Join The Army!

[TheGreatTriscuit]

Okay, some feedback from someone to whom the argument is less than completely hypothetical:

1: haven't seen the video yet (shitty connection)

2: I don't know how it was in Vietnam, but out here, no ones encouraging us to think of people as less than human. All the briefings I've received of any pertinence have always stressed the following:

"Your objective is the completion of your mission. The objective is to accomplished with the absolute minimum amount of force necessary. If at ALL possible, take prisoners. Once you have custody of a prisoner, that prisoners health and well being are as much your responsibility as any other non combatant. (i.e.: don't beat/kill/torture/abandon for dead/etc.)" etc...

3: I'm not combat arms, and I'm well aware of the fact that I will probably never see combat. Certainly not where I'm at right now (Kuwait). But anyone who goes up north is a target, whether they're wearing that infantry patch or not.

4: "they're on the other side of the U.S. Military, so fuck 'em"... you are either incapable or unwilling to even try to consider what it's like to be 'the other guy', and are worthy of equal parts pity and contempt. If and when I am put 'on the spot', and have to fire a weapon at someone, I will do so to the best of my ability for the sake of myself and my comrades, but If there is any other avenue by which to resolve a problem, I will seek it out. Because when you break it down, the only thing that seperates you from the other guy, is that you just happened to have the good fortune of being born in an industrialized country. That's it. If he's going to threaten my life, I'll do my best to put an end to his... but that’s as far as it goes.

5: "we don't know the whole picture and can't really judge the situation too much". Absolutely. As I said, I haven't seen the video yet, but from the above descriptions, everything sounds as kosher as can be expected given the lack of information. It's possible that the whole thing was a mistake. They happen, but we don't and will never know the whole story, so...

6: "ha ha, look at those guys, they're gettin' killed and are t3h dumb0rz!" see point 4. In addition: I doubt you would have the best reactions in the world if you were having a more or less casual conversation with your pals, and all of a sudden one of the exploded in a hail of 30mm gunfire. I sure as fuck wouldn't. (just for comparison: my M16 fires a 5.56mm round... 30mm is no fucking joke)

(I'm not entirely sure if thats what they fire, but I know it's at least 30mm... that sounds right anyway. like I said, I'm Signal... don't spend too much time in a gunners seat )

7: "he ran and is thus guilty" for objectivities sake, I would point out that if your scared shitless, whether civilian or military, your not going to have the best judgment in the whole world. If I was in that situation (hiding under a truck), and the area was being fired upon by a fucken chopper with a big fucken gun that could easily blow the fuck out of the truck I was under, I'd probably cut and run too. Consider the fact that if it was a suspected arms deal or whatever, the vehicles themselves might be targets. Getting INTO the vehicle would probably not be on my list of smart things to do, but again, dude was probably scared shitless.

8: "they just put him out of his misery" sketchy... possible, but sketchy. Technically, we are forbidden from deliberately maiming someone, but if we fire on them, wound them, and the threat is removed, we are under no obligation to keep firing. However, if he is considered a combatant, and has not made an obvious attempt to surrender (thus rendering him a non-combatant according to the Geneva Convention), It's almost certainly (I'm somewhat sketchy on the ROE, and they change all the damn time so it depends on when the incident happened) within the bounds of the ROE to finish him off, because as others have pointed out, he could just go off, (depending upon the severity of his wounds which is unknown) and rpg a HMMWV somewhere or whatever. But don't quote me on the last bit about the ROE.

9: "omg! this is horrible! censor it!" a.k.a. "If I don't see it, it can't hurt me". Wow. Just... wow.

10: "Join the Army!"... no comment .

[Menno]

Menno, he does say very clearly "Hes wounded" "hit him, go forward of it and hit im" (talking about the truck next to him) he also says very clearly "get the truck and him".

Im very sure of that. Try watching the movie again.

I honestly can't find where he say's there's someone wounded. If you could give me the precise time [for example, :36 seconds into it or something like that] where he says it I'd appreciate it. To me it sounds like "see if anyone's moving by the truck" [around 00:30 seconds] in reference to the third guy that they didn't get.

I agree with you that these guys probaly deserved to get shot at, but only to be paralyzed, not murdered.

How exactly do you paralyze and not kill? If you're talking about firing upon them and purposely missing [to get their attention], you basically are just giving away your position [and the guy is still going to be looking for a weapon regardless].

That last guy doesnt even have a chance to surrender, run or defend himself. Too simply shoot him is just brutal and cold and not very good war ethic if you ask me.

