China vs. Taiwan

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Post by Menno »

Kashluk wrote:That thing you mentioned about Pearl Harbor there, Menno...

I saw this British document, which described how the US navy had gained information of the upcoming attack to the naval base and decided to withdraw all the important warships on to some exercise far away from Pearl Harbor. So, that when the japs attack they would have a reason to join the war but they wouldn't have lost any important ships. I think this was on Discovery.

Is it total bullshit? I mean most of the stuff that comes from Discovery is highly patriotic, things describing the Gulf War, WTC towers etc. so this one caught my eye.
It's total bullshit. The US did prepare for an impending attack, though they believed the target would be Singapore. The United States believed Japan would attack Singapore, forcing the US to declare war (a war in which would have been politically unpopular given the US population's stance in isolationism, and since they weren't directly attacked) and come to the aid of the British colony. They were under the impression that Japan was banking on a Pacific version of a "Belgian rescue" (where the French and British forces rushed in after Germany invaded Belgium, in which Germany waited several days to tighten the noose, then launched an attack slashing behind the Allied lines and raced through France, cutting the Allied forces off and leading to their annhilation).

Anyway, that's what most of the US high command was banking on, and at the time it was completely plausible. There were preliminary signs/movements that were picked up by Radar operators, but they were pushed aside as diversionary tactics from the real target...Singapore. Of course, Japan's target wasn't Singapore but instead Pearl Harbor, and we know how that all went down. What sparked the whole conspiracy theory of the US intentionally allowing their Pacific Fleet to be destroyed was over the fact that three Aircraft Carriers (you could say the most important naval vessels at that time) were not present at Pearl Harbor the day of the attack.

However, this theory has been debunked on many occassions. Of the three Aircraft Carriers that were missing that day, the Saratoga was in overhaul on the west coast, the Lexington was delivering aircraft to Midway, and the Enterprise was on a similiar mission to Wake island. So they weren't conducting some secret manuever to be away at the day of the attack. This theory is also ridiculous because it resulted in virtually the entire loss of their Pacific Fleet. After the bombing of Pearl Harbor, US Navy campaigns were extremely limited in scope, and it took a major gamble at Midway, where 3 US carriers and a variety of ships met a much larger Japanese force (with over 8 carriers and even more war vessels) and defeated it, changing the tide in the Pacific. The victory, aside from the carrier pilots guts and bravery, was for the most part complete luck for the United States. The victory was so dependent upon luck and bravery, that for many years students at the Naval War Academy in Rhode Island could not replicate a US victory at the Battle of Midway (though I'm not sure if that record still stands).

This theory that the United States would let its Pacific Fleet be virtually completely decimated, as well as their primary naval base, is just bizzare in logic. To top that off, Singapore fell a day later to the Japanese (I'm pretty sure the British didn't want to lose their garrison at the colony just to get the US involved in a war). To say that the US purposely allowed it's fleet to be scuttled is like going into a fight with your legs and one arm chopped off. The US didn't want to go to war with Japan, at least at that point. They instead wanted to get involved with the war in Europe; the bombing of Pearl Harbor was the last thing they wanted because it brought them into a war with Japan instead of with Nazi Germany (but Hitler made his blunder soon afterwards and declared war on the US). It took a major gamble at Midway to turn the tide of the war in the Pacific, a battle in which by all accounts the US "should" not have won.
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Post by Kashluk »

... and the using of the A-bomb becomes more and more understandable :-/

( not acceptable, though )
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Post by Menno »

Kashluk wrote:... and the using of the A-bomb becomes more and more understandable :-/

( not acceptable, though )
Not acceptable to you maybe, but for the countless more Americans and Japanese that would have been killed (total estimated losses of the planned invasion of Japan, both military and civilian, numbered over ten million casualties in some estimates), sometimes you have to take the lesser of the two evils. The US would have bombed virtually all of Japan's cities prior to the land invasion (which would have resulted in a much greater amount of casualties than the Atomic Bomb), and the subsequent invasion would have been perhaps on of the biggest bloodbaths in modern warfare. Japan would have been completely decimated, and its doubtful the US would have stayed behind to help rebuild Japan after such a bloody conflict. Also keep in mind that Japan is lucky the war ended when it did, because if it lasted a week longer the Soviet Union was about to invade the northern Japanese islands (and they'd have a claim to the territory after the war was over, meaning Japan would have been part Communist, severely hindering its development). You may think the A-Bomb was the greatest evil, but it somehow saved more lives than you realize.

