The AK74 is a nice gun

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slapshot
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The AK74 is a nice gun

Post by slapshot »

While Kalashnikov himself hates the AK74's 5.45 X 39mm ammunition that his creation was retooled for the fact remains that the 5.45 ammo does have some advantages over the old 123 grain 7.62X39mm ammunition that the AK47 is chambered for.

Lethality: The 5.45 x 39's projectile appears to be quite long but there is a void at the very tip of the projectile that deforms upon impact causing the projectile to destabilize when it hits meat. In a way it operates a bit like an expanding bullet causing the projectile to chop a bigger wound channel through the target. It is important to note that this highly lethal round is completely legal under the hague and geneva conventions since it is a FMJ.

Trajectory: The 5.45 x 39mm has a much flatter trajectory than the 7.62X39 mm round and this translates into a longer ranged POA-POI battelsight setting. The AK74 is also a little easier to control on full automatic than the AK47. However the 7.62 x 39mm ammo boasts a little more punch and better penetration at ranges beyond ~ 200 meters.

The 5.45 x 39mm ammo is superior to the SS109 5.56mm NATO ammunition in lethality but not in penetration.

Kalashnikov proposed that the AK74 be chambered for a higher performance 7.62 x 39 mm round of his own design but little is known (at least to me) about the performance of this interesting round. Does anyone have any information on the round that Kalashnikov proposed?

For my FOT games with altered weapons I boost the min max damage up a bit for the AK74 to min15 max 30 and kicked up the magazine capacity to 40 since there are 40 round magazines for the AK74. I also increased the number of rounds fired in a burst to 6.

slapshot :joy:
Last edited by slapshot on Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ExtremeDrinker »

You should have added this to one of the other 48 gun threads instead of posting a new message..There was one about 2 days ago that's still on this front page.

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Post by airsoft guy »

There are 40 round magazines available for the 7.62x39 varients, I'm looking at one on my SAR right now, they're pretty common.
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Post by Wolfman Walt »

I'm more of a Heckler & Koch type of person for Assault rifles. I still think the SKS is a great rifle though. I still like the AK 47 better then the 74. Most russian soldiers probably agree with me as alot of soldiers at the time weren't happy with the in-battle results of the 74.
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Post by slapshot »

ExtremeDrinker wrote:You should have added this to one of the other 48 gun threads instead of posting a new message..There was one about 2 days ago that's still on this front page.
Sorry, won't happen again, I'll do the search thing in the future.

slapshot
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Post by slapshot »

Wolfman Walt wrote:I'm more of a Heckler & Koch type
nothing beats the delayed roller block action of the HK, I love my 91 and 93. The things simply dont know how to malfunction. :joy:


Note I talked to a few Russian hombres at NTC that liked the 74 only because they could pack about 30% more ammo than they could with the AK47. what they did like about AK47 over the AKM and AK74 was the higher quality of the AK47 with its machined reciever. For them it was a bit like talking a mans M14 and replacing it with an M16A1 I think.

slapshot
Last edited by slapshot on Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jetbaby »

ExtremeDrinker wrote:Don't worry..I'm not really a mod. I'm just an asshole.
Haha, nice ED, nice. I want to purchase a '47 for myself some day. Some day.
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Re: The AK74 rules

Post by Kashluk »

slapshot wrote:Kalashnikov proposed that the AK74 be chambered for a higher performance 7.62 x 39 mm round of his own design but little is known (at least to me) about the performance of this interesting round. Does anyone have any information on the round that Kalashnikov proposed?
Image

Here's a fancy photo of all kinds of 7.62x39mm military rifle rounds.

Link to some fancy facts: http://www.sovietarmy.com/ammunition/7.62x39.html
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Re: The AK74 rules

Post by Viktor »

slapshot wrote:Blah AK74 am best gun evar blah...
Where did you read this rubbish? Even the Russians are moving to other 7.62x39 weapons platforms because of the shoddy build quality of the AK74 series and the piss poor battlefield performance of the 5.45x39 round!
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Re: The AK74 rules

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Viktor wrote:
slapshot wrote:Blah AK74 am best gun evar blah...
Where did you read this rubbish? Even the Russians are moving to other 7.62x39 weapons platforms because of the shoddy build quality of the AK74 series and the piss poor battlefield performance of the 5.45x39 round!
1)Never said the AK74 was the best infantry weapon around. The most reliable infantry weapons with the least foibles would be the G3 and the FN.

2)Obviously you have never seen a wound created by the 5.45 first hand as i have. The question is where did you suck up the trash you are pumping out. Like many arm chair commandos you think you know it all.

3)I stated that the AK74 was inferior in quality to the AK47.

