Silver Style Gets Another Ex-Black Isle Employee

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:57 pm

Roll-Player wrote:Impressive, yes, but irrelevant as far as determining actual work.

Still, experience is experience? I mean, even though his games were all canned, he presumeably was able to learn from his own personal mistakes and experiences during the process?

Spazmo · Post by **Spazmo** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:21 pm

Not necessarily. How could he know what works and what doesn't without any player feedback? The game never even got to QA.

Role-Player · Post by **Role-Player** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:33 pm

Hopefuly, yes. However, my point is we can't judge what we didn't see. The experience he gained could've gone both ways, but his work was left unjudged with the cancellation of the games. Im not saying he gained or didn't gained experience; merely that whatever he gained was not translated into actual work that we could see and judge if it was good or not. Irrelevant as far as actual work; not as experience.

EvoG · Post by **EvoG** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:21 am

Franz_Schubert wrote:Still, experience is experience? I mean, even though his games were all canned, he presumeably was able to learn from his own personal mistakes and experiences during the process?

I've worked with people with 15 years experience yet they were not very good, or at least as good as you think one with such experience would.

Meaning...

Experience is great, but talent comes first.

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:25 am

Franz_Schubert wrote:Still, experience is experience? I mean, even though his games were all canned, he presumeably was able to learn from his own personal mistakes and experiences during the process?

Experience didn't stop Dave Maldonado from making Fell Wood in IWD2.

EvoG is correct. It's not something experience can really teach you. It's a knack. Sure, you can learn from your mistakes, but first you need to be able to recognise the mistakes you're making.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:58 pm

Or someone to point them. Those two games didn't get to the testing phase.

gomimin · Post by **gomimin** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:03 pm

Nationalism sucks, Racism sucks....even if you like fighting in games...sometimes i really wonder bout some narrow minded people here,
we want good games...let's be happy bout everyone who tries and celebrate when we got a real good game, whether developed on the american continent, europe or asia....and hello to those who are modding and mapping...or give informations like DAC....

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:14 pm

I like the way you think, gomimin.

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:23 pm

gomimin wrote:Nationalism sucks, Racism sucks....even if you like fighting in games...sometimes i really wonder bout some narrow minded people here,
we want good games...let's be happy bout everyone who tries and celebrate when we got a real good game, whether developed on the american continent, europe or asia....and hello to those who are modding and mapping...or give informations like DAC....

What the hell does the nationality of the developers have to do with anything? One of the best role playing games I played in 2002 was made in China. I enjoyed the hell out of Silent Storm, which was developed in Russia. I'm current enjoying the Sacred demo, which is made in Germany. I'm looking forward to Golden Land and Phase: Exodus, which are Russian.

In fact, I'm more included to look to Europe these days simply because they make turn based games, which I tend to like. They actually push envelopes rather than steam and restuff them like American developers are doing these days.

The big problem is that Silver Style isn't like the developers I mentioned. They're set in this Franco-American style of thinking where games have to be a certain way in order to sell.

Hertston · Post by **Hertston** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:36 am

Saint_Proverbius wrote:[The big problem is that Silver Style isn't like the developers I mentioned. They're set in this Franco-American style of thinking where games have to be a certain way in order to sell.

The really big problem is that they are almost certainly right, certainly with regard to the US market. How much of that is the market driving the games, and how much it's the games driving the market is an interesting question.

Either way that "style" currently dominates an industry becoming ever more polished and ever less creative and original. Personally, I think it's the increasing development time and costs that's really the cause... like many industries, the temptation to hedge with a "safe" option must be immense, especially when for many smaller houses one flop means kaput . There have been plenty of innovative, original and truly excellent games that nobody bought, precisely because they did deviate from the mainstream. Ironically, it seems to be the companies in a financial position to take a risk who are ever more increasingly reluctant to do so.

