EU constitution

MurPHy · Post by **MurPHy** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:13 pm

Menno said: *Good stuff about Canada becoming a province of the US*

I agree with you there Menno. Province status of some parts of Canada would mutually benefit both countries. But I suppose that my view on this is a wee bit biased, as I see any expansion of American territory a good thing. *Starts feeling patriotic*

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:14 pm

Kharn-> Link? Or the source of this info?

Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD · Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:32 pm

canadians wont willingly be indoctrinated into your bullshit US propaganda and we wont be a province of a country when we are already a country. you would have to take canada by force which would lead to multiple and many unforseen consiquences.

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:32 pm

Kashluk wrote:Kharn-> Link? Or the source of this info?

Ooof. Well, I read in my normal early morning newspaper (de Volkskrant) just a few days ago, lemme dig for a sec to see if I can find an online source on it...

I seriously can't find anything. The Volkskrant online is useless, as you have to pay for it and it's in Dutch, but I find it weird how even the EU site doesn't have any info on this. The thing surfaced after the last meeting of the ministers of finance.

Hmmm, anyone know where to find info on this? I'm stumped.

canadians wont willingly be indoctrinated into your bullshit US propaganda and we wont be a province of a country when we are already a country. you would have to take canada by force which would lead to multiple and many unforseen consiquences.

Yeah, like the Canadians surrendering en masse.

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:35 pm

Well do you still have the newspaper? I could take your word on it it's printed like that on the paper if you could dig it up and check. Though you should never blindly believe everything that's been printed, but nevertheless it's a proof of some kind.

Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD · Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:36 pm

Kharn wrote:
canadians wont willingly be indoctrinated into your bullshit US propaganda and we wont be a province of a country when we are already a country. you would have to take canada by force which would lead to multiple and many unforseen consiquences.
Yeah, like the Canadians surrendering en masse.

uh what?
canadians wouldnt all surrender. we would have a resistance and randomly kick the shit out of passing american soldiers with muskets. it wouldnt matter anyways, if america even attempted to pull it there would be so many people jumping to aid canada the americans would be fucked.

also, canadians have never retreated from a fight if i remember correctly so please fuck off and die.

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:41 pm

Oh, boy... Here we go again...

Calal · Post by **Calal** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:45 pm

Yes, divulge your sources. You made me curious about this now. 3 times is indeed a lot. Darn, I always thaught it was only dependant on the GDP of the member. I always knew there were troubles with the agricultural aspect since the same thing is happening here in Belgium. I can understand why your foreign minister would oppose to the EU constitution if you feel like being left out, certainly after all these years and even being a founding member.

Once more it goes to show that there' s still a lot of work to be done.

Edit: Crap, you guys beat me to it.

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:20 pm

Kashluk wrote:Well do you still have the newspaper? I could take your word on it it's printed like that on the paper if you could dig it up and check. Though you should never blindly believe everything that's been printed, but nevertheless it's a proof of some kind.

No, the newspaper is weeks old, and we dump our paper every week. There's another interesting article in today's, though, next to the "EU isn't going to be able to fulfill the Kyoto treaty demands" (which is hilarious):
Translated roughly;

The Netherlands nettopayer EU for 10 years
The Netherlands have been paying more than it is receiving to the EU since 1991. The total netto paid amount amounts to 27 billion, minister Zalm of Financy answers to the Chamber-questions of LPF-members Van As.
Van As asked for an overview of the yearly netto payments. He thinks this is unacceptable. Minister Zalm agrees the current situation is unnacceptable and calls the situations "skewed". Zalm does think it is logical that a prospouring land like the Netherlands pays more than it receives to the EU.
Van As also asked if the 700 million euro Zalm negotiated in 1999 as a compensation has actually been payed. According to Zalm the Netherlands paid 1 billion less in 2002 thanks to agreements reached in 1999.

--------------------------

Well, I can't be sure of what I said unless I refind that article, and I can't. I'm sure the Dutch pay more than any other EU citizen, though, but I might be wrong on the 3 times count. I'm pretty sure, though. Someone else find it.

uh what?
canadians wouldnt all surrender. we would have a resistance and randomly kick the shit out of passing american soldiers with muskets. it wouldnt matter anyways, if america even attempted to pull it there would be so many people jumping to aid canada the americans would be fucked.

also, canadians have never retreated from a fight if i remember correctly so please fuck off and die.

Joke, dude, joke. I can't believe you're even taking the subject of "America annexing Canada" this seriously.

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:30 pm

Hm... I think the yearly paid & received amount means more than overall between 1991-2003, because now that we're trying to adobt these new, "lesser" ready countries to EU all old members will lack as the receiving side. More money will be spent to the preparation and ongoing changes on these nations than spread to those already part of European Union.

Furios666 · Post by **Furios666** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:45 pm

Useless? As a EU resident I find it hard to believe it was useless. Disposing of a tiranny is never useless.

Well now, why not attack every tyrant and dictator in the world?? It's a good reason...c'mon it was useless and everybody knows it.

Anyway, it's an endless discussion so let's leave it to this and get back on topic, ok?

Recent statistics show the Dutch pay the most per head of the population. A Dutch citizens pays 3 times more than a German citizen to "EU taxes". *Three* times. Now that's a lot.

Also, we don't get the least back, but we get very little back directly, especially because our agricultural section is small compared to that of other countries. We do, of course, benifit a lot from the improved trade relations etc. The Netherlands is not exactly suffering because of the EU, but we're not getting as much out of it as some, hence the recent threat from our foreign minister to block the EU constitution.

What about us following the rules to the letter and then do it better than neccesary. No wonder we got freaking pissed when Germany and France didn't follow them at all. I think that the least we should do is ignore some rules ourselfs and keep our country runnig smoothly, which it isn't currently since the budget rules say we must cut allot in...well everything, so less money for care and for schools and for everything really. If we were to ignore those budget rules and use the money we invest in the EU in ourselfs...and then after the economy has settled we should get back.