By the way, I could read your tiny print; try and make it smaller next time if you want to go unnoticed.
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Post by Kashluk »

I didn't mean it to be unnoticed, but left as a minor comment, that's why the small font.

Of course the A-Bomb was a better of the two evils, everyone with basic calculating capabilities can understand that. But the minds of people are still haunted with those three-eyed fishes and weird looking babies of Hiroshima & Nagasaki. A "normal" war, no matter how much worse consecuences, would've left a lesser mark in the people's minds. Though what you said about the society and rebuilding is true. It would've left Japan behind, but the psychological effect of the use of nuclear weaponry would've never existed.

I'm a blue-eyed bastard so I think that killing is wrong, even when killing a serial killer who is about to kill more people. That's why I always call "justified" killing understandable, though not acceptable.

That's just me, though, don't bother to lose your good night sleep or anything because of it :P
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Post by Menno »

Kashluk wrote:I didn't mean it to be unnoticed, but left as a minor comment, that's why the small font.

Of course the A-Bomb was a better of the two evils, everyone with basic calculating capabilities can understand that. But the minds of people are still haunted with those three-eyed fishes and weird looking babies of Hiroshima & Nagasaki. A "normal" war, no matter how much worse consecuences, would've left a lesser mark in the people's minds. Though what you said about the society and rebuilding is true. It would've left Japan behind, but the psychological effect of the use of nuclear weaponry would've never existed.

I'm a blue-eyed bastard so I think that killing is wrong, even when killing a serial killer who is about to kill more people. That's why I always call "justified" killing understandable, though not acceptable.

That's just me, though, don't bother to lose your good night sleep or anything because of it :P
You're right in the fact that the A-Bomb did cause mutations and psychological scarring, but I honestly believe the alternate route would have caused much more psychological scarring. You don't need to use an Atomic Bomb to cause psychological damage though. The Mongols devestated the regions they conquered for sometimes centuries after they left; the Japanese did it themselves to the Chinese after the rape of Nanking, in which the Chinese still resent them over. The amount of damage, not just in terms of lives, after Operation Downfall (the invasion of Japan) would have been enourmous. The Japanese would have been extremely resentful and probably unruly, and on the flip-side the Americans would have been overly-aggressive against the civilians because of what they went through to take the island, and probably would have pulled out leaving the Japanese to fend for themselves (and the Soviets were right on their doorstep). Japan would probably never be as it is today if this occurred. A bomb isn't necessary to scar someone, there's plenty of ways to do it.

If you dislike all deaths, whether it's "justified" or not, that's perfectly fine and I won't dispute that since its your opinion. But I think when you wage war, you have to be prepared for the consequences.
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Post by Kashluk »

Yes, I know that. But even if I had such a shit luck and were drafted because my country gets sucked into some war within some years, I would mourn for every fallen be it on our or the enemy's side.

