Lionheart skill progression

[Saint_Proverbius]

<strong>[ Game -> Update ]</strong> - More info on <a href="http://wikipocalypse.duckandcover.cx/in ... eart">Game: Lionheart</a>

<p>Our good pal <strong>Feargus Urquhart</strong> has posted a bit on how skill progression might be in <a href="http://lionheart.blackisle.com/">Lionheart</a>:

</p><blockquote><strong>Skill Progression</strong>: We've included a slightly different progression for skill points which is:

0 - 50 : 1
51 - 100 : 2
101 - 150: 5
151 - 200: 10
201 - 300: 20

This hasn't been tested at all yet, so we aren't sure if it feels right during actual play.

</blockquote>
Ouch, steep! This was spotted over at <a href="http://rpgplanet.com/lionheart/">Inquisition</a>.<p> </p><blockquote />

[OnTheBounce]

Ouch, steep!

No shit!

Maybe they should try something more along the lines of:

001 - 050 : 1
051 - 100 : 2
101 - 150: 3
151 - 200: 4
201 - 250: 5
251 - 300: 6

Unless they're looking at upping the SP allotment - which would make gaining at the early levels a bit too easy perhaps - I'm not sure this system will work very well. It'd definitely knock the Renaissance Man's dick in the dirt.

OTB

[Rosh]

Ouch, steep!

Agreed with that. There would have to be some serious skill points handed out for some reason about mid-early to middle of the game to even hope of getting 300 in one skill. Unless there is some "specialization" that does the effect of doubling a tag.

Let's see...I don't quite remember, but I do believe that INT 10 = 20 skill points per level.

Taking a skill from say...starting point of 50, let's work on this a bit more. I'm going to rough-estimate this a bit, as I don't care to nuke it out and I might have something mussed up as it's still "morning" for me.

Untagged:
Already, we're paying 2 points per increase for 51 and then onto 100. 51-100: 100 skill points, 5 levels to get a skill to 100 from 50, if you sunk everything into one skill.
101-150: 250 skill points needed. 12.5 levels.
151-200: 500 skill points needed. 25 levels.
201-300: 1000 skill points needed. 50 levels.

About 92.5 levels.

Tagged:
51-100: 50 skill points, 2.5 levels to get a skill to 100 from 50, if you sunk everything into one skill.
101-150: 125 skill points needed. 6.25 levels.
151-200: 250 skill points needed. 12.5 levels.
201-300: 500 skill points needed. 25 levels.

About 46.25 levels.

Basically, you might be able to get one skill really good, but be total crap in everything else, or be a jack of all trades and likely get your ass handed to you via being a bit less proficient at combat than you need to be (given that this is supposed to be an "action-RPG"). The sloping of the skill allotment kind of tends to lie in that way, without being good at two skills (much less 3 tagged). If it were upped to about 50 skill points per level, it would still run into the same difficulties while as OTB has mentioned, it will make the early levels a bit easier, and possibly still run into the same problems. The scaling hits a lump at 1/2 and then 3/4 of the scale. The only other way to alleviate this if it hasn't been done already in this manner, would be to increase the number of skill points given with the level, which isn't along the SPECIAL system, and leads to some questions of balance. It's easier to balance with one slope and one constant than two slopes.

Mind you, these figures are calculated with MAX INT, making any character under 10 a really bad decision. Also, it would be incredibly stupid to put any amount of skill points into untagged skills, which were halfway feasable in Fallout and Fallout 2. "brute melee" is now a myth, as even in Fallout you could play a decent dumb melee character of that sort, and Arcanum made abetter system in that aspect, in not relying on Int for skill. If they're using the SPECIAL system, then they're likely using Int to determine skill points, and yet again, if you want to get anywhere, you could see that an average Int character in scale to the figures above, is in essence, fucked.

Hey, does Falche.exe...I mean, Lionche.exe come with it, too?

[DarkUnderlord]

I presume they're using the old
100%, 200%, 300%?

I never understood that in Fallout. If a skill can go to 100%, have the max as 100%. Why this 200% and 300% business? If that's the case, why does it stop at all? Why not go to 500%, 700% or 1000%?

I always thought it'd be better if they just "100%" and that's IT. It makes more sense to me. Although they said the system hasn't been tested yet, so I'd expect it to change.

[Rosh]

More like proficiency scales than anything. 300% is the max, perhaps to make 100 proficient, 200 good, and 300 mastered.

I believe that Fallout did a 1:1 skill allotment to skill point for 1-100 untagged skills (tagged being 2x), and 2:1 for 100-200. Fo2 did 3 or 4 for every 1 point of skill, I forget which, it's been a while since I've played it.

