That Was A Quick Run

[Bobbin]

Wooooooo. Thanks Saint for opening this again, now I can give Bobbins a hint as to what DaC would like him to do.

Wow, YOU can give me a hint of what DAC would like me to do. Seems you already feel part of the community with your 56 posts and parroting the admins opinions. Well, it's pretty comforting not having to make one's own mind. I can understand why Killzig doesn't like Carsten. I can understand why EvoG doesn't like The Fall. But why do you think The Fall sucks?

[SDMVersion3]

I am a product of my enviroment, afterall. It just wouldn't be DaC if everyone didn't have the same unjustified opinions.

Don't let my 56 posts fool you. Theres other SDM's hanging around here somewhere.

Besides... 56... that's like 4 times your noble post count of 14, beyond which, it's been established that post counts are not indicative of a persons worthiness to the board.

In short, does it ever occur to you that instead of trying to come over and prove that the Fall is a good game, you should actually, gee, I dunno, work on it a little?

You're wasting time here. You're not going to "Convert" anyone.

Talk is cheap.

[Slave_Master]

But why do you think The Fall sucks?

Why do you think you should be welcomed with open arms for simply spouting "lol u agree with admins u sheep" instead of addressing peoples' arguments?

[Bobbin]

Why do you think you should be welcomed with open arms for simply spouting "lol u agree with admins u sheep" instead of addressing peoples' arguments?

Arguments? Which arguments? "This game sucks", do you call that an argument. Here are some of the arguments which lead to all the bashing:

"Carsten asks for suggestions but in fact doesn't care about them."

Looking at the latest screenshots SSE tweaked the interface, according to users suggestions. Not to the extent you wanted it to be tweaked, but then again DAC is not the whole world.

"Carsten uses the name of Fallout 3 for marketing reasons."

Well, he was ASKED in an interview about it and answered the question - unbelievable. He made a statement on their own board about it. He also mentioned Fallout 3 on Jeffs and Puuks resumees, which is simply the truth.

"The graphics of The Fall are pure shit."

Describing yourself as hardcore-RPG fans and moaning about the graphics seems a bit strange. The first screenshots of Phase Exodus don't look great either but no one starts to bash it. I personally like the graphics despite their problems in the department of character models and lack of eye-candy effects. However, they render vast environments and that's what I feel is most important about RPGs.

"RT is shit, Carsten is only after the money because he admits TB is better and doesn't implement it."

Carsten wants to make money, so what. He does a CRPG and not a console Hack'n Slay so he's probably not a money whore like good old Herve. And looking at the last RPGs I played (Planescape: Torment, Arcanum, Gothic) none of them used TB and they still were fun. For now the combat system sounds good and way more tactical as in the games I
mentioned.

"He bashed Nival just to convince us TB is not financially viable anymore"

I think he went a bit too far with this. Although S2 really wasn't a great success it didn't fail either. So the truth is between saying S2 did great and it failed.

I admit that I like The Fall. It has problems in the graphics department, it doesn't support EAX and it looks a bit too clean for a pa game. It implements no REALLY new ideas but all I read about on the gamerswithjobs.com preview sounded just fine. They even include some of the short stories and NPCs members of the community created, I just don't get what is wrong about that. Well, I really look forward to it and will do my judgement AFTER having played it.

Besides... 56... that's like 4 times your noble post count of 14, beyond which, it's been established that post counts are not indicative of a persons worthiness to the board.

But then again I don't use "WE" in my posts

[S4ur0n27]

Bobbins did you actually read the thread in which Carsten asked our input on his interface?

[Grimnar]

"Well, I really look forward to it and will do my judgement AFTER having played it. "


Oh really ? Apart from telling "us" we shouldnt bash the game before trying it, i think its safe to say you have allready judged the game as something positive.

Hows that for double standards?

[Bobbin]

Bobbins did you actually read the thread in which Carsten asked our input on his interface?

Yes, I read the whole damn thread. Except that Carsten exaggerated a bit concerning S2 and Nival I couldn't decipher what makes you so pissed about him.

Oh really ? Apart from telling "us" we shouldnt bash the game before trying it, i think its safe to say you have allready judged the game as something positive.

Good point. Yes, as I said, I'm looking forward to it. The RPG aspects SEEM to implemented well, so why should I bash it? I just ask myself why you aren't bashing the other upcoming games DAC covers. You don't like the graphics, that's okay. What else is it that sucks so much about The Fall?

[Slave_Master]

Arguments? Which arguments? "This game sucks", do you call that an argument

"lol u agree with the admins", do you call that an argument?

"Carsten asks for suggestions but in fact doesn't care about them."

Fact.

Looking at the latest screenshots SSE tweaked the interface, according to users suggestions. Not to the extent you wanted it to be tweaked, but then again DAC is not the whole world.

