China vs. Taiwan

[MurPHy]

And speaking of Microsoft, why is everyone always on their case? I constantly hear people bitching about Windows or Word or IE... Is it because they view MS as a big scary entity and fear its power? Perhaps they resent the monopoly, but why? For me, their monopoly has been nothing but good for the consumer. Sure, maybe for the competitors they squelched (Remember Claris Works?) it's not so great, but for the consumer it's great, because everything is compatible. I can take my .doc files over to my friends house and view them on his macintosh, because of the monopoly. Ok I'm done.

Everyone isn't on their case per se, but more of mindful of their power in the industry (remember Standard Oil?). Also without competitors, Microshit could stop updating their software and charge ridiculous prices (prices are already ridiculous, but I'm talking more of 4-500 buck for a copy of WinXP). This would be entirely feasible if they had complete control of the PC OS market (ie no alternatives - Apple, Linux etc).

Also, standardization is a good thing for the PC industry, but only if it is decided upon by an independent standards board that has input from all major players in the PC industry- not some proprietary standard that MS pulls out of its ass one day. If all such decisions were made by MS, they could use the familiar .doc extension one day, and throw a whole 'nother, completely different one at you the next. In the process of purchasing new, compatible software, MS would make a boatload of cash. Good for them, bad for you.

[S4ur0n27]

Wasn't Taiwan "born" during the revolution?

Actually Taiwan was born a long while ago, I wrote a report on Taiwan a couple years ago. If I remember correctly, China started inhabiting Taiwan (then known as Formosa) around year 1000 and later it was possessed by Holland. In 1600, the Ming dynasty got kicked out of China by the Mandchus, but Ming's son (Zheng Chenddon, AKA Koxinga) evaded and became a pirate. He had a whole army of pirate and kicked the dutch out of Taiwan and fought against the Mandchus. He and 2 of his son followed and instituted Ming laws and traditions, so there is actually a difference between China and Taiwan. His "dynasty" lasted till the beginning of 1700 I believed, altho it was short, Taiwanese people were always loyal to the Mings.

For me, their monopoly has been nothing but good for the consumer.

why do you think Windows is so buggy? Because MS don't need to fix it, few people bother to use Linux. If there was REAL competitiors, MS would fix their shit so quickly to sell more.

If indeed MS had the real monopoly of OSs it would be even worse, they could slow down the progrss to 0, and once they think they can't cap more money on their program, BAM, a new onw, slightly better. Competition brings the progress and innovation.

[Kashluk]

Wasn't Taiwan "born" during the revolution?

(... smart explination ...)

Ach, it seems I've been spewing total bullshit once again. Thank you for correcting me. But was the part about sending the revolution opposers to Taiwan correct? IIRC, the right-winged leader who opposed Mao fled to the island. Or was that totally wrong as well?

For me, their monopoly has been nothing but good for the consumer.

Anyone who has studied marketing at some point of his life, knows that monopoly sucks compared to perfect competition. It happens under all circumstances, in every possible industry.

In perfect competition, supply and demand meet together in the optimal point, where there is no use to make any surplus products and where the price is low enough for the consumers to buy it enough.

In monopoly, on the other hand, the big fat corporation makes smaller quantities of the product but demands a higher price for it. If I had the skills to draw a pciture of it, you would see a triangle left between Supply&Demand's optimal point and those points where monopoly's supply meets with the demand and the higher price.

That triangle is "the waste triangle", which means the amount of lost welfare.

ALWAYS : free market/competition > monopoly !

[S4ur0n27]

Ach, it seems I've been spewing total bullshit once again. Thank you for correcting me. But was the part about sending the revolution opposers to Taiwan correct? IIRC, the right-winged leader who opposed Mao fled to the island. Or was that totally wrong as well?

Yea you were right about this. Lot of other stuff happened too, ie the war with the Japanese.

[Kashluk]

Yeah, that one... The chinese got their butts kicked on that one. Armored cars > cavalry any time, babe

Though it didn't last for long, it tore deep wounds between those two nations as well. I'm not sure about the japanese, like I said: in democracies with free economy people forget fast, but at least the chinese are still mad at the japs about what happened in the 30's.

