I officially give up on Christianity

[Kashluk]

And did the Chinese think the Earth was round? I've seen ancient chinese maps of the world

Well that wasn't quite my point, you know.

The text beneath those pictures (this was in my history book) described how the Chinese thought the world was a flat disc, with China in middle of it. -> "Round, but flat nevertheless."

[iohkus]

NAFTA is my god.

but really, who the fuck cares? I couldn't care less what people believe in as long as they aren't assholes.

[RawonaM]

The wisest thing is to admit that we know nothing.
I dont deny any religion nor do I really beleave in any of them since I see no reason to do so!
So I just live like I want and not like someone/thing would like me to live.
Live fast, Die young! :badgrin:

[Franz Schubert]

And Kash, about the dark ages, that was my point, the religions caused it, and they are causing another just now.

I don't think religion "caused" the Dark Ages, but it certainly was a factor. And I completely disagree that religion is causing another Dark Age. On the contrary, I think the Church and religion in general is in a serious decline, like none ever seen before.

For instance, right now the Roman Catholic Church doesn't really have any direct political power. More telling, however, is the steep decline in the number of people nowadays who consider themselves to be religious. I foresee in the future religious people being the minority, at least in America.

Think of booms in science and technology over the last 100 years alone. They outweigh anything the world has ever seen. Politically, too, the world has been changing quite rapidly. Things in the world are progressing more rapidly in this era than ever before. Can this rapid progress have bad consequences? Probably, but I think the benefits outweight the detriments.

[Kashluk]

You sound awfully lot like Hegel with those "Progress is advancement"- statements. Too bad not many agreed with Hegel.

If we had ended up nuking the world during the cold war, would've those "benefits" outweighted the detriments of nuclear winter?

And as we've seen there are "ups" and "downs" in mankind's history. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few hundread years or so we'd end up in a deeply religious and conservative era. We've been shaking off religions since the reneissance, like the ancient Romans did but as sure as another Ice Age is coming another "dark age" is to come.

[iohkus]

You sound awfully lot like Hegel with those "Progress is advancement"- statements. Too bad not many agreed with Hegel.

If we had ended up nuking the world during the cold war, would've those "benefits" outweighted the detriments of nuclear winter?

And as we've seen there are "ups" and "downs" in mankind's history. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few hundread years or so we'd end up in a deeply religious and conservative era. We've been shaking off religions since the reneissance, like the ancient Romans did but as sure as another Ice Age is coming another "dark age" is to come.

Read "The Handmaid's Tale" it deals directly with what you're going at, if the west were to become hardcore religous for whatever reasons

it's a dystopian almost post-apocalyptic novel based on how the US is thrown in a return to a conservative theocracy with all the religous fervour and fundamentalism that can be expected... pretty good read

[Franz Schubert]

We've been shaking off religions since the reneissance, like the ancient Romans did but as sure as another Ice Age is coming another "dark age" is to come.

Yes but keep in mind, nowadays the "ignorant masses" aren't anywhere NEAR as ignorant as they were in the Dark Ages. The Church exploited their ignorance, which is how they got control over them. I don't see how anything could possibly happen now that could disrupt the course of the world dramatically enough to allow religion to become as widespread as it used to be. Perhaps the apocalypse?

[Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD]

We've been shaking off religions since the reneissance, like the ancient Romans did but as sure as another Ice Age is coming another "dark age" is to come.

Yes but keep in mind, nowadays the "ignorant masses" aren't anywhere NEAR as ignorant as they were in the Dark Ages. The Church exploited their ignorance, which is how they got control over them. I don't see how anything could possibly happen now that could disrupt the course of the world dramatically enough to allow religion to become as widespread as it used to be. Perhaps the apocalypse?

oh yah? how many people know canada has provinces and can name a few?

[Slave_Master]

And Kash, about the dark ages, that was my point, the religions caused it, and they are causing another just now.

And here I thought the fall of Rome caused the Dark Ages in the Western world. Silly me.

I don't think religion "caused" the Dark Ages, but it certainly was a factor.