Using the suggestions after he flamed and ridiculed ("If I asked ten different people I'd get ten different answer" -- never mind that at that point around that many people told him the interface blew chunks) the people who suggested them?

"Carsten uses the name of Fallout 3 for marketing reasons."

Fact.

Well, he was ASKED in an interview about it and answered the question - unbelievable. He made a statement on their own board about it. He also mentioned Fallout 3 on Jeffs and Puuks resumees, which is simply the truth

It's called exaggerating, look it up in the dickshunerry. Seeing "WE HAVE HIRED *insert former BIS janitor*, GREAT DESIGNER OF THE GREAT FALLOUT 3" every other week can't be seen as anything other than name-dropping, especially since the relevance of Puuk's work on an unreleased game has been discussed and found to be nil.

"The graphics of The Fall are pure shit."

Fact.

Describing yourself as hardcore-RPG fans and moaning about the graphics seems a bit strange. The first screenshots of Phase Exodus don't look great either but no one starts to bash it. I personally like the graphics despite their problems in the department of character models and lack of eye-candy effects. However, they render vast environments and that's what I feel is most important about RPGs.

The fact that graphics are a large part of a game, and it wasn't the only complaint many people filed notwithstanding, I'd like to see you actually address the argument that the graphics blow instead of pointing to other games and sniveling about how we, as "hardcore-RPG fans", should embrace the shitty graphics in The Fall.

Carsten wants to make money, so what. He does a CRPG and not a console Hack'n Slay so he's probably not a money whore like good old Herve. And looking at the last RPGs I played (Planescape: Torment, Arcanum, Gothic)

And how many of those CRPG's were runaway financial successes? I daresay none! RT does not necessarily equal le ca$h, as Proverbius has demonstrated earlier.

none of them used TB and they still were fun.

Waitta sec, I thought a minute ago Cartman "want[ed] to make money, so what". Still, that's what, three decent real-time games, compared to dozens and dozens of Baldur's Gate and Diablo knock-offs that both sucked ass, and failed financially?

For now the combat system sounds good and way more tactical as in the games I
mentioned

That's nice, but your opinion isn't fact.

I think he went a bit too far with this. Although S2 really wasn't a great success it didn't fail either. So the truth is between saying S2 did great and it failed.

I will agree that Cartman Strehse's smearing of Silent Storm was laughable, but this too has already been discussed.

Well, I really look forward to it and will do my judgement AFTER having played it.

Past performances are very good indicators of future performances when it comes to the game design field. Let's take a look at some of SSE's other products instead of digging our heads in the sand and praying the game will be good, shall we?

Gorasul: Sucked ass.

Soldiers of Anarchy: Sucked ass.

Bullshit spin-doctoring aside, I'm willing to bet that The Fall will, in fact, also suck ass.

But then again I don't use "WE" in my posts

But then again you do use "YOU" in a reference to everybody on DAC in your posts

In any case, thanks for proving my point. In your post you didn't bring anything new to the table, because all of that stuff had already been discussed. So you resorted to the next best thing -- bullshit red herrings, with several scoops of whining on top.

[Grimnar]

Im seriously done with expecting anything from games and developers.
Seeing as i dont like several aspects of the game at first glance, i dont feel theres any reason for me to try and find good stuff about it. There is a slight possibility i will be let down by the end result once again.

I can admit its a way of protecting myself from being let down, but a very effective one.

I think everyone who truly loves Fallout knows what it means to be let down, over and over and ove ... you know the drill.

[Phias]

Bobbin, "this sucks" can officially be called an argument, since so many people have already elaborated on "why this sucks". We've seen screenshots, we've heard just about all we need to hear to be just about absolutely sure that the Fall will suck ass.

"I admit that I like The Fall. It has problems in the graphics department, it doesn't support EAX and it looks a bit too clean for a pa game. It implements no REALLY new ideas but all I read about on the gamerswithjobs.com preview sounded just fine."

Doesn't this just about make anything you say invalid and inane? You just contradicted yourself about 2 times before this as well.

You should also be aware of the fact that many of the members of DaC have industry experience. We've seen games like it before, and we've seen them fail miserably, no matter how good the concept was, or how good the screenshots appeared to be.

Oh, and by the way, Arcanum did indeed implement TB, it just wasn't the default option. And no one liked PS:T for it's combat anyway.

[Bobbin]

Using the suggestions after he flamed and ridiculed ("If I asked ten different people I'd get ten different answer" -- never mind that at that point around that many people told him the interface blew chunks) the people who suggested them?

I just read the thread once again. Still fun to see how things can get out of hands. I don't think he really used suggestions from that thread as the only one trying to add some of them was Killzig. All others jumped in, which I can understand because Carsten started to talk badly of TB, which is a no-no around here. However, there were six people saying that they didn't like the interface. The main problem here was that you probably expected him to say Amen to every suggestion you mad.

