jetbaby wrote:Thats just the point, Menno. A utopian society in which we don't need. A place where everyone isn't out to extract every single penny they can because money makes the world better.
Like I said, if you so strongly believe what you say, please hand over all your excess money. If you advocate such a society, you should be willing to part with what doesn't matter to you. Why don't you? Because you have what's inherent in all humans, we're naturally greedy. You can scream at the top of your lungs, brainwash children at the youngest age, write countless novels/works professing your ideal society, but you're still left with that natural greed. Greed comes in many forms; taking away money, property, or "needs" does not take away greed. Example: The Spartans, who had no money, were alotted land, and were considered equal Peers, had a "greed" for glory in battle. Those who achieved greater glory had greater respect.
And, no, last I checked no one had the right to strip the citizenship of an American without rhyme nor reason as the Patriot Acts state. I'm not bitching about losing my rights and freedoms. I'm bitching about the government abusing theirs.
As I stated earlier, pretty much all of the Patriot Act's powers were used in trials LONG before the act came to being [in some cases 20-30 years ago]. If you have a problem with that, that's fine and its your opinion. But your problem doesn't lie within the Patriot Act, because even without it most of these powers were in use already; your problem lies with the fact that some of these methods are used. The Patriot Act is merely the scapegoat in this case. I've read and seen some of the scare tactics associated with the Patriot Act, and alot of it is truly pathetic.
And your little story about my daughter and that town is close, but no. Imagine it relatively close, but instead of simply watching the whites, we grab them and throw them into a wall screaming about how they took a child.
You're talking about abuse, not profiling. I'll give you a real life example where I was profiled. My cousin lives in Closter, New Jersey. A very nice area with expensive housing [pretty much everyone makes over $100,000 to $200,000 dollars a year]. I drive down there a few times a year in my shitty piece of crap car. Sometimes I wait outside their house in my car waiting to pick him up. Pretty much every time I do though, a police car pulls over next to me patrolling the area. Why? Because my piece of shit car sticks out like a sore thumb and doesn't fit the "norm" of the area. So the Poice Officer rolls down his window and asks what I'm doing here, and I tell him, and then asks for my drivers license/ID and I oblige. Checks it out, hands it back to me, and its done.
Did I do anything suspicious? No, I was just in a car parked in front of a house, like many others in the area. The only difference was my car was a piece of junk compared to the others. I was profiled based on the fact that I was "poorer" than the rest. Am I offended? No, because unlike many, I don't live in fantasy land and I know how the real world works; in that a person who sticks out like a sore thumb by nature is regarded with suspicion. In fact I wish my area was kept under an alert eye. Anyway, the whole thing took less than a minute and a half. I get inconvenienced by far more things in life than that brief minute and a half to check out my ID.
I was profiled based upon my wealth [or lack thereof]. What's the difference between that and OMG RACIALLY profiled? Except one sounds more taboo than the other.
Gagged and bagged was more of a reference to overseas, more than here.
Oh heaven forbid they had a bag placed over their head. Oh I'm so going to cry now [sarcasm]. Those "gagged and bagged" had better treatment and conditions then we soldiers got, so please cut the pity bullshit with them already. In fact some of them didn't even want to leave. Alot of the guys the company I belonged to rounded up were pure scum; I'm so sorry that they had to undergo the indignity of having a bag placed over their head for a brief amount of time.
Profiling is good, but not RACIAL profiling. Profiling based on true threats, such as contacts. If you are traveling into another country from a heavily extremist muslim area, then by god, search the man. But if you are a 75 year old slavic woman who has lived her whole life in and out of a hospital, and barely cuts four foot ten, and you are searched four times in one flight, there is something VERY wrong with that.
So you're advocating searching a man who comes from an extremist area because he's Muslim and/or comes from an region that has extremist views, but not the 75 yearr old Slavic woman? Excuse me, but that IS racial profiling then. And I agree about how absurd it was to check her out 4 times [I'm guessing it's based upon something that really happened] but chalk that up to stupidity of the security force and/or profiling for the wrong things.
And since we are near to the subject, what makes you such an adamant supporter of the western world?
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.
-Benjamin Franklin
Beautiful quotes, but unfortunately they don't apply to the Western world in all their context. I won't address your first one, because the economic debate has been done countless times before here on DAC and I don't want to bunch it up with this profiling debate. If you really want to discuss that though, by all means make another thread and I'll give you my views.
However I will address your second quote. Ben Franklin was absolutely right. But Franklin's words only ring true if there were no such thing as government. You CANNOT have a working Government without giving up certain liberties and freedoms. We, the people, entitle our governments with certain powers and in the process give up select freedoms/liberties, which is fine because it's done with OUR consent.
To give you several examples where Amerikkkans [and most of this applies globally] give up freedom/liberties in exchange for security:
- Fingerprinting. When we are born, we're fingerprinted as you know. The main reason being for identification. The government has my fingerprints on file now, violating my privacy. With those fingerprint records, the government can tell whether or not I touched something and who I really am. But how many crimes have been solved because of the use of fingerprinting? So in this case, exhanging my right for personal privacy for security to the benefit of others was a good thing.
- Social Security Number and License Plates. Again, more references to identification. I have to walk around with a permanent ID number and drive around with a number/letter code on the back and front of my car. With the proper means, someone can tell where I live just by checking out my license plate number, or steal my identity if they knew my SS #. In both cases, my right to privacy was again violated. But if someone commits a crime with a vehicle [let's say a hit-and-run] there's a chance of catching the perp because of those license plates. So again, I gave up certain aspects to my right to privacy in exchange for security.
- Firearm Background Checks/Regulations. You cannot just go into a gun shop now and buy all the guns you want [except maybe you guys living in the hick states]. This conflicts with our 2nd amendment rights: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,
shall not be infringed [emphasis added] When you go purchase a gun, you have to undergo a background check in most cases among other things. Let's say an angsty 21 year old walks into a gun shop to buy a OMG NEW PHAT gun. The owner of the shop does a background check and finds out that our angsty 21 year old has had numerous infractions with the law, in some cases for violent crimes and even rape. The owner refuses to sell him the gun after viewing his background. Our angsty 21 year old's second amendment right was blatantly violated, for his right SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED, yet it was. However, by keeping a gun out of this guy's hands who had such a troubled past, many argue that it would have been a good thing. So in this case we exchanged a portion of our second amendment right to bear arms in exchange for security.
- Luggage Screening. Again, violating your personal privacy in exchange for security.
- Search Warrants. Giving the authorities the legal means to enter your home and search through your belongings. To get this post over with, we exchange some of our right to privacy in return for security.
I could go on all day if you'd like. To have security, which is vital for a society, you must give up certain liberties. From the Ancient Greeks to the Romans to the United States, no matter what government. The most important thing being that it is done with OUR consent, whether through us directly or our representatives.
Anyway, getting back to profiling, YES there are abuses that occur under racial profiling. But those are ABUSES and not because of profiling in itself. All the aforementioned things I said above can and have been abused numerous times before [search warrants to the wrong house or excessive damage to the premises]. But to say Racial profiling leads to racism is the same as saying me wounding someone with a rifle leads me to be trigger-happy in all my future firefights, or women who dress seductively leads to sexual assault. They are ABUSES; not inherent. You punish the abusers.
There are drawbacks for every fundamental right, privilege, and policy we have in this country. The same goes for racial profiling. I disagree with JJ and Jetbaby on this topic, and I'm not trying to change there mind because they bring up valid points as well. The purpose of this reply isn't to change their mind, but for those who haven't made up their mind on this issue to ascertain which side makes more sense to them.