[Sol Invictus]

A little detail that somehow seems to be escaping is that the government of Taiwan is not the government of Taiwan. It is the "Republic of China" or ROC, it is the descendant of the government of China before they where overtrhown by the commies. One might even argue that they are the only legitimate government of China.

Analysis: You are a pathetic meatbag.

Clarification: The "government" of Taiwan is utterly corrupt. I know what your pathetic pro-American, pro-capitalist schools are teaching you, and it should be clarified that their stance is obviously biased, and mostly assuredly incorrect.

The Guomindang epitomizes corruption, and Chiang Kai Shek was nothing more than a thug with too much power in his hands. History proves me right.

1-They are the only government elected DEMOCRATICALLY by chinese people.

Response: Votes are made through cash and those who drop out of the race often do so because they are either bribed or threatened by the Triads.

Statement: Mainland China (PROC) too has democratic elections and voting is most definitely a part of that. Why you needed to point out the 'democratic' system of Taiwan is anyone's guess.

2- They are political descendants of the people who finished the imperial government, founded a republic and elected a government.

Extrapolation: They are nothing more than triads. A puppet government funded by Russian and American investors with the interest of taking over Manchuria (now known as China).

3-They still claim to be the only legitimate government of China.

Observation: Their claim is contradicted by the fact that a nation belongs to the people, and not to the government.

China´s (PRC) problem is basically a problem of nationalism. Many people in China have been heavily indoctrinated with patriotic BS, but the main thing is that the government has always associated it with the party. Being against the party is unpatriotic because the party is the nation. The bad part is that if they admit the separation of Taiwan (wich they claim is a rebel province) then they themselves are unpatriotic and loose authority. Throw in a few old guard dudes still very influential and very hardliners and you can see a problem boiling.

Interpretation: "I am a pathetic, mindless meatbag who believes everything that I am thought in pro-American bullshit school."

[S4ur0n27]

Japan is one of the most close-minded, racist and nationalist country, I'm pretty sure they do remember.

And to any American : Don't think they'll forget Nagasaki or Hiroshima that fast.

PS.: I'm not racist! And I respect Japan and it's people. Japanese old culture fascinate me in fact.

PS2.: Exit is kewl!

[Doyle]

I love how much Exitium can extrapolate about America, American schools, and Gray Fil's education from a single post. It's too bad that's not what he intended to be humorous.

[Kashluk]

Well japanese are quite... Well, narrow-minded. I know, I know, this is the part when people start reminding me about tentacle rapes and whatever, but that is not the point.

I mean you don't want to be black in Tokyo. You'll get your butt kicked in a dark alley in no time. Nor do you want to stick out of the mass, the more like everyone else you are, the better.

The modern Japan sucks compared to ancient, medieval era Japan in my opinion. But then again, the narrow-mindedness of today has it's roots in that tight militaristic government.

[S4ur0n27]

That tight militaristic era involved honor and nobility and courage and stuff. Modern Japan tries to be that way but at same time they sell tentacle raping films, and weird stuff. They missed the point, IMHO. Read some Yukio Mishima, it's good and he talks about the japan of the 20e century.

[Sol Invictus]

The only "bell and whistle" of capitalism is the way it spurns people to try to claw their way to the top. A strong economy needs that kind of extrinsic drive, otherwise people are just going to sit on their asses and do the bare minimum.

Another pathetic meatbag in my midst. Would somebody please bring out the flamethrower already!

Observation: Nationalism is just as powerful a drive as capitalism, if not more. Simply observe the efforts made by Chinese developers and you will see that most of them do it out of love for their games, and not because some pathetic meatbag of a producer decided it would be profitable to make yet another Lord of the Rings spinoff title to cash in on the movie.

If it weren't for capitalism Microsoft wouldn't exist, you wouldn't be using the fine *cough* ok, compatibility-friendly OS you are on right now. Instead it would be one of many possible "competitors" versions which would be piss-poor and you wouldn't even know the difference.

Response: We will never know now will be?