He hides underneath the truck, and slides out near the door. He had a few places to hide; he could have dropped immediately the ground in the open to signal a surrender. There isn't going to be a welcome mat to surrender. He himself may have been completely innocent and just a friend of one of the guys; but in combat you don't have time to run an ID check on every single person. The old adage "choose your company wisely".

[OnTheBounce]

Thanks OTB for letting me know the file isn't that large, just downloaded it and viewed it several times.

No problem. Always willing to assist a fellow "dial-up dildo"!

Lets ignore the sounds of gunfire in the beginning [perhaps that's some anomaly due to the video transfer to MPEG format?].

No, I think the gunner fucked up. You can see at the beginning of the video the round counter displays 300, then there's the sound of a burst, the round counter displays 280 (285?), and the gunner sounds like he said, "Oh fuck," and there is some chatter about range. My money says they had trouble getting a decent laze and w/bad range data they put some rounds in the dirt way short of the target. They then go to "auto range", which I'm assuming is like "Battle Sight Zero" on a tank, namely a default range used when you can't get a decent range to the target, and would account for the fact that the rounds aren't impacting in the crosshairs of the reticle.

It seems that the dismounts sped up when the first burst was fired, but since nothing hit anywhere near them they probably figured they weren't the target. Lack of context hurts here, since they could have been out in the middle of nowhere making some sort of deal like Menno says -- in which case they were stupid since they should have taken even a badly aimed burst as a sign that the "jig was up" -- or this could be part of a much larger engagement and the two other arrivals were part of a supply detail or something of that nature. In that case, the sound of the burst probably didn't alarm them because it wasn't the only thing going on.

I didn't see a date on the display, so who knows when this was shot. It could be part of the initial campaign, or a part of the irregular operations after the fall of Baghdad. The vehicles aren't much of a clue here, either, since the Iraqis used a large number of civilian vehicles even during Gulf War I. (Mostly requisitioned transport to make up for soft-skinned vehicle shortages.)

The Helicopter, noticing that Luke is obviously searching for a weapon, than proceeds to kill Luke.

They don't coment on it. I don't think at that point it really mattered what he was doing. Whatever took place before the video starts had probably marked those dismounts and they'd have fragged them regardless.

[The downed man's] wounds don't appear to be that severe [his sudden movement is evident of that]. He obviously could have stayed underneath the truck, but instead he made a play to try and escape. Helicopter detects movement, and then proceeds to destroy Andrew.

Look at it again. He's rolling along the ground. Hard to make out details through FLIR, such as facial expression, but I'd guess this guy was hit pretty badly and was doing the best his shattered body could do to get him away from the action. We can sit here and armchair quarterback to our hearts' content, but my guess would be that he didn't want to stay around the stricked truck. (Can't blame him there. Vehicles have a bad habit of catching fire and/or exploding after a bit.)

I still stand by the fact that it was more an act of mercy than anything, even if that wasn't what was going through the chopper crew's minds at the time. Also notice that when they actually sprayed him down he'd quite moving. It really wouldn't surprise me if he'd passed out or even bled to death by that time. In other words, he was beyond help.

His reaction to finding "Andrew" is of alarm, showing that these pilots saw him as a threat; if they didn't, the reaction to finding him would have been more non-chalante. The pilots weren't laughing or joking around after the kill, showing that they were being serious and professional about the matter.

As a former tank crewman, who's spent hours squinting through sights and putting holes in things at long range, I have to say that the tone of the voices doesn't say anything, one way or the other. Some tank crews sound like the world's coming to an end when going down a tank gunnery course w/only plywood enemies, while others will sound calm and matter-of-fact when under fire in combat. Again, this video is a huge case of "insufficient data for a meaningful answer." About the only thing it serves to illustrate is how frail the human body when modern weapons are turned on it.

I also think that most people don't understand how depersonalized vehicular combat is. If you're looking through FLIR or TIS you're really not taking aim at people, simply hot spots on the screen. So it's really more about de-humanization than brutality.

EDIT: I'm a moron. Just realized that initial area is plowed, and that its not a road.

Yes, it sure is.

BTW, gentlemen, you may now have an idea of why friendly fire occurs. Look at the problems that you're having identifying vehicles in the comfort of your own home. Just imagine what it's like in the heat of combat...

OTB

PS This video seems to be a hot thing on the web right now. I noticed in The Order's forum (on NMA) that a link has been posted, but it's a different URL. Might be a different video, but I somehow doubt it.