War is never good, be it whatever people think. It always causes suffering. Sometimes leaders of nations just seem to run "out of ammo" for peaceful solutions.
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Post by iohkus »

Menno wrote: Turkey decimates Iran, due to their superior military force
i was expecting that, Iran's army has been on downhill since '79 when they kicked the Americans out, but they claim to be making progress again, for instance they've developed and improved north korean ballistic missile technology significantly in the last 10 years covering pretty much all of europe, they also claim to have created a dependable main battle tank based on a combination of their own remaining m-60 force and imported russian hardware...

also what's interesting to note is that in the 80s iran sold an f-14 tomcat to russia, which was cannibalized and the superior f-14 radar system apparently became the basis of their mig-31 program
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Post by Menno »

iohkus wrote:
Menno wrote: Turkey decimates Iran, due to their superior military force
i was expecting that, Iran's army has been on downhill since '79 when they kicked the Americans out, but they claim to be making progress again, for instance they've developed and improved north korean ballistic missile technology significantly in the last 10 years covering pretty much all of europe, they also claim to have created a dependable main battle tank based on a combination of their own remaining m-60 force and imported russian hardware...

also what's interesting to note is that in the 80s iran sold an f-14 tomcat to russia, which was cannibalized and the superior f-14 radar system apparently became the basis of their mig-31 program
Maybe they have made progress (I don't know too much about Iran's military capabilites except that they were sliding downhill). I do know that Turkey is, at least I think, the second-largest military in NATO. Because of their NATO ties, they are able to purchase a wide-variety of weaponary, such as M1A2 tanks and Cobra helicopters. I think they spent somewhere around $150 billion dollars in the mid-90's modernizing their military, purchasing new equipment and upgrading their older weaponary (such as the M60, converting it to have a 120mm gun). I think Turkey has the most powerful military in the Middle-Eastern region, which is why many of the fundamentalist Arab nations have tried to court it's support.

I didn't know that about the Mig-31. But tell me what good a Mig is going to do you when you got Maverick and Goose bearing down on your ass, along with Tom Skerritt and Val Kilmer as your wingmen? Fuckin' Unstoppable!!!

[plays theme: "Take me on your mighty wings tonight!"]
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Post by Kashluk »

Hm... but isn't the deal with Turkey a bit like with China? The quantity replaces quality? Even though they've been modernizing, they're still in heavy monetary trouble. Even worse now that tourism has been decreasing slowly the more and more terrorism takes place in there.

And bleh, what good are new tanks and jet fighters gonna do for you if you don't have enough bread on the table? ( The lil' hippy inside me talking :) )
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Post by Menno »

Kashluk wrote:Hm... but isn't the deal with Turkey a bit like with China? The quantity replaces quality? Even though they've been modernizing, they're still in heavy monetary trouble. Even worse now that tourism has been decreasing slowly the more and more terrorism takes place in there.

And bleh, what good are new tanks and jet fighters gonna do for you if you don't have enough bread on the table? ( The lil' hippy inside me talking :) )
Well they aren't exactly the same as China. Turkey, at least attempts, to field a modern well-balanced military (though I'm not sure how they're doing in the naval department). The operations against the Kurdish in the south of the country also drain their budget (but also keep their troops combat-ready and trained, at the expense of the Kurds of course). But remember that Turkey's government has gone through several military coups over the past few decades, and the military has a very loud voice on governmental matters, so they'll get pretty much whatever they want in the long run.
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Post by S4ur0n27 »

I can't understand all the hate toward the thinkers going on here.
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Post by atoga »

Well, personally I have no beef with microsoft, but if you want a good list of reasons to hate microsoft:

www.fuckmicrosoft.com

Conspiracy theories! Hooray.
suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. suddenly somebody will say like 'plate' or 'shrimp' or 'plate of shrimp', out of the blue, no explanation.
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Post by iohkus »

Val Kilmer and Tom Skerrit vs. Image = lose?
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Post by Kashluk »

Hm... is Su47 the jet plane with superior manuvering? I know it ain't the fastest one, but is there something really really worht mentioning about it?
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Post by S4ur0n27 »

iokhus, you forgot it's Clint Eastwood piloting this plane! Didn't you see that movie?

And my name has an uncanny ressemblance to this plane's name!
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Post by iohkus »

yeah so does mine, backwards
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Post by MurPHy »

I saw this British document, which described how the US navy had gained information of the upcoming attack to the naval base and decided to withdraw all the important warships on to some exercise far away from Pearl Harbor. So, that when the japs attack they would have a reason to join the war but they wouldn't have lost any important ships. I think this was on Discovery.