And speaking of Microsoft, why is everyone always on their case? I constantly hear people bitching about Windows or Word or IE... Is it because they view MS as a big scary entity and fear its power? Perhaps they resent the monopoly, but why? For me, their monopoly has been nothing but good for the consumer. Sure, maybe for the competitors they squelched (Remember Claris Works?) it's not so great, but for the consumer it's great, because everything is compatible. I can take my .doc files over to my friends house and view them on his macintosh, because of the monopoly. Ok I'm done.

Allow me to explain what a monopoly is to you, and you will perhaps -try- to understand at the very least what this means.

Analogy: Assume that I run a restaurant. I serve many customers, but I also have many competitors.

I have a little more money than one of my competitors so I buy his store in order to stop him from competing with him, and make money from his business.

I repeat this process and find that I have amassed the majority of restaurants. The remaining restaurants who refuse to sell their companies to me are choked by my LOWER PRICES (as I can afford to reduce my prices without taking a loss due to my immense holdings) and eventually go bankrupt.

I now rule the market of restaurants and nobody even dares to challenge me because they simply do not have the money to do so, or will simply be bought out sooner or later.

Certainly this seems like a great benefit to the consumer - having low, low prices and all that. However, what happens when there are no more competitors? I increase the prices tenfold and you can't do a single thing to stop me! You have no one else to choose from - I am your only supplier of restaurant food.

This is monopoly at its most basic.

Here's the fun part: A lot of people decide that eating out is too costly so they decide to take up cooking and buy food straight from the vendors.

To circumvent this, I buy out the food suppliers with my immense amount of wealth and all of the vendors have to purchase their goods from me - that means you too. Either way, I make a killing and should I ever decide to raise the prices on supplies, I will.

Guess what? I do! Now you can't even afford to buy food. HOWEVER, all of my taking over the food business has opened up quite a few job opportunities - that is, millions of job opportunities. In order to eat, you need money, and to get money, you need to work. What better place to work than at MY RESTAURANT?

That's right, you work for me, and your payment is food.

Result: Congratulations, meatbag, you are now my slave.

[voodooc]

Many people in China have been heavily indoctrinated with patriotic BS, but the main thing is that the government has always associated it with the party. Being against the party is unpatriotic because the party is the nation.

Thank god there's none of that in the United States.

:shock:

vc

[Menno]

Another pathetic meatbag in my midst. Would somebody please bring out the flamethrower already!

Observation: Nationalism is just as powerful a drive as capitalism, if not more. Simply observe the efforts made by Chinese developers and you will see that most of them do it out of love for their games, and not because some pathetic meatbag of a producer decided it would be profitable to make yet another Lord of the Rings spinoff title to cash in on the movie.

Haha, why are you talking like HK-47? Anyway, I doubt nationalism is the reason that Chinese developers put alot of work into their games (if they even do that). Game developing, for the most part, is an art. And just how it is with everything in life, there are some who are good at what they do, and some that aren't. Sure, Fallout:BOS is a piece of marketing shit, but what about the original Fallout, a game by most accounts would most likely have not been made? It's up to the artist (in this case developer) to make a game good. I mean I doubt a developer in China is making a game for China's nationalistic pride; he just wants to put alot of effort into making his game good, since it's a symbol of his work.

Thank god there's none of that in the United States.

Yeah, the United States is so patriotic [sarcasm]. Good luck finding a protest going on in the country (in a sizeable amount) that's FOR anything the US does. If you attend school wearing a T-Shirt that supports controversial US policies (lets say "I'm for the war in Iraq!" in this case), you're suspended for weeks and sent home from school. However, if you wear a shirt that disagrees with the US (let's say "The United States is an Evil Imperial Empire that kills for Oil!" in this case) you're applauded by the hippy teachers for your omniscience. When I went to school, in pretty much all of my history classes I was taught how evil the United States was and is; how they massacred the Native Americans, how they used "treachery" to advance their position on the global stage, how the US was by far the greater of evils during the Cold War, etc. In the schools I've been in, very rarely have we ever discussed how "good" America is, instead America's faults/mistakes have been drilled into student's heads. There isn't anything like "COMMUNISM IZ GREAT!! MAO ZE DONG iS YoUR aLL KNOWING FATHER!!!! He nEv3r maKes MistaKes!! DoN't U daRE QuesTion HiM!!!" Instead we're taught how our Founding Fathers had trysts with slaves, how Sam Adams was a psychotic radical, how George Washington turned his back on the French, and how Ben Franklin (in his late 70's and 80's) used to sauna with ladies in the nude.