Inin · Post by **Inin** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:16 am

Hey Saint P-

What was the name of the RPG made in china that you liked? Info/link for us not in the know.

-Inin

Saint_Proverbius · Post by **Saint_Proverbius** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 5:45 am

Inin wrote:Hey Saint P-

What was the name of the RPG made in china that you liked? Info/link for us not in the know.

Prince of Qin.

http://www.strategyfirst.com/games/Game ... n=Overview

They made the mistake of hyping it as an action CRPG, which made a lot of people think it was a diablo clone. Multiplayer is pretty much a diablo clone, sure, but the single player is more about exploring the Ancient Chinese world, talking to people, learning things about Chinese schools of thought which can help solve quests later, and so on. Combat is only a small part of the game, really, and it's more like Baldur's Gate's combat.

Bobbin · Post by **Bobbin** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:38 am

Saint_Proverbius wrote:Prince of Qin.

Looks interesting, thanks for the hint.

Saint_Proverbius wrote:The big problem is that Silver Style isn't like the developers I mentioned. They're set in this Franco-American style of thinking where games have to be a certain way in order to sell.

If that would be the case they wouldn't do a PC-only RPG

No, really, I see where you're coming from. They aren't doing TB although they admit it's the best combat system. Same case with BIS. But for me it's just a compromise. RT just sells better, sad but true. And SSE are trying to do RT the most tactical way possible. And you mentioned Sacred: It is a nice game but then again it's just Diablo all the way. I think Sacred is a much better example of making games in a guaranteed-to-succeed way.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:48 pm

How does it sell better? I'd think making a console port would be the way to get as much money as possible.

Slaughter · Post by **Slaughter** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:10 pm

Megatron wrote:How does it sell better? I'd think making a console port would be the way to get as much money as possible.

Youngsters these days often does not have the patience for TB games. They have grown up with the cursed Playstation and thus believe that is what gaming is all about. Put them in front of Fallout, and they will stop after killing the first rat. "This is boring" they'll say, and good luck talking sense to one of them.

If you look at it, even a game like Silent Storm, that has such an INCREDIBLE engine, has trouble selling. They draw in more of these kids because they are very uptaken by graphics, but for the most part it will probably not be a hit. "Good sales in Russia" some say. What they do not realize is that Russia is ALL about piracy. You can buy pirated games in most stores, and only the major cities like Moscow have many legit stores. So "good sales in Russia" does not mean commercial success, believe me. (my cousin were there for a year, and he had trouble finding original games)

Console is the way to go to make quick money, but believe it or not that isn't all that SSE is after. If they were, they would make a BG:DA type of action game. They have chosen the combat system as a compromise, one that will allow RT fans to play it almost like a RT game, and that will appeal enough to many TB fans to enjoy the game. If the rest of the game holds the expected quality that is.

EvoG · Post by **EvoG** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:49 pm

Whats funny is no one here mentions the final fantasy series...the most successful TURN BASED console rpg's around(consider they're in japan as well as US, have endless sequels and everyone buys them). And to add to that, I believe that dang blasted magic the gathering game is TB, most japanese RPG's are TB and some Digimon games. . Again, you guys slam on the console gamers but go play FF and figure out all there inventory combinations to create X weapon with Y spell effect and its far from trivial.

Its all about the presentation that greatly adds to the appeal.

Anyway, on topic, I find it a tad silly when these companies have press releases announcing "so and so" who nobody ever heard of is joining their team and is an "industry leader" in whatever it is they do yet have nothing to show for this 'leading of the industry'. It smacks of a commercial move rather than development one, thinking that, in this case, ex-BIS guy(s) would influence the community towards their 'game'.

Hertston · Post by **Hertston** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:08 pm

Yeah, I love a good conspiracy theory too

The guy was in need of a job. As Jeff had previously worked on the RPGs at Black Isle (including on a post-apoc RPG, canned or not) SSE thought he might be able to contribute a little more than the 1001 other unemployed games designers out there without that experience, and offered him one. For all we know, Jeff might even have asked for one or just mailed them his CV.