Is it total bullshit? I mean most of the stuff that comes from Discovery is highly patriotic, things describing the Gulf War, WTC towers etc. so this one caught my eye.
From what I can tell, it is. I've heard some opinions from a few different historians, and their view on it is this: 9 out of 10 say its BS. There's always that minority, however....

And I don't think that you can pin it on the Brits this time either, like WWI. Remember the Lusitainia? The Germans sank it in 1915-16, and a few Americans were killed because of it. The Brits said it was an unarmed passenger ship, but there was about 5 tons of war materiel aboard (bombs, bullets, etc), all headed for Great Britain. I heard that Winston Churchill (at the time Lord of the Royal Navy or some such thing) was involved too. At the time, Britain was hard pressed in the war, and it would have helped greatly if the US got involved too. The whole idea seems plausible, if not true.
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About this whole British documentary about American knowing about Pearl Harbor. It doesn't make sense.
Was it put by the BBC? That's bizarre. Are you sure they weren't talking about some theories that some historians had about it? Did they portray it as fact or speculation?

My history teacher lectured a bit about WWI and America's involvement.

It's been quite a while, but I'm looking through my notes and I see something about a Zimmerman note. IIRC, that note was from Nazis in Germany to Nazi sympathizers in Mexico. I'm not sure exactly, but I think it was basically orders to the Mexican nazis to convince the Mexicans to attack America. I doesn't make much sense, though.

Oh, I found the note.
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1917/zimmerman.html
Here. Apparently, the British intercepted this note and waited until Americans were more receptive, ie after the Lusitania was sunk.

I get the impression that the Brits were hurting for some allies, and understood that America could be a really nice ally. Also, it might be interesting to note that America did business with everyone, but had leanings towards Britian. Does anyone know if this was the beginnings of the Anglo-American alliance I've heard about?

I'll have to admit, alot of this stuff is from my history teacher's mouth, though, so it might have a bit of a bias, but when I heard it, it made sense. (I did read the textbook as a supplement to the course.) And I never got the impression that he was biased, he actually sounds like he worked to maintain some objectivity. But he never said the Communists were the good guys, so that would make him Pro-American, Pro-Capitalism, and Pro-Imperialist, right?
Really amazing is that he managed to make something I thought I dreaded, history, into something that's actually really interesting. I'm taking his Vietnam history class next quarter.

He's not much of a bleeding heart liberal, but he mentioned some not so pretty things that the US did in Vietnam, but also gave us the rationale that the US used to do it.

I think it's easier to detect biases when the biases are different than yours.

About the whole Asian pride in their culture bit:
This is probably digging a bit, but from what I've seen, I agree that Asians have more pride in their countries than Americans, but that's only because it's allowed and even encouraged by almost everyone for Asians to be patriotic. Actually, I've been in Korea quite a bit (I lived there for 4 to 5 years of my early childhood and visit the Korean side of my family often), and I saw fierce nationalism. I don't think I've ever seen anything of the sort here in America. Of course, I will have to admit that I was there during the World Cup, so they have been more charged than normal. But look at the whole deal with Apollo Ohno, that Olympic speed-skater. He got death threats from South Koreans. Maybe it's just that they love their athletes, but the athletes represent their country.
The sort of things I see in Korea would never happen in America. Compared to the more liberal parts of America, I'd say some Koreans are a bit racist. Not horribly badly, though. But I'm just thinking that they believe that their country is tops, and so everyone else, regardless of race isn't as good.
I remember reading about Koreans suing some Japanese, because their textbook didn't give an accurate description of what happened during one of the occupations of Korea. I get the impression that the Japanese textbook denyed anything happened. Of course, I don't really remember it all that well, but I think it a little bit of a fuss.
See, here in America, any and all atrocities committed by Americans are remembered. There's a very liberal, progressive view in American universities. They believe that students should be shown the truth about their nation, although I'd say sometimes instructors can a bit carried away. The views can vary from acknowledging America's faults to shoving America's faults down your throat every time they get a chance. I've noticed a few of my english teachers seem paticularly fixated on all of the horrible things America, and European culture in general has done. Sometimes the education of America's faults can squelch the good things that America has done.