Maybe you mean how the US media is so patriotic, trying to inspire us to go along with government policies? Hmm, well no-go there either. Turn on the TV and look at every major news network, 90% of the time they're exposing corruption in government or how evil the US is (through the use of nicer words of course). Good luck getting a sizeable amount of people to pledge to the US flag (which probably only occurs at sport events), let alone go along with any of it's policies. I'd venture to say many citizens don't even know the Star Spangled Banner. Come to NYC, and you'll see that many people have Puerto Rican flags, Domincan flags, etc waving from the antennae of their car, but you'll be hard-pressed to find a US flag. The fact of the matter is that the United States is a very self-critical nation, always willing to fall back upon its mistakes/flaws instead of what it has accomplished, feeding it's self-defeat mentality.

America, at least with this current generation, is hardly patriotic. The only places where you'll find a sizeable amount of patriotism is at military bases and small towns, especially in the southeast.

Menno, the second quote in your sig is hilarious, but the first one is just hater bs. The second one is clever though, and funny on several levels.

Haha, wait, are you saying it's ok for a German Field Marshal to have disdain for the French, but not a US General? Anyway, Patton was for the most part a racist, so he had disdain for everyone, let alone the French. But during WWII, I would have agreed with him on that quote. He also had an odd habit of calling people "You Magnificent Bastard!"

[MurPHy]

Everything you said about patriotism in the US is true, Menno. Sad, huh? I tell ya, I was born in the wrong generation. The current one is a sad bunch. It's mostly a bunch of hippies, fags, communists, and did I mention hippies? I did? Well I need to again, as most of the country seems to be full of leftist, traitorous douchebags. Sad.

Remember the traitor who was found fighting against us in Afghanistan? If this were the '50s, he would have been immediately shot and that would be it. No big hoopla about it from the press (well, nothing involving portraying him in a good light of any kind), which, I might add, is made up of the same scum that Hollywood has been infested with since the early '20s or '30s. Traitors.

Remember Ethel and Gene Rosenberg? They were killed. Yup, they gave the Russkies information about the H-bomb. And I fully support our government for it. It's one of the few good things that they have done in a good long while. Ah, days gone by, I miss them so....*




*Please note that everything stated above is from memory and from my opinions. As such, on the case of historical fact, I may have gotten a few facts wrong. If you want to think that I'm just talking out of my ass, then go right ahead.

[Sol Invictus]

I mean I doubt a developer in China is making a game for China's nationalistic pride; he just wants to put alot of effort into making his game good, since it's a symbol of his work.

Well that's the thing about the Chinese, Korean and Japanese cultures. Everything you do is a symbol of your work, your pride and joy. A very heavy emphasis is placed on the sense of pride. That's not to say that white meatbags don't share this sense of pride - it's just that there's a lot less emphasis on this sort of thing in the West and people who often hold on to this ideal are regarded as 'foolish' for not embracing the value of the dollar.

In these Oriental cultures, one's pride is often seen as an extention of one's greatness as a nation, and as a race. Yeah, I admit I feel that way about the things I do, too. I think it's probably genetic, because I don't remember my parents or anyone else ever going on about stuff like this to me. It's just something that's intrinsic, in-born into your very flesh as a Chinese, Korean or Japanese.

edit:
Clarification: I'll try not to make a generalization about Orientals because, you know, there's plenty of pathetic meatbags out there regardless of their race or culture - though I could argue that these meatbags lack culture.

[Megatron]

is meatbag meant to be an insult or something? You use it too much or something.

I'm not too bothered about western or eastern culture. It's full of shitty ugly art and crappy morals that take things to seriously. The right way is MARTIAN LAW! Anyway, oriental people consist of two races. Funny-small-asian dude who smiles a lot and wears glasses, or arrogant asshole who'd be french anywhere else.

Damn french.

