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andrewdane19 · Post by **andrewdane19** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:18 pm

lol funny shit

Forty-six & Two · Post by **Forty-six & Two** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:24 pm

I fail to understand why someone could find that funny...

Ghetto Goose · Post by **Ghetto Goose** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:58 pm

andrewdane19 wrote:lol funny shit

You're a dumbass. Go play FOBOS, shit-for-brains.

Killzig · Post by **Killzig** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:22 am

what's not funny? these guys are walking around with absolutely no idea they're being watched then all of a sudden they're blasted to itty bitty pieces. THEN the gunner takes his sweet friggen time fixing on the next target and these guys are pretty much standing around scratching their asses. It's great.

avenger69ie · Post by **avenger69ie** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:25 am

i dont care if they deserved it or not, for something like that to be available freely to download is absolutley disgusting.

So you would advocate censoring this stuff? Then we never know what happens in our wars, and shit a lot worse than three people dying will occur.[/quote]

Absolutley i would definetly want that censored, fucking right i would. The last thing i need to see is what seems to be 3 un-fucking-armed people getting mowed down by an attack chopper "PRO-FUCKING-FESSIONALLY", if you want to see that kind of thing go rent out an arnie movie. A snuff movie might as well have been posted.

While we're on the subject of censorship, what happened prior to to the helicopter firing on these people? what provoked it? why couldnt i see any weapons in their hands? why were there civilian vehicles there? why was the wounded guy shot at again? the whole clip disgusts me, and its the very reason i hate wars. Glorified fucking killing.
i can stomach the most gory special effects, and i've seen my fair share of violence, i've even been involved in gang fights, seen car accidents, etc... but this shit is not fucking neccesary.

There are better sources of entertainment available on the internet, than to laugh at the deaths of those three men and glorify the killers of three men.

Slave_Master · Post by **Slave_Master** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:49 am

Forty-six & Two wrote:If that guy got up BEFORE the second burst, it would be a miracle. Do you think hes lying on the ground faking massive injury?!?!

Yeah, who would think to fire while prone?!

avenger wrote:Absolutley i would definetly want that censored, fucking right i would.

Again, (Wow, it certainly is like fucking preschool with you, isn't it?) preventing people from seeing what goes on during wars only leads to situations far worse than this. Who would you rather see shit like that happen to -- soldiers who had it coming (like Menno said, chopper don't go flying around Iraq using trucks for target practice) or civilian women and children? Either way, if you censor it nobody ever finds out, and soldiers who are potentially murderers walk away free.

The last thing i need to see...

I DONT LIKE IT! BAN IT!

While we're on the subject of censorship, what happened prior to to the helicopter firing on these people? what provoked it?

So you admit that you have no fucking clue what was going on aside from people dying, yet you're the first to bitch and moan "BOOHOO COLDHEARTED MURDERS OF INNOCENT UNARMED CIVVIES". That's classic.

I don't have the story on what went on either, but like Menno said, the military doesn't run around Iraq randomly blowing shit up, so common sense would dictate that it was a provoked attack. If it comes out that it was unprovoked murder of civilians, than I'd be rather pissed.

why were there civilian vehicles there?

A crummy middle eastern military using pickup trucks? Well I never!

why was the wounded guy shot at again?

This has been discussed ad nauseum. Perhaps you were too busy typing antiwar hyperbole to notice?

Forty-six & Two · Post by **Forty-six & Two** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:30 am

Killzig wrote:what's not funny? these guys are walking around with absolutely no idea they're being watched then all of a sudden they're blasted to itty bitty pieces. THEN the gunner takes his sweet friggen time fixing on the next target and these guys are pretty much standing around scratching their asses. It's great.

Youre right about that. Those guys werent very bright.... its like they dont even notice theyre fired upon. And the last guy that hides behind the truck, then tumbles out and back again to recieve a dose of lead really fucked up. Its not really funny though... just sad.

Slave_Master wrote:Yeah, who would think to fire while prone?!

Oh. Thats just a stupid comment. He just got hit by, what, between one to five 30mm bullets? (The caliber Iohkus mentioned, I wouldnt have an idea myself) The discussion here is that the guy is half dead and they shoot him AGAIN. One of the helicopter crew even says so himself "hes wounded" then orders the gunner to shoot him again, through the truck "hit him! Go forward of the truck".