[Menno]

No, I think the gunner fucked up. You can see at the beginning of the video the round counter displays 300, then there's the sound of a burst, the round counter displays 280 (285?), and the gunner sounds like he said, "Oh fuck," and there is some chatter about range. My money says they had trouble getting a decent laze and w/bad range data they put some rounds in the dirt way short of the target. They then go to "auto range", which I'm assuming is like "Battle Sight Zero" on a tank, namely a default range used when you can't get a decent range to the target, and would account for the fact that the rounds aren't impacting in the crosshairs of the reticle.

That actually makes alot of sense, just noticed that because you pointed it out.

They don't coment on it. I don't think at that point it really mattered what he was doing. Whatever took place before the video starts had probably marked those dismounts and they'd have fragged them regardless.

I don't doubt that at all. It's obvious once the first shot was fired that they were seeking to kill all targets. What I meant was that they targeted him second because he seemed to be making the most movements, though the way I said it earlier didn't come out right [and of course he was the most visible after the first was taken out]. Of all three, his actions were the most suspicous by far.

Look at it again. He's rolling along the ground. Hard to make out details through FLIR, such as facial expression, but I'd guess this guy was hit pretty badly and was doing the best his shattered body could do to get him away from the action. We can sit here and armchair quarterback to our hearts' content, but my guess would be that he didn't want to stay around the stricked truck. (Can't blame him there. Vehicles have a bad habit of catching fire and/or exploding after a bit.)

I'm not too sure though. Maybe you're right, but after looking at it several times, it doesn't seem like he's showing any much, if any, lateral movement. At :37 seconds, you see his body fall back; as if he were either leaning up against the truck and fell or came out from underneath. He quickly arises once doing so [taking approximately one and a half seconds] and by :40 seconds you don't even see him anymore [two seconds later they destroy the truck]. I'm not saying he wasn't wounded, but I don't think he was severely wounded up until his death.

[Forty-six & Two]

I honestly can't find where he say's there's someone wounded. If you could give me the precise time [for example, :36 seconds into it or something like that] where he says it I'd appreciate it. To me it sounds like "see if anyone's moving by the truck" [around 00:30 seconds] in reference to the third guy that they didn't get.

Heres a transription of how I hear it anyway. Pretty sure thats how the part goes. This is just after theyve sprayed the guy through the truck, then scans the area and targets the truck and the wounded guy again, "movement right there" is the wounded guy making a few jitters, then lies still.

00:54-00:56 "Movement right there, roger, hes wounded"

00:56-00:58 "Hit him! (Alright?) Hit the truck"

00:58-1:00 "hit the truck and him, go forward of it and hit him!"

How exactly do you paralyze and not kill? If you're talking about firing upon them and purposely missing [to get their attention], you basically are just giving away your position [and the guy is still going to be looking for a weapon regardless].

No, im not talking about the first two kills. Im talking about the guy lying on the ground after taking a hail of bullets through the truck. Why shoot him again? I want to mention again though, that I dont actually think hes fired directly upon, even though the gunner is ordered to do so.

Mercy kill? Again. They have no idea how wounded he is, but at the time of the order to shoot again, he is pacified and not a threat. Why shoot him again? I cant find a good reason besides "mopping up" for the sake of it. Thats pretty brutal, cold and not very honourable.

He hides underneath the truck, and slides out near the door. He had a few places to hide; he could have dropped immediately the ground in the open to signal a surrender. There isn't going to be a welcome mat to surrender. He himself may have been completely innocent and just a friend of one of the guys; but in combat you don't have time to run an ID check on every single person. The old adage "choose your company wisely".

Surrender?! Would you stay in the open after seeing your two buddys get ripped apart in the clean sight of a attack helicopter? He hides behind the truck, is still a threat to the helicopter crew, gets a spray thorugh the truck and is pacified. How come the guy in charge then states that he is wounded and orders the gunner shoot again..?

[Menno]

Heres a transription of how I hear it anyway. Pretty sure thats how the part goes. This is just after theyve sprayed the guy through the truck, then scans the area and targets the truck and the wounded guy again, "movement right there" is the wounded guy making a few jitters, then lies still.

00:54-00:56 "Movement right there, roger, hes wounded"

00:56-00:58 "Hit him! (Alright?) Hit the truck"

00:58-1:00 "hit the truck and him, go forward of it and hit him!"

Haha, oh shit there's more? Mine ends at :49 seconds. So the guy gets up again after the truck gets destroyed? Shit I gotta re-download it then. Scratch the latter part of my theory then, I apologize.