It's called exaggerating, look it up in the dickshunerry. Seeing "WE HAVE HIRED *insert former BIS janitor*, GREAT DESIGNER OF THE GREAT FALLOUT 3" every other week can't be seen as anything other than name-dropping, especially since the relevance of Puuk's work on an unreleased game has been discussed and found to be nil.

Okay, at that time he pulled off marketing stunts. However, I still don't think it was a bad idea to hire someone who as experience with pa stuff. It's not like Tim Cain was available (and SSE could afford him ).
Having to tell everyone about it was unnecessary, but then again I saw much worse going on in the games industry (e.g. using a brand to sell shit games).

The fact that graphics are a large part of a game, and it wasn't the only complaint many people filed notwithstanding, I'd like to see you actually address the argument that the graphics blow instead of pointing to other games and sniveling about how we, as "hardcore-RPG fans", should embrace the shitty graphics in The Fall.

That's funny, because in that well-known thread everyone liked the graphics except the interface and avatars.

And how many of those CRPG's were runaway financial successes? I daresay none! RT does not necessarily equal le ca$h, as Proverbius has demonstrated earlier.

Let's not go into RT vs. TB finance-wise again. Still I gotta ask you why SSE develops a CRPG if the only thing they're after is the money.

Waitta sec, I thought a minute ago Cartman "want[ed] to make money, so what". Still, that's what, three decent real-time games, compared to dozens and dozens of Baldur's Gate and Diablo knock-offs that both sucked ass, and failed financially?

Yes, he needs (sorry, wrong verb I used before) to make money so he doesn't go the IPLY way. And if you are doing a CRPG you need to be even more careful about the way you do it.

Past performances are very good indicators of future performances when it comes to the game design field. Let's take a look at some of SSE's other products instead of digging our heads in the sand and praying the game will be good, shall we?

Never prayed it will be good. Just saying I don't understand why people suddenly jumped the bandwagon that it will suck.
Past performances were Gorasul which scored 59% averagely. Then SOA made 72% (there were a lot complaints about the unpausable combat which had been adressed in Europe and via a patch). Seems they learned something.

Bullshit spin-doctoring aside, I'm willing to bet that The Fall will, in fact, also suck ass.

Well, I bet it will score more than 75% on gamerankings. Willing to take on that bet?

But then again you do use "YOU" in a reference to everybody on DAC in your posts

Yes, because opionion-wise most seem on the same level here (and it got even worse, looking at the thread that started it all there were still quite some people around who had a more neutral position).

Oh, and by the way, Arcanum did indeed implement TB, it just wasn't the default option.

Damn, you are right, I even played it that way. I wonder what would happen if TF implemented that option...

Doesn't this just about make anything you say invalid and inane? You just contradicted yourself about 2 times before this as well.

All I said was that the game has some problems. But of all the problems I brought up aren't critical. I could even bring up some problems I had with Fallout. And it's not like I contradicted myself, I just try not to see only one side of the story.

I'll close with a sentence of Mad Max which summed it up pretty good: "If you already decided to buy the game you're a moron. But if you already decided it's gonna be shit then you're a jerk."

[Bobbin]

Sorry.

[Bobbin]

Sorry.

[Bobbin]

Sorry. Page gave me 404 all the time, didn't see it reached the database.

[Slave_Master]

The main problem here was that you probably expected him to say Amen to every suggestion you made.

Expecting people to follow rather obvious suggestions? Well I never!

but then again I saw much worse going on in the games industry (e.g. using a brand to sell shit games).

Again, what other companies/people do is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

That's funny, because in that well-known thread everyone liked the graphics except the interface and avatars.

"The graphics of The Fall are pure shit."

Describing yourself as hardcore-RPG fans and moaning about the graphics seems a bit strange.

Which one is it?

Let's not go into RT vs. TB finance-wise again. Still I gotta ask you why SSE develops a CRPG if the only thing they're after is the money.

Carsten wants to make money, so what.

Which one is it?

Yes, he needs (sorry, wrong verb I used before) to make money so he doesn't go the IPLY way. And if you are doing a CRPG you need to be even more careful about the way you do it.

Careful? As opposed to a BG knockoff and a FOT knockoff, followed by an FO knockoff?

Never prayed it will be good. Just saying I don't understand why people suddenly jumped the bandwagon that it will suck.

Just saying that I don't understand why people suddenly jumped on the bandwagon that it won't suck.

Past performances were Gorasul which scored 59% averagely. Then SOA made 72% (there were a lot complaints about the unpausable combat which had been adressed in Europe and via a patch). Seems they learned something.