Either way, having employed him SSE "announced" their new staff member giving the same sort of details every other frigging development company would in similar circumstances.

All it "smacks" of to me is a mutually beneficial arrangement being sniped at here for no good reason.

Role-Player · Post by **Role-Player** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:23 pm

Hertston wrote:Either way, having employed him SSE "announced" their new staff member giving the same sort of details every other frigging development company would in similar circumstances.

I don't remember many companies highlighting cancelled projects as a detail necessary to the public. You don't see Obsidian claiming their past experience includes TORN.

EvoG · Post by **EvoG** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:26 pm

Riiiight. And all this talk of Fallout3 and the Fall in the same sentence EVERYTIME SSE opens there mouths is just a coincidence? Yea the beneficial arrangement is "look we got FALLOUT 3 guys working with us on the FALL".

Anyway give me a break dude, I've worked in this industry for 8 years, and you only announce new staff members if they're SIGNIFICANT(i.e. someones heard of them). You just don't announce every friggin employee that joins a dev team.

Besides, if you were a real designer worth your salt, why the heck work for a no name company in Europe versus heading straight to your local headhunter(all of us has one) and get a 'real' job in the US? Maybe you're not having any luck finding a real gig here in the states? Maybe your street cred isn't worth anything to get you work at another large company.

So if THATS the case, then why would SSE see value in these guys as designers but no one else does? FALLOUT 3.

If they truly were getting other job offers here, they'd more than likely snatch them up since thats more secure than a long distance relationship for the duration of the final developement leg of some euro-game.

Slaughter · Post by **Slaughter** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:02 am

EvoG wrote:Riiiight. And all this talk of Fallout3 and the Fall in the same sentence EVERYTIME SSE opens there mouths is just a coincidence? Yea the beneficial arrangement is "look we got FALLOUT 3 guys working with us on the FALL".

Why wouldn't they? As Carsten says, he and the others working at SSE are great Fallout fans. And The Fall is inspired by Fallout, I think no one ever denied that. And even though it may not count for anyone else, many Fallout fans will be delighted that people who worked on Fallout now work on The Fall. One of SSE's main target customers are of course Fallout fans.

EvoG wrote:Anyway give me a break dude, I've worked in this industry for 8 years, and you only announce new staff members if they're SIGNIFICANT(i.e. someones heard of them). You just don't announce every friggin employee that joins a dev team.

And for quite a few Fallout fans this IS a big deal...

EvoG wrote:Besides, if you were a real designer worth your salt, why the heck work for a no name company in Europe versus heading straight to your local headhunter(all of us has one) and get a 'real' job in the US? Maybe you're not having any luck finding a real gig here in the states? Maybe your street cred isn't worth anything to get you work at another large company.

So if THATS the case, then why would SSE see value in these guys as designers but no one else does? FALLOUT 3.

If they truly were getting other job offers here, they'd more than likely snatch them up since thats more secure than a long distance relationship for the duration of the final developement leg of some euro-game.

First of all, SSE offered the ex BISers jobs very soon after Interplay did the genius move. Second, maybe they find it a bit more interesting working with a "no name company in Europe", that is working on something slightly related to Fallout, than with "Sims: Another durned expansion". Third, maybe SSE offered good terms, because they thought the Fallout fans would be happy about this.

In general, what is wrong with SSE trying to "flirt" with the Fallout fans? They are making a post apocalyptic RPG that is inspired by Fallout. So all of us doesn't agree with all their decisions, like the combat system, but we should still be happy they are making the game. Why are you so insistent on attacking one of the few developers that is making something even remotely similar to Fallout? Take a look at the poll at the front page. It is obvious that quite a few fans are happy about the possibility of SSE getting the Fallout license.

Off topic, may I ask where you work? And on what games you have worked. Just curious