EDIT: I've tried re-downloading it, yet it continually ends at :49 seconds. Is there something wrong with the link, or is it my cache screwing things up or something?

Surrender?! Would you stay in the open after seeing your two buddys get ripped apart in the clean sight of a attack helicopter?

Trust me, I've seen guys do even stupider things. I've seen guys literally drop to the ground and put their face up against the sand in total fear. Funny thing is that's what ended up saving their life; sometimes doing the most bone-headed thing turns out to be the smart thing.

[Forty-six & Two]

EDIT: I've tried re-downloading it, yet it continually ends at :49 seconds. Is there something wrong with the link, or is it my cache screwing things up or something?.

Thats pretty strange... I see 1:08 minutes. Seems like most others do too?

[OnTheBounce]

That actually makes alot of sense, just noticed that because you pointed it out.

Funny how different things stand out to different people, eh? The impact of the tracers was immediately apparent to me, but probably because I've spent hours looking for where my tracers were going. Then again, I didn't see the guy waving what appears to be a cheese cloth around.

Thats pretty brutal, cold and not very honourable.

46&2, there is no such thing as honor on the modern battlefield. There are conventions that have been introduced to keep war from becoming to cruel and personal, but honor isn't any part of the equation. This is an age where artillery and airpower are the biggest killers. We're not talking about 19th century duels because someone insulted someone's wife here. It's detached and very impersonal.

I fail to see how anyone can even think of words like "honor" in a game that is centered around doing the maximum amount of damage to the enemy while avoiding as much damage as possible yourself.

Haha, oh shit there's more? Mine ends at :49 seconds. So the guy gets up again after the truck gets destroyed? Shit I gotta re-download it then. Scratch the latter part of my theory then, I apologize.

Yes, at 0:50 he reemerges and it's very much apparent that he's rolling on the ground.

OTB

[Forty-six & Two]

46&2, there is no such thing as honor on the modern battlefield. There are conventions that have been introduced to keep war from becoming to cruel and personal, but honor isn't any part of the equation. This is an age where artillery and airpower are the biggest killers. We're not talking about 19th century duels because someone insulted someone's wife here. It's detached and very impersonal.

I fail to see how anyone can even think of words like "honor" in a game that is centered around doing the maximum amount of damage to the enemy while avoiding as much damage as possible yourself.

OTB

Yeah. I know what you mean, honour probaly was what I personally felt was missing in the last actions of the officer giving orders, when ordering the gunner to shoot a wounded guy lying pacified on fairly open ground.

What I fail see is how hes upholding all those conventions I keep hearing about..? That guy on the ground definetly wasnt a threat and I dont get the impression that the officer is making a mercy kill here, since he has no way of knowing just how badly the guy is wounded, also he doesnt even give him a living chance at surrendering. Of course you cant always wait for a white flag... but unless they knew of severeal other targets and threats in the immidiate area, making total elimination a obligatory thing, he simply ordered to shoot again because he could and because he didnt care whether the guy got up again to surrender, attack or run away.

[Menno]

Funny how different things stand out to different people, eh? The impact of the tracers was immediately apparent to me, but probably because I've spent hours looking for where my tracers were going. Then again, I didn't see the guy waving what appears to be a cheese cloth around.

Haha, I'd hate to be on his side on the ground when he "slipped" and fired a burst. Yikes.

Yes, at 0:50 he reemerges and it's very much apparent that he's rolling on the ground.

OTB

I tip my hat off [or is it Beret HUR HUR HUR!] to the son of a bitch then. I thought he was a goner after the first time they hit the truck.

[Forty-six & Two]

I tip my hat off to the son of a bitch then. I thought he was a goner after the first time they hit the truck.

Nope, it seems hes still kicking and might have survived to regret ever going up against someone with an attack helicopter, heat detecting targeting systems and a big fucking gun (with a fairly off gunner though?)

Talking about being off, OTB, I dont think the gunner actually shoots the downed guy again, does he? It looks like he only targets the truck and fires at it, even though hes ordered to shoot both. But since its the last thing you see he might have shoot the guy directly after the 1:08 minutes of the footage ended though...

Cant someone please check this out for me? Everyones been ignoring my other comments about it...

[OnTheBounce]

Haha, I'd hate to be on his side on the ground when he "slipped" and fired a burst. Yikes.

Don't get me going on aviators. Fuckin' prima donas... (I went over this w/Hammer a long time ago after someone posted a link to some footage of an AC-130 hosing some people down in Afghanistan.)