To make the combat realtime+pause? Well gee, that makes a world of difference; I guess the game will be great after all.

Well, I bet it will score more than 75% on gamerankings. Willing to take on that bet?

A good ranking on gamerankings.com does not necessarily correlate to high quality in a game.

Yes, because opionion-wise most seem on the same level here

Again, you mean that people with alike opinions would post on the same message board?!

(and it got even worse, looking at the thread that started it all there were still quite some people around who had a more neutral position

A short period of cogitation would reveal that maybe, just maybe, these neutral folks got turned off by Strehse's antics.

Damn, you are right, I even played it that way. I wonder what would happen if TF implemented that option...

It would suck even harder. Say what you will about turnbased or realtime combat, but an RT/TB hybrid bastardizes both.

All I said was that the game has some problems. But of all the problems I brought up aren't critical. I could even bring up some problems I had with Fallout.

So? Exactly what the fuck does Fallout have to do with The Fall, other than suspiciously alike names and Carsten's repeated name-dropping?

And it's not like I contradicted myself, I just try not to see only one side of the story.

Explain how that fits your viewpoint of "The Fall looks great, and everybody who disagrees is obviously just conforming to Killian's opinion".

I'll close with a sentence of Mad Max which summed it up pretty good: "If you already decided to buy the game you're a moron. But if you already decided it's gonna be shit then you're a jerk."

I disagree.

If I decide the game is shit, I either get proven right (good) or I'm pleasantly surprised (good) should the game turn out to not be ass.

If I decide the game is good, I either get proven right (good) or horrendously disappointed (bad).

If I make no choice either way, I either get pleasantly surprised (good) or find out the game is shit and don't buy it (neutral).

Deciding the game is shit has the most possible good outcomes.

[Role-Player]

All others jumped in, which I can understand because Carsten started to talk badly of TB, which is a no-no around here.

I don't see how that is a no-go around here. There are people here who like TB just as much as RT; and some are able to, despite prefering TB, admit that RT has its own uses and appeal.

However, there were six people saying that they didn't like the interface. The main problem here was that you probably expected him to say Amen to every suggestion you mad.

Not accepting suggestions is understandable. We're not the center of the world. However telling us you'll take our criticism and/or feedback very seriouly, but then rejecting it without putting forth much of an excuse for it is what probably got all them fanatics riled up.

Okay, at that time he pulled off marketing stunts. (...) Having to tell everyone about it was unnecessary, but then again I saw much worse going on in the games industry (e.g. using a brand to sell shit games).

Just because everyone is doing it doesn't mean we should be apathic and apologetic towards it.

I'll close with a sentence of Mad Max which summed it up pretty good: "If you already decided to buy the game you're a moron. But if you already decided it's gonna be shit then you're a jerk."

So, that would make most people here jerks, and you a quasi-moron? :confused2:

[Bobbin]

Well, this is becoming a ping-pong game. You obviously don't like TF and Carsten for your very own reasons. As an avid RPG fan I'm looking forward to it because I like a rich world and the outlook of encountering my own NPCs in it. I still think you should at least look at this game without prejudices but then again this is totally up to you.

[S4ur0n27]

Did you just realize nobody here likes TF? We are, for most, avid RPG fans. But a game being an RPG doesn't it's good. And TF looks like shit, I think we went over that a couple of times already.

[Hertston]

Did you just realize nobody here likes TF? We are, for most, avid RPG fans. But a game being an RPG doesn't it's good. And TF looks like shit, I think we went over that a couple of times already.

How can "nobody here like TF" (likewise how can anybody "like" it)? Nobody here has played it !!

The only difference between Bobbin and myself and (many of) the rest of you is that we are at least willing to wait and find out before mouthing off. It just make sense to me that someone trying to produce a post-apoc RPG (I happen to like post-apoc RPGs) deserves some encouragement. If it's crap, c`est la vie... back to the store and nothing lost. But maybe it just might be a great new game for "avid RPG fans", hmm ?

[Slave_Master]

How can "nobody here like TF" (likewise how can anybody "like" it)? Nobody here has played it !!

The only difference between Bobbin and myself and (many of) the rest of you is that we are at least willing to wait and find out before mouthing off.

Mouthing off? As opposed to stalwartly defending a game that you admit you have not played?

It just make sense to me that someone trying to produce a post-apoc RPG (I happen to like post-apoc RPGs) deserves some encouragement.

Bullshit. A game's [potential] quality is completely unrelated to its setting.

If it's crap, c`est la vie... back to the store and nothing lost. But maybe it just might be a great new game for "avid RPG fans", hmm ?

In which case you should be content to let the evil FO fanatic meanies stew in their pit and discover upon TF's release that it is quite good -- yet you repeatedly insist on defending the game. Yay for hypocrisy!