're gonna try and stop China?

No, hope on that one, if there is any hope, lies in support from the US, but I don't think that's very forthcoming for a number of obvious reasons. Not only is the US currently stretched very, VERY thin, but as Menno mentioned, it's not about to oppose China too much (And the Korean problem isn't the only reason for this either. The US is currently China's biggest export partner (22%?), but only has 10% of China's import, this is not a favourable position)

No, Taiwan's independance is not forthcoming. They're facing one of the world's most powerful countries with no real backing from the other great powers in sight. As far as I know, there's no historical precedent of someone pulling this off (the US revolution had the backing of the French (which, in turn caused the French revolution), 'member?) and I don't see Taiwan doing it.
iohkus wrote:Pakistan vs. India?
Nuklear terrrouble!

India vs Pakistan is an accident just begging to happen, a powderkeg waiting to go off. And when it does, it won't be pretty. Methinks the international community is not giving enough attention to these problems.
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Post by S4ur0n27 »

The Internationnal Community has got it's hand full of middle-west shit. They are still arguing over Saddam and Ben's hideouts.

And even if they say something nobody listens to them : Israel/Palestin, USA/Irak, Russia/Tchetchenia.....


Btw Kharn, what's that quote in your sig?
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Post by Brother None »

s4ur0n27 wrote:Btw Kharn, what's that quote in your sig?
It's from Akira Kurosawa's "Yojimbo" (the movie which was the basis for both For a Fistful of Dollars and Last Man Standing), from the scene where Yojimbo first faces of with the bandits.
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Post by Franz Schubert »

Kharn wrote:India vs Pakistan is an accident just begging to happen, a powderkeg waiting to go off.
Oh, do more! Wait, here's one: A ketchup bottle waiting to slop on someone's burger! How about, it's a cumulus cloud just waiting to precipitate! It's a camel just begging for that one last straw? It's a loaded firearm stored in a house with small children! Ok I'm done.
Kashluk

Post by Kashluk »

Yea, i be proud yo. In fact we invented the term "molotov's cocktail" (not the weapon, the name). Filling a glass bottle with a flammable mixture of fuel and/or alcohol (not sure what exactly) and a piece of cloth on the top (later on more improved ignition systems) was done in large quantities in former liquor factories. The name "molotov's cocktail" came from an (urban?) legend, where some brave soldier whatever grabbed a few of those bottles and told his friends: "I'm going to offer Molotov (Soviet Union's foreign minister at that time, I believe) a few cocktails." and went on to burn a few tanks. In fact, when the Soviets saw the logo of the liquor factory (Koskenkorva) in the remaining corks of the exploded cocktails, they immediately bombed the factory somewhere in Northern-Finland I think.

Well, enough of that crap.

Wasn't Taiwan "born" during the revolution? I mean, the loosers, capitalists, whatever you call them, fled to the island and were banished from the mainland China for forever or something? And during the years they've been barking at each other and fighting small-scale wars from time to time? Or am I totally wrong about this?

The thing is that they are all the same people. Of course they are different, such as people from New York are different from people of Los Angeles. Their governements and founding fathers simply had different ideals and they've crafted this "race thing" themselves.

I don't remember where I saw/read it, but in that thingy there were these party metal collectors... They were people with the communist party's logos all over them and they went from door to door to collect iron, lead, copper and steel. People gave everything they had and these collectors thanked them: "Oh thank thee so much, this fork you gave shall be melted and become three bullets... Three bullets fired at our eternal enemy Taiwan!"

And anyways, it seems China is slowly adapting capitalist ways and within a few decades (with this same speed of progress) I wouldn't see any reason why Taiwan and China couldn't join peacefully? Alas, there is no "our people" and "your people" - they're off the same nation, the only differences are political and economical views, am I correct?

Sure there's this whole legacy of them killing each other, China banishing the opposers of the revolution to the island etc. But people forget. Especially when not under constant communism propaganda, but in free (both economically and politically) enviroment.

Hong Kong's gone capitalized already, so why not the rest of China? It has become a huge market for computers, mobile phones and such already and I think that "once they've popped, they can't stop".
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Post by MurPHy »

and I think that "once they've popped, they can't stop".
That is wrong. Very wrong. *Chuckle*

As for the whole china-taiwan thing, it'll probably end in the near future (ie 10+ yrs). Peacefully or not is anybody's guess. Let's just hope no nuclear weapons are involved in any way, shape, or form.
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Post by Kashluk »

Well it was the best metaphora for becoming capitalist I could come up with right now :)
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Post by atoga »

Megatron wrote:What's the point in having nukes if you're not going to use them?
Haven't you seen Dr. Strangelove, Megatron?
suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. suddenly somebody will say like 'plate' or 'shrimp' or 'plate of shrimp', out of the blue, no explanation.
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Post by Franz Schubert »

I think capitalism can exist (thrive in fact) within a tightly regulated economy.
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Post by atoga »

Shit yes it can. The problem is creating a tightly regulated economy (which ain't gonna happen). Socialism is a lot happier and simpler, so why not just go that way?

Or do you have a better idea, political scientist Schubert?
suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. suddenly somebody will say like 'plate' or 'shrimp' or 'plate of shrimp', out of the blue, no explanation.
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Post by Franz Schubert »

Well, nothing constructive, no, but I can tell you that socialism is crap because there isn't really any motivation for people to become entrepreneureus (which make the world go 'round, along with oil). After all, why bust your butt when you can slack off and still get an apartment and a meal each day?

Socialism would work if there weren't any humans involved.
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Post by atoga »

Are you kidding? Socialism is your friend. It kills entrepreneurs, sure, but it's not like innovation is removed, since the government does everything within its power to encourage it. Plus, it has all the bells and whistles of capitalism, so the people are kept happy.

And besides, innovation is crushed by modern capitalism. Big corporations, unable to take uncalculated risks, refuse to innovate. I guess it all adds up to socialism > capitalism.
suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. suddenly somebody will say like 'plate' or 'shrimp' or 'plate of shrimp', out of the blue, no explanation.
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Post by Franz Schubert »

The only "bell and whistle" of capitalism is the way it spurns people to try to claw their way to the top. A strong economy needs that kind of extrinsic drive, otherwise people are just going to sit on their asses and do the bare minimum.

If it weren't for capitalism Microsoft wouldn't exist, you wouldn't be using the fine *cough* ok, compatibility-friendly OS you are on right now. Instead it would be one of many possible "competitors" versions which would be piss-poor and you wouldn't even know the difference.

And speaking of Microsoft, why is everyone always on their case? I constantly hear people bitching about Windows or Word or IE... Is it because they view MS as a big scary entity and fear its power? Perhaps they resent the monopoly, but why? For me, their monopoly has been nothing but good for the consumer. Sure, maybe for the competitors they squelched (Remember Claris Works?) it's not so great, but for the consumer it's great, because everything is compatible. I can take my .doc files over to my friends house and view them on his macintosh, because of the monopoly. Ok I'm done.
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