Edit: Actually I dont think the gunner hits the wounded guy, even though hes told to... the poor guy might get hit by shrapnel or bullets going off, but the crosshair never really aims at him and it looks like the dust from the bullets hitting the ground is only infront of him. The gunners told to shoot him though....

Oh.. well. Enough with the detective work, im off to bed.

avenger69ie · Post by **avenger69ie** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:10 am

slave master, you obviously didnt read what i wrote, try reading it this time.
its my opinion, i'm entitled to it, and my opinion is that its wrong. yours however is the opposite, plus you have the added fact of adding in additional insults to a debate which doesnt need them. Try making a point without insults, then you wont get a fucking agressive response from your opponent.
Unless you want this to turn into yet another
"Avenger hates america" debacle, with your insults.

Make your point OR insult me Slave Master.
you have my opinion, i dont have yours.

Ghetto Goose · Post by **Ghetto Goose** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:13 am

Killz just gets a hard-on for other people's misery.

avenger69ie · Post by **avenger69ie** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:15 am

it seems he's not the only one, but that point has yet to be proven

OnTheBounce · Post by **OnTheBounce** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:17 am

Ghetto Goose wrote:Killz just gets a hard-on for other people's misery.

In German that's known as "Schadenfreude". Literally it means "damage joy", but we don't have a true English equivalent. However, looking at how common that attitude is maybe it's time someone coined a new term...

Edit: Okay, this thing finally trickled onto my HD. (Menno, it's not quite 5 megs, so it won't take too long over DU.)

For those of you saying that there was no reaction, look again. Notice that after the first guy in the open is hosed his buddy next to the truck ducks down and is frantically looking around. The driver of the truck also took cover, and tried to get away from his vehicle. Considering that the rounds were explosive it probably wasn't immediately apparent where the rounds came from. The arcade warriors among you think this is somehow laughable should try and see what being on the receiving end of something like that is like. Not fun, and -- worst yet -- you can't simply put another quarter in or hit the reset button.

Hestitation on the part of the gunner: Notice the pilot is telling him to wait for movement in the vehicle. This probably has something to do w/the Rules of Engagement (ROE) in effect at that time. Not knowing those it would seem that judging the gunner's behaviour is a case of "insufficient evidence for a meaningful answer".

Hitting the wounded truck driver: as cold and callous as it may seem I have to say that it's probably a case of mercy, more than anything. I seriously doubt that he was in any shape to threaten the helicopter, however, they are a long way off and probably don't have any medical assets on hand. He's just been sprayed w/30mm HE rounds and is apparently in agony. A coup de grace seems the only humane thing to do. Again, that's w/o knowing anything of the "big picture" that this very short clip takes place in.

I would like to know how these clips get on the net, though. I'm not in favor of censorship, but this is exactly the stuff that's never shown on the evening news. So people are left to draw their conclussions about what combat is like from Hollywood, when what they need to be seeing is this stuff. It's the "real deal", what it's really like. Not the choreographed heroics that are a staple of the silver screened combat "experience".

OTB

Silver · Post by **Silver** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:30 am

At the end of the day those pilots were out on a mission to secure a location so it would not pose a threat to Coalition soldiers.

Let's say they would have let them live, and they would have put a RPG in a Humvee and 4 filled boxes go home, and after those iraqi's still get blown to bits by a M1A1 Abrahams.

On the other end, as Menno said they could also choose to refuse and get shot in the back by your 'friends'.

Hard choice huh? You can filosophize (err spelling) about this forever, look at it from any angle, but at the end of the day humanity is still another weak specie doomed to extinct.

Canis Lupus · Post by **Canis Lupus** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:17 am

I wonder why there was no dust kicked up by the very first burst of the cannon.

And it wasn't very exciting, was it? Just sitting in a chopper and picking off dopey Middle-Easterners. I think I'd rather be on the ground.

Hell, those guys were idiots. Jogging back and forth while under fire... Some people may say that the pilot and gunner were brutal, but it only seemed brutal because of the complete lack of ANY combat sense that the targets had.

Besides, if you get in the way of the US armed forces, tough shit.

EDIT:
'Roger, he's wounded.'
'Hit 'im.'
Seems copter jockies have a different set of morals.