The menthod they talk about for Lionheart is quite steep.

To put it into a 100% scale:

Fallout:
1-50%, you put one point in and get one point out, untagged.
50-100% you put two points in and get one point out.

Fallout 2:
1-33%, you put in one point and get one point out.
34-66%, you put in two points and get one point out.
67-100%, you put in three or four and get one point out.

Lionheart:
1-20%, you put in one point and get one point out.
21-40%, you put in two points and get one point out.
41-60%, you put in five points and get one point out.
61-80%, you put in ten points and get one point out.
81-100%, you put in twenty points and get one point out.

Notice how Lionheart doesn't increment, it doubles, and on a much steper scale.

[Section8]

This to me looks as though it's going to really encourage multiskilled characters, which is kind of prohibitive of replaying the game, when you've already done everything. The whole point of tags is to make the player think "Why should I assign points in untagged skills when I get much more value from tagged ones?" which is vital to archetyping characters.

[Walks with the Snails]

For the record, in FO2, when they began increasing the cost for skills over 100, it was 1 point up to 100, then 2 points to 125, 3 to 150, until it capped at 6 points. Getting a skill over 100 is mainly to negate penalties, since you have a maximum 95% chance of success. And you get skill points at 2 x Intelligence + 5, though since everyone and their dog gets gifted, which costs 5 skill points per level, 10 Int does usually mean 20 skill points.

This does seem awfully steep. It actually doesn't hurt the Renaissance man, it pretty much ensures everyone is going to be one by heavily penalizing specialists. For the price of raising one skill from 200 to 215, you can raise two skills from 0 to 100 or six skills from 0 to 50. I know which way I'd go. Tags to 150, all other skills to 50-100. I really doubt it will last, though, since he said it hasn't been tested. I kind of think whoever dreamed this scheme up really hadn't thought things through very well.

[DarkUnderlord]

More like proficiency scales than anything. 300% is the max, perhaps to make 100 proficient, 200 good, and 300 mastered.

Yeah.. I think it was something like that. Up to 100% improved overall accuracy. Over 100% increased your chances of making critical hits. I'd still prefer 100% to be the max... Or maybe something like 110% as an extra special "10%" for critical hits. For those people who put more than 100% effort into things. I always thought 200% and then 300% for FO2 was WAAAY too high.

Notice how Lionheart doesn't increment, it doubles, and on a much steper scale.

I get that now. Ouch! Surely they're going to change that (unless they really are stupid)? I can't see how that's going to play well.

though since everyone and their dog gets gifted

What!?! Get gifted and miss out on all those perks? NEVER!! I never got gifted.....

[Walks with the Snails]

What!?! Get gifted and miss out on all those perks? NEVER!! I never got gifted.....

You must be thinking of Skilled. That's the one that reduces your perks. It still wasn't a bad bargain, especially in FO1. Gifted just gives you +1 to all attributes for a skill penalty and reduced skill points per level, though.

[DarkUnderlord]

You must be thinking of Skilled. That's the one that reduces your perks. It still wasn't a bad bargain, especially in FO1. Gifted just gives you +1 to all attributes for a skill penalty and reduced skill points per level, though.

Ahhh... The other one. I never got that either.

[Ganymedes]

Well, to get the game playable, they'll either have to increase number of skill points pr. level OR increase the xp given for each action... Otherwise... Well, it's going to be a major bugger to reach 300%

[Saint_Proverbius]

More like proficiency scales than anything. 300% is the max, perhaps to make 100 proficient, 200 good, and 300 mastered.

I believe that Fallout did a 1:1 skill allotment to skill point for 1-100 untagged skills (tagged being 2x), and 2:1 for 100-200. Fo2 did 3 or 4 for every 1 point of skill, I forget which, it's been a while since I've played it.

100% is mastery under IDEAL circumstances. Everything over 100%(Well, 95%) goes towards offsetting penalties. For example, the skill fall off over distance, dark conditions, aimed shots, and so on.

Please allow me to make fun of you, DarkUnderlord, for not figuring that out!

[DarkUnderlord]

100% is mastery under IDEAL circumstances. Everything over 100%(Well, 95%) goes towards offsetting penalties. For example, the skill fall off over distance, dark conditions, aimed shots, and so on.

Please allow me to make fun of you, DarkUnderlord, for not figuring that out!

I think I did actually.....

Yeah.. I think it was something like that. Up to 100% improved overall accuracy. Over 100% increased your chances of making critical hits. I'd still prefer 100% to be the max... Or maybe something like 110% as an extra special "10%" for critical hits. For those people who put more than 100% effort into things. I always thought 200% and then 300% for FO2 was WAAAY too high.

So... Why did you quote Rosh?