I don't think religion caused the Dark Ages, but one certainly could argue that the Roman Church prolonged, ie, branding Galileo and other scientists as heretics. Of course, that's still a pretty lameass job of prolonging it.

Now, blaming that on religion itself is rather silly, seeing as how the Muslim world was doing extremely well in the arts and sciences during the Dark and Middle Ages. At the best, you can bitch about the Catholic church.

And I completely disagree that religion is causing another Dark Age. On the contrary, I think the Church and religion in general is in a serious decline, like none ever seen before.

I agree. Even taking into consideration the Islamic terrorists, religion doesn't have nearly as much global influence as it did in the past.

For instance, right now the Roman Catholic Church doesn't really have any direct political power. More telling, however, is the steep decline in the number of people nowadays who consider themselves to be religious. I foresee in the future religious people being the minority, at least in America.

Thanks in large part to what some would call persecution of Christians in the United States, but that's another conversation.

Think of booms in science and technology over the last 100 years alone. They outweigh anything the world has ever seen

I'd say past two hundred years. Just about everything invented in the first half of the 20th century was built on revolutionary inventions from the 1800's.

Can this rapid progress have bad consequences? Probably, but I think the benefits outweight the detriments

Howso?

[Kashluk]

I think Franz left out the "happines factor" out of his equation.

You can always measure population, profit, labor etc. but you can not precisely measure how well people are feeling. Maybe the cavemen thousands of years ago felt better than we do today in middle of all these new technological wonders? Maybe their simple life was a better choice of a lifestyle for human race?

Religion, at least to some point, is meant to increase the "happiness factor". That's why I don't see anything bad in it.

[S4ur0n27]

Religion contributed to the fall of the Roman Empire and thus to the beginning of the Dark Age and it certainly didn't work too hard to get Europe out of it.

Religion is not always the direct cause but it did indirectly cause a lot of sad things. Take the Jews in Germany, Vatican knew all the way, and they let it happen.

Religion may go downhill here in NA, but it certainly isn't in third-world countries, and it's causing all sort of stupid wars and especially terrorism. Tension in the Middle-East is ever growing and I think we're not far from something.

It's still to see tho.

[Slave_Master]

Religion contributed to the fall of the Roman Empire and thus to the beginning of the Dark Age and it certainly didn't work too hard to get Europe out of it.

And here I thought civil wars, weak emperors, and barbarians contributed to the fall of the Roman Empire. Silly me. Again.

P.S. It was the same religion they had for eight hundred years.

[Kashluk]

And again, religion isn't the only reason for the tensions in the middle east. Mostly oil and therefore the fact that after it runs out, the people living in the desert will have practically no income is a big thing.

[Neon Dingo]

Any kind of lie used to subdue the masses is bad. Period.

I don't know about you, but I don't need to lie to myself to be happy.

The Middle East conflict doesn't solely rely on religion, yes, but it might as well. Israel vs. Palestine has nothing to do with oil. It has to do with two stupid religions wanting a tiny piece of land. It's probably the most prominent conflict in the Middle East and will most likely erupt into a great war sooner or later.

All religions should be abolished. Religion is completely illogical. The less logic it has, the more it can only be understood by "faith" and faith means obedience to the interpreters of the confusion. This is the power of the priesthood class, they profit from ignorance and blind belief.

Christians still believe Evolution is fake. These are the same people that locked up Galileo in permanent house arrest because he believed that the sun revolved around Earth. The Christian church has put animals on trial for crimes against God and has accepted cash donations for forgiveness of their sins - even from dead relatives!

After reading that, tell me what great benefit comes from Christianity that doesn't outweigh their ubiquitous stupidity?

The people at the top control you. The matrix has you.

[Kashluk]

The western civilization for example? Many things are based on Christian values, the hell, ethics ARE religion in many places.

There are many religious people that are smarter than some atheists. The fact that such people as "practical Christians" (who adore the faith & science at the same time) exist already proves my point.

Faith and scientific knowledge don't need to clash. They can clash, causing sparkles and forest fires and whatever if you really really really want it to happen, but it's not necessary.