Although there's plenty of people in American that bash America, there's an equilibrium as there's quite a few people that are for America. Now, the bashers and the supporters probably all think they are patriotic; the bashers sometimes seem to think they are more patriotic. These groups never seem to get along, though.

Man, I should keep up. I wouldn't need to type up these huge posts all at once.
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Post by OnTheBounce »

Radoteur wrote:See, here in America, any and all atrocities committed by Americans are remembered. There's a very liberal, progressive view in American universities. They believe that students should be shown the truth about their nation, although I'd say sometimes instructors can a bit carried away. The views can vary from acknowledging America's faults to shoving America's faults down your throat every time they get a chance. I've noticed a few of my english teachers seem paticularly fixated on all of the horrible things America, and European culture in general has done. Sometimes the education of America's faults can squelch the good things that America has done.
One of the problems that effects US education is that the people that are teaching it today are still reeling from how they had patriotic BS shoved down their throat as kids, only to find out that the truth of the matter wasn't nearly as pretty. For instance, when I was first starting school in the mid-'70s they were still teaching the old lies about George Washington never having told a lie. Most kids in school today have probably never heard about the fable of George and having chopped down his father's cherry tree and when asked he said, "Father, I cannot tell a lie..." So, in a manner of speaking, people are getting the anti-toxin for a poison they were never exposed to in the first place.

US history today seems to come in two flavors. One would have you believe that Chris Columbus was "Manifest Destiny in tights", while the other is that he was "Hitler in a caravel". (Thank you, Robert Hughes those descriptions.) Neither of these is really true, and to subscribe to either one of them is to set aside a study of history in favor of ideoligical mythology.

For instance, can the Spaniards really be seen as culpable in the fact that they spread disease among the inhabitants of the Americas when they first landed? No, absolutely not. Since they had no real idea of how disease was spread, coupled w/their belief in disease as a method of divine punishment -- most Europeans at that time tried to pray themselves well -- and while you will see some lone voices in the wilderness that were onto the rudiments of modern pathology during the late Medieval and Early Modern Eras, these things were far from commonly known. That being said, I seriously doubt that anyone here today would like to sit down at the dinner table w/any of the Conquistadores. Most of them were complete, total, and utter bastards who took severe advantage of circumstances, which had extremely tragic consequences for a lot of people. This does mean that "los Indios" were innocent, peace-loving people, but unforunately that's how they're painted in certain circles.

Now, some of the things that were done to "los Indios" later on are a different matter, but we definitely see people striving for the same things in History that we in their clinging to religion: a quest for easy answers, along a road plainly marked out in easy boundaries marked off by figures which have more in common w/saints and demons than they ever did w/the actual persons.

OTB
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Post by Menno »

OnTheBounce wrote:So, in a manner of speaking, people are getting the anti-toxin for a poison they were never exposed to in the first place.


This is so true. Unfortunately, too much patriotism/nationalism rarely kills your country, but a self-defeatist mentality will.
US history today seems to come in two flavors. One would have you believe that Chris Columbus was "Manifest Destiny in tights", while the other is that he was "Hitler in a caravel". (Thank you, Robert Hughes those descriptions.) Neither of these is really true, and to subscribe to either one of them is to set aside a study of history in favor of ideoligical mythology.

OTB
Also very true. It kinda reminds me of something that happened with Alexander the Great. During his campaign he brought along two historians who would write about his conquests. One of them glorified everything he did, making him sound like Zeus himself. The other, a Roman, villified Alexander repeatedly, making him seem like Satan. In between these accounts lies the truth. The same has to be done with information we receive in the present.
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