Anyway, I believe it's time the EU invests in Holland instead of other things. And Holland shouldn't invest in stupid things like the HSL (high speed line) and the Betuweroute (cargo train line worth about 18 BILLION euros). Ahwel, Ifn't we all could rule the world, we all know better right?

Menno · Post by **Menno** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:46 pm

Haha, I'm just going to sit back and wait 'til all of the European Union countries break out into a continental war again. No Marshal Plan for you guys this time!

Just kidding though. The EU is going to have it's share of growing pains, as the United States did when it was first created. How they respond to those growing pains will determine whether or not the EU will last or collapse.

c'mon it was useless and everybody knows it.

Well I'm glad you seem to feel as if your viewpoint is always the right one. [sarcasm]

But you're right, it's a discussion best avoided.

canadians wouldnt all surrender. we would have a resistance and randomly kick the shit out of passing american soldiers with muskets.

Haha, you do know that in the chance-in-hell probability that the US were to invade Canada, that about 85% of Canada's armed forces would immediately defect to the United States? The guys in Canada's military aren't too thrilled with the Canadian government over the past several years; in fact they hate most Canadians!.

it wouldnt matter anyways, if america even attempted to pull it there would be so many people jumping to aid canada the americans would be fucked.

Yeah, those other countries would just have to find some way to bypass the US Navy; no small feat. It's pretty tough to conduct large-scale guerilla warfare though when a large majority of Canada is sparsely inhabited.

Oh well, we tried to do this peacefully. You can't say we didn't try. Our nations would be a perfect match; both of our leaders have a speech defect.

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:01 pm

Menno wrote:Haha, I'm just going to sit back and wait 'til all of the European Union countries break out into a continental war again. No Marshal Plan for you guys this time!

Far-off as that may seem, it's not that unlikely. We already started 2 world wars, why not add a third?

Europe has way too many powerful small nations constantly looking for ways to be both bigger than each other and bigger in general. The EU really is a good way to stop this age-old petty bickering.

But it's still my firm belief the Western powers (Western Europe, the US and the Asian Tigers) are on the exit, so worries about Europe being the cause of a big war are limited. Methinks Asia and South America may be the next problem.

PS: Furios, I was born in Nijmegen. I love that city.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:09 pm

Mandalorian I doubt pretty much Canadian would fight for their country : nothings unite the Canada.

And everyone hates the leaders, be it ChrÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â©tien or Martin.

And personnaly I think Quebec would ally with the USA very quickly just to have the satisfaction of kicking some western canadian arses.

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:12 pm

Menno wrote:Oh well, we tried to do this peacefully. You can't say we didn't try. Our nations would be a perfect match; both of our leaders have a speech defect.

Fuck man, stop posting that kind of shit. You're making my nose brown from complementing you about that stuff

-----

And when you look at history, the "grand days of Europe" have always been days of unified Europe. The ancient Rome, Charlemagne's empire, Napoleon and even Hitler 'till some point (he was pretty "grand" all over Europe until he started losing, duh).

No inside borders, no customs offices, free movement of trade and people... Such wonderful ideas of a future economic basis. If we could force ourselves to push this through Europe would certainly be grand again. And in the end, no one would be left to pay the bill alone - we'd share it together, more like one big nation instead of quarreling bunch of pathetic little states.

Doyle · Post by **Doyle** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:16 pm

Speaking of the Canadian military...

Kashluk · Post by **Kashluk** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:20 pm

Over the next 15 years the Canadian Forces will need close to $50 billion to replace obsolete equipment. But current projections indicate there will only be about $20 billion available.

That's a whole lot of money to use on big boys' toys.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:39 pm

If we used the military to gain power... all we do i humanitarian shit, we aren't that rich and we keep giving to everyone ffs. Gay liberals.

Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD · Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:40 pm

s4ur0n27 wrote:And personnaly I think Quebec would ally with the USA very quickly just to have the satisfaction of kicking some western canadian arses.

id join a resistance just because i dislike the whole US idea of government and regulations.

Quebec would defect because they are all a bunch of seperatist scum.

Menno · Post by **Menno** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:44 pm

Doyle wrote:Speaking of the Canadian military...

Yeah, the Canadian Armed Forces are in really bad shape, which is a pity.

Mr. Chretien has also dismissed suggestions that a large infusion of cash is needed for the Canadian Forces. "We treat the military very well," Mr. Chretien said in October when he visited Canadian troops in Kabul. "They are very well equipped."

Haha, I know alot of guys who would love to inform him differently. Within a few years, unless Canada infuses their military with more money, it'll cease being operationally-compatible with US/UK/Australian forces. It would be a shame really, because Canada used to have a proud military tradition that's slowly being strangled and squandered. Personally, I know alot of Canadians who are disgusted by the Canadian government, especially in the western provinces.

For the United States, this whole thing is a disappointment. Not only does this mean it would have to shoulder alot of the burden that was once shared, but now Canada is more like a bystander instead of an active participant. The United States and Canada's military/government security forces used to work very closely together on a variety of defense installations and projects, but because of things such as this, things are starting to slow down cooperation-wise.

Remember, it's not the US advocating the annexation or independence of those two provinces, it's actually those two provinces themselves. When a country has 2-3 provinces threatening to leave (whether they really mean it or not), that kind of issue really needs to be addressed. From what my Canadian friends are telling me, it seems as if the government is dragging their feet addressing them.

A military is like insurance; when you don't need it you wonder why the hell have it, yet when you do really need it you're glad you do have it. It's cheaper to maintain a military continually then it is to build-dismantle-build-dismantle process over and over again.