People lie all the time. "Lying" to yourself about religious beliefs would be more of a white lie when compared to lying for gaining profit, lying to yourself to raise your self-esteem, lying to your loved ones about your feelings...

And by saying religion is illogical, I recommend you to grab a few books from your local library: something from Spinoza, Descartes, Wittgenstein and Plato. They were all, besides philosophers, scientists and theologists. You can't take a philosopher seriously if he or she has never wondered about a Higher Power's existence. And most of them ended up with a result, that YES - there is something out there.

From the well-known studies, Marx's is propably the only one that openly dislikes religion. And we all know how well Marx's theories worked in practice (not to push this thread towards political debate or anything, but let's face it - USSR & the rest failed miserably).

Religion's number one priority is not to fool the people, no matter how many times you read The Republic or Communist Manifesto. In the early times it was supposed to explain things we couldn't understand. And in this era of science we're living in, it is to give our life a higher cause and straight lines to follow. Should we lie, should we steal, should we cheat and so on.

[Phias]

Alright, now I'm STAYING agnostic. Thanks.

[Franz Schubert]

Religion's number one priority is not to fool the people, no matter how many times you read The Republic or Communist Manifesto. In the early times it was supposed to explain things we couldn't understand. And in this era of science we're living in, it is to give our life a higher cause and straight lines to follow. Should we lie, should we steal, should we cheat and so on.

Nowadays, when people can easilly fire up Google and find answers, the Church really only has two purposes left that I can see. First of all, it still provides a "moral guideline" for people who can't decide right and wrong themselves. Secondly, it comforts people to believe that there is always someone watching over them, and there is an afterlife.

[Mandalorian FaLLouT GoD]

And in this era of science we're living in, it is to give our life a higher cause and straight lines to follow. Should we lie, should we steal, should we cheat and so on.

life a higher cause?
you mean you think you have a purpose on this planet other than to make your parents wish they never had kids?

lines to follow?
you mean that if religion didnt exist we would steal and cheat and lie in a technologically advanced society?
with that said, you think people who go to church dont lie, cheat and steal?

[Kashluk]

With the higher cause you're exactly correct. If you think your whole point of existence is to make your parents wish they never had kids, then maybe you should really consider suicide?

Lines to follow... I'm not saying it would be all whacked if religion didn't exist. But religion is one source of sharing those "lines to follow". Look at those people in the prisons! How many of them convert & start a new life and how many of them deal drugs? Religion CAN give you a purpose. It WILL NOT force you to have a purpose, it allows you to take a new chance. Among other things offering such a chance, sure, but it does that too.

Alright, now I'm STAYING agnostic. Thanks.

I'm sorry... but I've been gulping down so much bad sarcasm, that I can't really tell real thanks from nasty remarks anymore. So which one was this?

Nowadays, when people can easilly fire up Google and find answers, the Church really only has two purposes left that I can see. First of all, it still provides a "moral guideline" for people who can't decide right and wrong themselves.

If you opened your window and looked outside, you'd be surprised how many people can't. So which one is the better choice - let them be like that or allow them to take these moral guidelines? And heavy weight on the word *allow* it isn't *forcing*, you know, it's the 21st century.

Secondly, it comforts people to believe that there is always someone watching over them, and there is an afterlife.

So? Something wrong with that? Just because you don't believe in it, doesn't make it any less true, for anyone besides yourself. You can't proove it scientifically to one direction or another, it's a question of faith. Nobody forces you to believe in anything, but you shouldn't force others to stop believing either.

---------------

EDIT: The funniest thing of all is, that atheism counts as a religion. The faith in nothing, a theo, no God. So people who are insulting all religious people are infact insulting themselves in the process as well. Religion is something inside our brain, something that all people have. Be it faith in God, Jahwe, Buddha or nothing, we all are religious on some level. In fact, an atheist who openly mocks other religions is no better than a muslim fanatic calling others heathens. This just to point out, that it's always good to defend your faith but pretty stupid to fight against others.

[Apocalypse 2077]

And if God did exists he must have died giving birth to humanity.

Friedrich Nietzsche said: "God is dead..."

And God said: "Actually I think you'll find Nietzsche is dead."