Paladin Solo · Post by **Paladin Solo** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:00 am

Ummm....I might have missed something that maybe someone already posted this, but does anyone realize these guys who were killing the Iraqis were in a helicopter? They can't just stop to pick them up you know. Plus, this was out in the middle of the desert! Hmm...do you think Saddam would've given a damn about them? The guy who was wounded anyway. The guys in the chopper did him a favor by finishing him up. He wasn't going to get any help for a long time to come and would've probably died a slow painful death anyway, so yeah, we did him a favor considering.

Edit: If you look closely, the thing to the left of the trucks (the thing they first began shooting at) looks like a SAM launcher or something of that sort.

Menno · Post by **Menno** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:19 am

Canis Lupus wrote:Hell, those guys were idiots. Jogging back and forth while under fire... Some people may say that the pilot and gunner were brutal, but it only seemed brutal because of the complete lack of ANY combat sense that the targets had.

I agree.

Thanks OTB for letting me know the file isn't that large, just downloaded it and viewed it several times.

First and foremost, I don't think that this is that shocking, and I don't necessarily understand why some are so outraged because of this footage. Secondly, I don't see that the pilots did anything wrong.

Lets ignore the sounds of gunfire in the beginning [perhaps that's some anomaly due to the video transfer to MPEG format?]. Man #1 [Luke] and Man #2 [Andrew] are initially shown by their respective trucks. Luke jogs across the road and speaks to Man #3 [Osama]. Osama exits the vehicle [I can't make out what kind it is] and walks across the road to talk to Andrew. Luke looks around the vehicle and proceeds to examine a large type of bag or area of the vehicle.

Osama is fired upon as he's crossing and is annihilated. Andrew is possibly wounded [but that isn't necessarily clear] and immediately runs either under or behind the larger truck. What does Luke do, after seeing his friend Osama eliminated and Andrew screaming and running for cover? Does he seem overly concerned for the loss of his friend's life? No. Does he run? No. Does he attempt to seek cover? No. Does he put his put his hands over his head and make an attempt to surrender? Again, no. What Luke does is immediately, without hesitation, rummage through the contents of that bag looking for something [evident by him throwing the cloth-like material as he's searching frantically; the cloth covering what most likely is a weapon]. The Helicopter, noticing that Luke is obviously searching for a weapon, than proceeds to kill Luke.

Helicopter than looks for movement around the larger truck. Andrew slips into view for about 2 seconds, and it seems as if he has crawled out from underneath the truck. He immediately gets up and I'm guessing either tries to hide underneath again [unlikely] or sneak into the truck to drive off. His wounds don't appear to be that severe [his sudden movement is evident of that]. He obviously could have stayed underneath the truck, but instead he made a play to try and escape. Helicopter detects movement, and then proceeds to destroy Andrew.

We will never know exactly what these three men were doing, but it's very easy to come to the conlusion that they weren't three innocent friends who pulled over in the middle of the night to talk to one another. In my opinion, this seems more like a smuggling operation, an arms sale, or a straight up elimination [perhaps one of the men were important targets]. Three vehicles [two of which are trucks] with three different people driving each, meeting in a remote area isn't exactly normal. Also, "Luke" knows precisely where to look for that weapon, even though its not his vehicle.

"Andrew" is clearly attempting to make a getaway; if he was some innocent civilian looking to hide he would have stayed underneath the truck or stayed in place and attempt to surrend/play dead. Can we be 100% certain that these guys were doing something wrong? Of course we can't; like OTB said, we would need to see images of what was going on before. However, for some of you to call these guys "unarmed and innocent" is really giving them the benefit of the doubt. The video footage gives a clear indication that these weren't just some civilians who were just fired upon [the reaction of the two others shows that]. In my view the pilots knew exactly what these guys were doing and were specifically staking them out.

EDIT:
'Roger, he's wounded.'
'Hit 'im.'
Seems copter jockies have a different set of morals.

I don't believe he said "he's wounded". Maybe it's my hearing, but it seems to me he says something along the lines of "another guy moved right there" very quickly. This makes sense since the pilots are specifically looking for movement. When you're looking for a target, especially from that altitude, your first reaction when finding that respective target isn't if "he's wounded!" but that of you finding him. To say that the pilots knew he was wounded [and that is not clearly known] is a pretty large stretch [that's not directed at you Canis]. His reaction to finding "Andrew" is of alarm, showing that these pilots saw him as a threat; if they didn't, the reaction to finding him would have been more non-chalante. The pilots weren't laughing or joking around after the kill, showing that they were being serious and professional about the matter. To say these pilots acted brutally is bogus, at least in my view; so I agree with Canis. The footage, coupled with the pilots verbal reactions, show that this was no joy-ride taking pot shots at some guys.