[Menno]

Everything you said about patriotism in the US is true, Menno. Sad, huh? I tell ya, I was born in the wrong generation. The current one is a sad bunch. It's mostly a bunch of hippies, fags, communists, and did I mention hippies? I did? Well I need to again, as most of the country seems to be full of leftist, traitorous douchebags. Sad.

Sad but true. Half of my high school history teachers were draft dodgers during the Vietnam era, attending college to avoid being conscripted. They would always insert snide or unfounded remarks and try to construe them as fact. For example, how the US purposely let Pearl Harbor be attacked to involve themselves in WWII, because the Carriers weren't present. I was lucky that I had a WWII vet as my history teacher for two terms, because he always gave an unbiased view of how things went down. Sure, he went over the things the US did wrong, but also what they did right. History, at least how it's taught now in some schools in NYC, is more about a list of mistakes the US has done since it's creation. When you examine history, especially a nation's history, it's important to recognize it's achievements as well as its flaws/mistakes; and currently schools skew too far towards the latter.

On a seperate note, I so wish I was back in Afghanistan now, because I really want to say something to Hillary Clinton.

Remember the traitor who was found fighting against us in Afghanistan? If this were the '50s, he would have been immediately shot and that would be it. No big hoopla about it from the press (well, nothing involving portraying him in a good light of any kind), which, I might add, is made up of the same scum that Hollywood has been infested with since the early '20s or '30s. Traitors.

Yeah, that John Walker Lindh (spelling?) guy. I remember a quote of his: "had I realized then what I know now ... I would never would have joined them." Haha, no shit sherlock. I agree with what you're saying also, how the media and general population feeling sympathy with him. Everyone gets too many slaps on the wrist and not enough discipline nowadays...well unless you're black or hispanic.

[Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD]

is meatbag meant to be an insult or something? You use it too much or something.

I'm not too bothered about western or eastern culture. It's full of shitty ugly art and crappy morals that take things to seriously. The right way is MARTIAN LAW! Anyway, oriental people consist of two races. Funny-small-asian dude who smiles a lot and wears glasses, or arrogant asshole who'd be french anywhere else.

Damn french.

you forgot tenticles.

[Grey Fil]

Thank you Lord Exitium for your kind words and enlightened comments.

It is true that Chiang was for the most part a corrupt dictator, but what do you call the leadership of the PRC?

The PRC has elections, but they are not secret, the candidates are the ones selected by the party and until recently there was only one candidate for each position, how more "democratic" can it be?

The ROC has a multyparty system with regular elections, based on the one man one vote system, they have separation of powers and in recent years diferent parties have won elections. The PRC has ONE party who controls everything from the military, the judiciary and the government. You tell me wich one is more democratic.

The claim that a nation belongs to the people not to the government is obviously true, but the government of the PRC belongs to the Communist party like everything else. In a state where people have no direct vote, I think that they are the ones with the least legitimacy.

I have never been in an american skool nor in a pro american one. In fact I was educated in portuguese and german schools. But I know of people who have been educated in PRC funded schools and they are rightyously educated. Some things that these people tell me are as follows:

-The first humans where chinese.
-China invented the first writen language.
-China was the first nation to develop agriculture.
-China is the most civilized nation in the world and most of the technical achievments of the westerners were copied and developed from China.
-China will rule the world and everybody will have to speak mandarin chinese.
-The Genghis Kan empire was a chinese empire and china has therefore the historical right to rule these lands again.
-The Japanese where defeated by the Chinese in WW2, and the Americans where oportunists taken advantage of the achievements of the Chinese Communist party. And the British wherent even involved in it.

I personally would consider these as examples of an exemplary and non tendencious education (sarcasm).

[Kashluk]

That thing you mentioned about Pearl Harbor there, Menno...

I saw this British document, which described how the US navy had gained information of the upcoming attack to the naval base and decided to withdraw all the important warships on to some exercise far away from Pearl Harbor. So, that when the japs attack they would have a reason to join the war but they wouldn't have lost any important ships. I think this was on Discovery.

Is it total bullshit? I mean most of the stuff that comes from Discovery is highly patriotic, things describing the Gulf War, WTC towers etc. so this one caught my eye.