Top film list

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 9:55 pm

Yeah, I've read the stuff you mentioned, Schubert. It was boring. Really, what does Fagonlance have going for it? It's just stereotypical dimestore fantasy stuff. Elaborate please.

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:04 pm

atoga wrote:Not really; I say that because I haven't read any good ones - and there don't seem to be any with the stuff I mentioned.

Try "Day of the Triffids", you can finish it in 1 or 2 days. On the surface, it's just another dumb SF-post-apoc book, beneath the surface it's not (though the lovestory is, as always, dumb)

Or Slaughterhouse 5 (obviously). Or Dr. Bloodmoney. Or Solyaris, though I've never read that one.

By the way; I also think people that say "intelligent people like SF and fantasy because it's more intelligent" are dumb. Good SF and good fantasy is rare, and most intelligent people just read the same dumb soap as housewives reading kitchennovels, just in another wrapping (Sword of Truth is an example of this, as is whatchamacallit, the Circle of...Time? Dragonlance prolly is too, though I never read it). This wrapping means they can deny it's just some stupid piece of soapy shit and get on with their egos.

That's besides the point, though, SF and fantasy do still have a great potential despite the mass of moronic reading

Pardon my French

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:10 pm

Franz_Schubert wrote:Spazmo: Which Dragonlance novels did you read?

Read most of the core stuff by Weis and Hickman. And Chaos aside, the fact remains that the Paladine guy and Takhisis aren't perfectly balanced and thus universe = borked. The whole mythos thing doesn't work because the good gods aren't good, they're neutral. And shit, atoga's right, it's just more so-so fantasy. Kind of thing you read on a plane to pass the time. Nothing meaningful, really. It's well written, I'll admit, but it doesn't knock my socks off.

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:16 pm

The characters are one of the main strongpoints I would say. The thing I liked about the characters is that they were all quite flawed, unlike most other fantasy I've read where you have perfect ideal characters. But the characters in Dragonlance are so rich and develop so well over the course of the trilogy. Even though they're flawed, if anything that only makes the reader more sympathetic to them. Pretty much each character is suffering from some kind of internal conflict, which makes them seem more human and realistic. I had more empathy for the characters in Dragonlance than I have had for those in most other fiction I've read.

The storyline/conflict is admittedly cliche (band of heroes going up against an evil army following a dark goddess who's trying to take over the world.), but this brings me to the number one strongpoint of Dragonlance: The world, Krynn. It is so rich and deep (the history is great) that the story felt quite epic and important. Actually, that's what I think is lacking in most fantasy: a deep world. I think we can all agree that one reason Tolkien's work is so praised is because of how thorough Middle Earth is? Weis and Hickman (the authors of DL) are avid DnD fans, and they essentially wrote Dragonlance around the world they were creating, rather than throw together a quick setting just to write a DnD book.

A lot of people read the Chronicles trilogy, then read Dragonlance by other authors, and decide that the only good DL is Weis and Hickman DL. Personally, I love the world of Krynn so much that I enjoyed the other authors, but I can still see where those people are coming from.

I've also read a lot of other fantasy, and the Chronicles are without question head and shoulders above most of it. I don't see how you can lump it all together without harboring some serious biases.

And keep in mind that the Chronicles were on the NY Times Bestseller list all throughout the 80's, so some people must have liked it.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:21 pm

Alright, Kharn, your point duly noted. Slaughterhouse-5 is a great book. I get what you're saying now.

By the way, Schubert, D&D (with the exception of Planescape) is pure shit. The characters may be rich, but so what? They're still boring.

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:26 pm

atoga wrote:By the way, Schubert, D&D (with the exception of Planescape) is pure shit.

Well, you've convinced me. Are you proud of yourself?

Evil Natured Robot · Post by **Evil Natured Robot** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:33 pm

Having studied the SF genre in university (really, no joke) I agree with Kharn on both points. There's all kind of crap out there -- from the Doom "novels" to everything by L. Ron Hubbard -- but there's also some brilliance.

Philip K. Dick, Kurt Vonnegut, Stanislaw Lem, Orson Scott Card, Isaac Asimov, and others moved the genre from pulpy tales into a true literary form. In many ways, sci-fi was the first wave of postmodern lit. Lots of potential there.

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:36 pm

And what's the big deal with Ender's Game? Why is it so good? I don't see why it deserved a hugo and nebula anyway... Someone care to explain it to me? Because the story wasn't all that great, the characters actually kind of sucked IMO, and there wasn't much else.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:50 pm

Francis_Schumacher wrote:Well, you've convinced me. Are you proud of yourself?

Do you really require more convincing? Anyway, stop reading those dimestore fagonlance novels and instead read some *good* shit.

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:57 pm

Pssst... atoga. Your age is showing.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:05 pm

All right if you can't figure it out yourself, D&D sucks because (1) it's not a roleplaying game; (2) it's stereotypical; (3) it's boring as hell; (4) only fat ADHD-ridden losers play it; (5) the worlds are all boring and predictable; (6) people such as yourself tend to take it REALLY seriously; etc. Do I run on? I could think of a million reasons (most of them better) about why D&D sucks. I could also think of quite a few better alternatives.

The things I just mentioned can also be applied to Dragonlance - boring, lame, needlessly epic, full of cookie-cut characters, however you want to put it. Oh, and Margaret Weis is one of the worst writers I've ever read.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:45 pm

atoga, playing DnD can be fun, you must have heard it a lot, but it depends on how you play it. It can compare to playing FO on a PC. It's like anything else, IMO, there is a lot of shit, and some good stuff.

atoga · Post by **atoga** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:45 pm

I'm one of the biggest RPG geeks on the board, and I'll say that D&D sucks shit (with the exception of Planescape, which is fun). I've played it a lot, and all the time it sucked. Go play a *good* rpg.

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:59 pm

atoga wrote:I'm one of the biggest RPG geeks on the board, and I'll say that D&D sucks shit (with the exception of Planescape, which is fun). I've played it a lot, and all the time it sucked. Go play a *good* rpg.

You're being a bit silly. I'll admit it's not the best game there is, but it's still a decent fantasy game. If you don't like fantasy, don't go for D&D, but it's still a pretty good game, even if it has its flaws.

BlackDog · Post by **BlackDog** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:34 am

Kharn wrote:
BlackDog wrote:Kharn fails for not having any Star Wars movie AT ALL on his list.
Star Wars, yeah...

The Lord of the Rings of its day, i.e. fucking overrated, which again, doesn't matter to me, but I do hold true to the opinion that those films aren't nearly as good as people are saying they are.

Good films, but not nearly good enough to make it on the lest.

That's why your taste is for shit.

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:36 am

BlackDog wrote:That's why your taste is for shit.

Wanna fight? C'mon, let's fight!

*strikes a pose*

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:08 am

BlackDog wrote:That's why your taste is for shit.

Sorry, but anyone who plays Star Wars Galaxies:

Automatically has even shittier taste
Automatically loses any and all debates

PerroViejo · Post by **PerroViejo** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:50 am

I am trying this new way of viewing threads where I will look at the first page of posts and then bypass all but the very last one. I figured I can tell just how mute and/or boring a subject is by how much the last page diverges from the theme of the original thread.

So, we start off with Fifty Movies and end up on Star Wars Galaxies. I don't think I missed a thing. :badgrin:

taltiren · Post by **taltiren** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:17 am

Hey atoga, i just watched North by Northwest, it was excellent.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:12 pm

10 bucks on Kharn