Talking about being off, OTB, I dont think the gunner actually shoots the downed guy again, does he? It looks like he only targets the truck and fires at it, even though hes ordered to shoot both.

Yes, he splatters him w/the burst that also hits the truck. In fact, rounds hit directly where he was at. Nasty stuff. Should be tagged "remains not fit for viewing"...

Edit:

What I fail see is how hes upholding all those conventions I keep hearing about..?

Things like this are touch and go, and I really can't give an answer one way or the other since I don't know the whole story. However, in the heat of battle things will always be tricky. For instance, if the chopper is operating w/o nearby ground forces what are they to do? They can't land and pick the guy up since that's not what an Apache gunship is designed for.


OTB

[Forty-six & Two]

Yes, he splatters him w/the burst that also hits the truck. In fact, rounds hit directly where he was at. Nasty stuff. Should be tagged "remains not fit for viewing"...

OTB

Yeah, youre probably right.. it doesnt look like the gunner aims at him though, but the burst goes beyond the truck and hits him I guess.

[OnTheBounce]

Yeah, youre probably right.. it doesnt look like the gunner aims at him though, but the burst goes beyond the truck and hits him I guess.

They didn't aim at either of the other two directly, either. They were having problems with range, that much is clear, although I'm not sure why they were shooting off to the right like they were.

I know if my tank's sights had been that far off I'd have tried to re-align them ("bore sight"), and if they drifted off that badly again I'd be calling a mechanic. But what I did and what these guys are doing aren't quite the same thing, although there are some similarities.

OTB

[andrewdane19]

none of you guys kno what the hell ur talking about . just shut the hell up and watch and like and enjoy the video .

[Forty-six & Two]

none of you guys kno what the hell ur talking about . just shut the hell up and watch and like and enjoy the video .

LoL. I smell a ban coming in the near future.

[Menno]

none of you guys kno what the hell ur talking about . just shut the hell up and watch and like and enjoy the video .

HUR HUR HUR Shhh!! I'm watching the c00l PartIcLe effects!

You're a dumbass kid.

[andrewdane19]

i was just playin , didnt mean any harm to anyone sorry

[avenger69ie]

Killz just gets a hard-on for other people's misery.

In German that's known as "Schadenfreude". Literally it means "damage joy", but we don't have a true English equivalent. However, looking at how common that attitude is maybe it's time someone coined a new term...

Edit: Okay, this thing finally trickled onto my HD. (Menno, it's not quite 5 megs, so it won't take too long over DU.)

For those of you saying that there was no reaction, look again. Notice that after the first guy in the open is hosed his buddy next to the truck ducks down and is frantically looking around. The driver of the truck also took cover, and tried to get away from his vehicle. Considering that the rounds were explosive it probably wasn't immediately apparent where the rounds came from. The arcade warriors among you think this is somehow laughable should try and see what being on the receiving end of something like that is like. Not fun, and -- worst yet -- you can't simply put another quarter in or hit the reset button.

Hestitation on the part of the gunner: Notice the pilot is telling him to wait for movement in the vehicle. This probably has something to do w/the Rules of Engagement (ROE) in effect at that time. Not knowing those it would seem that judging the gunner's behaviour is a case of "insufficient evidence for a meaningful answer".

Hitting the wounded truck driver: as cold and callous as it may seem I have to say that it's probably a case of mercy, more than anything. I seriously doubt that he was in any shape to threaten the helicopter, however, they are a long way off and probably don't have any medical assets on hand. He's just been sprayed w/30mm HE rounds and is apparently in agony. A coup de grace seems the only humane thing to do. Again, that's w/o knowing anything of the "big picture" that this very short clip takes place in.

I would like to know how these clips get on the net, though. I'm not in favor of censorship, but this is exactly the stuff that's never shown on the evening news. So people are left to draw their conclussions about what combat is like from Hollywood, when what they need to be seeing is this stuff. It's the "real deal", what it's really like. Not the choreographed heroics that are a staple of the silver screened combat "experience".

OTB

OTB, you are without doubt the voice of reason once again on the boards. Your answer was informative and intelligent, even though i agree with some of your points, i disagree with others.(Same with you Menno)
I'm too lazy to go back into it, but i reckon you all know what my points are by now.

[Ghetto Goose]

none of you guys kno what the hell ur talking about . just shut the hell up and watch and like and enjoy the video .

Yet I'm the one Killz Perpetually SDF's.