Canis Lupus · Post by **Canis Lupus** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:40 am

That was a good interpretation, Menno.

Menno wrote:I don't believe he said "he's wounded". Maybe it's my hearing, but it seems to me he says something along the lines of "another guy moved right there" very quickly.

Yeah, the gunner said 'Movement right there', and then said 'Roger, he's wounded'... And so on.

To me, that mystery vehicle looks like a tractor from behind. There's the two big wheels on either side, and that white pole is the exhaust pipe. There's that long object lying behind it, which I perceive to a be plow - that explains the trail it has left.

Again, Menno, you pretty much summed the situation up.

Menno · Post by **Menno** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:47 am

Canis Lupus wrote:That was a good interpretation, Menno.

Menno wrote:I don't believe he said "he's wounded". Maybe it's my hearing, but it seems to me he says something along the lines of "another guy moved right there" very quickly.
Yeah, the gunner said 'Movement right there', and then said 'Roger, he's wounded'... And so on.

To me, that mystery vehicle looks like a tractor from behind. There's the two big wheels on either side, and that white pole is the exhaust pipe. There's that long object lying behind it, which I perceive to a be plow - that explains the trail it has left.

Again, Menno, you pretty much summed the situation up.

I tried listening for the "wounded" portion, but I can't hear it. Haha, I wouldn't be surprised if he did say it though; with all the nagging my sister and girlfriend have been doing the past few weeks I may have lost some hearing. So I'll take your word for it.

That vehicle has me stumped too. Very strange behavior regardless, but I think your right.

EDIT: I'm a moron. Just realized that initial area is plowed, and that its not a road.

Lunchmeat · Post by **Lunchmeat** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:51 am

OnTheBounce wrote:
Ghetto Goose wrote:Killz just gets a hard-on for other people's misery.
In German that's known as "Schadenfreude". Literally it means "damage joy", but we don't have a true English equivalent. However, looking at how common that attitude is maybe it's time someone coined a new term...

I believe it's called "sadism."

Canis Lupus · Post by **Canis Lupus** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:02 am

Lunchmeat wrote:I believe it's called "sadism."

Isn't sadism where people find pain and destruction amusing, and sadomasochism where people find it sexually arousing?

Er, I believe I've gone off topic.

Forty-six & Two · Post by **Forty-six & Two** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:25 am

Menno, he does say very clearly "Hes wounded" "hit him, go forward of it and hit im" (talking about the truck next to him) he also says very clearly "get the truck and him".

Im very sure of that. Try watching the movie again.

I agree with you that these guys probaly deserved to get shot at, but only to be paralyzed, not murdered. That last guy doesnt even have a chance to surrender, run or defend himself. Too simply shoot him is just brutal and cold and not very good war ethic if you ask me.

But as I mentioned though, I dont think the wounded guy is actually hit..? Even though the guy ordering tells the gunner too. Anyone seeing that too?

As regard to the mercy kill theory, I dont think thats valid. He moves AFTER the first burst. So he cant be all that hurt, those helicopter crew have no idea if he will survive his wounds or not. Of course youll say that makes him a threat, but since they wait a few moments before shooting at him again and hes still lying down, and fairly still, they should figure that hes probaly not gona get up and is no longer a threat. He never had the chance to surrender. Why he didnt stay under the truck I dont understand though.

Those pilots arent very attentive either, first time they look to the truck you can see his arm as an infared glow (or whatever sighting device they use?) just barely, the pilots does not notice... might be because the original footage wasnt as clear as this though? I noticed it the first time, about 3-4 seconds before the pilots do.

I dont think this should be censored and I dont think its an unordinary combat situation and im pretty sure those pilots have done it severeal times before and after. Its just war of course.

Canis Lupus wrote: Isn't sadism where people find pain and destruction amusing, and sadomasochism where people find it sexually arousing?

Er, I believe I've gone off topic.

Sadism is the joy of infilcting pain and seeing it caused (mostly inflicting i think)

Sadomasochism is the the sexual joy in getting hurt yourself. I think its more than sexual though, just makes you feel appreciated or something. Heh. Like some people enjoy being cuddled by your girlfirend these people enjoy being whipped with a niner.