4) The Russians have made no move to kill the 5.45mm round. why don't you post a link to prove your statment if you want to be taken seriously.

5)Since the early 1980's most Russian equipment saw a decline in quality control.

educate yourself Viktor.

http://www.russianwarrior.com/STMMain.h ... idge.htm&1


slapshot
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Post by Kashluk »

The 5.56 / 5.45 is useful in open territories, short ranges and against unarmed troops. Since many nations have forests, swamps, huge fields, long "battle" ranges and soldiers wearing personal body armor, these rounds are generally disliked. Sure, the 7.62- family is cumbersome and even too powerful at times, but it gets the job done in less perfect conditions.
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Post by trythebill »

Wolfman Walt wrote:I'm more of a Heckler & Koch type of person for Assault rifles.
HK (91, 93, G3, etc.) rifles have a few problems. there usually is not a bolt-hold open after the last shot, the charging handle has an extremely long stroke and is somewhat difficult to engage under stress since you must pry it up under spring pressure before pulling it back, and the ergonomics/trigger/sights blow hardcore.

but that's just my opinion, every rifle has bad points and i just thought i'd point them out for the HK. i personally prefer a good solid M1 garand to anything but i do like the AK series in conjunction with the kobra collimator system.

more interesting AK74 facts from The AK47 Story
- the ak47 is so reliable due in part to the favorable weight relationship between the boltcarrier/piston assembly and the bolt. in the ak47 this ratio is 5:1, in the ak74 this ratio is 6:1

-the ak74 has between 2-2.5 greater effecive range than the ak47.

-when fired with an emtpy magazine in place the ak74 produces a recoil energy of 3.39 joules compared to 6.44 joules for the m16 and 7.19 joules for the ak47.
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here's a scary idea, why don't you just not read them then smart guy?
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Post by S4ur0n27 »

I say it again, my Super Soaker > you.
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Post by Kashluk »

Very surprisingly the AK74 seems to be better in terms of range.

AK47's killing range is 1500 meters, sighting range 800 meters and effective firing range approx. 300 meters.

Ak74's got a sighting range for 1000 meters, but I couldn't find any stat for the theoretical killing range. Anyhow, the said effective range is around 500 meters.

But that still doesn't rule out the fact that lighter projectiles are more easily pushed out of course, which means shitty accuracy in the woods or on the open field with wind for example.
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No ammo weapon combo is perfect for all situations

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The search for the perfect rifle/ammo combination will continue until the end of time. The various military .22's are here to stay primarily because the ammunition is lethal at ranges <= 250 meters you can carry more of it and it is cheaper than full power ammunition.

If I am in the open desert or in a MOUT situation I would prefer a G3, M14, or FN preferably with a 1.5x - 4x scope with an illuminated reticle on a see through mount where I can still use the iron sights. In those situations I want high power ammunition that can kill at ranges beyond 500m or get good penetration through stucco plaster and wood walls.

If I am in closed heavily foliated terrain I want something shorter preferably with a folding or short stock such as the AK74, Car15, CAL,. I also prefer the lighter ammunition so that I can carry as much ammo as possible. range will never be a problem since combat ranges are generally about 100meters or less. No small arms ammunition bucks brush very well even full power cartridges like 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X54r are deflected quite easily by foilage, yes the 5.56 and 5.45mm ammunition is deflected a bit more easily than those two heavyweights.

Body armor that can completely stop a 5.56mm or 5.45mm round is the exception and not the rule on the battelfield because of its weight, only someone who has never run around all day with a 10 - 12 pound piece of body armor and a kevlar pot on will dispute this. The fact is that the more armor a man wears the more likely he is to be hit because he will be moving a bit slower. besides that the legs, arms,groin, hips, ass, and half the head are not covered. Torso body armor is really meant to stop small high velocity fragments from grenades and mortar rounds that could rearrange a mans vital organs. We dont have power armor yet so only the torso can be protected in this way.

The round that I think would have been a perfect trade off between full power ammo and the military .22's would have been a rimless version of the .256 British.


The .256 British sported a 139 grain slug had a velocity of 2500fps, had 1930 foot pounds of muzzle energy. These numbers compare favorably with the 7.62mm NATO with its 150grain slug, 2,750fps MV and its 2,532
foot pounds of muzzle energy. and greatly eclipse the pipsqueak 5.56mm NATO round with its 61grain pill 3,050fps velocity and 1,267fp's of muzzle energy.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/256brit.htm

hell all this gun talk makes me want to either go shooting or play fallout tactics....I think I'll FOT

Caio

slapshot
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Post by jetbaby »

Bring on the lasers.
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Re: The AK74 rules

Post by Viktor »

slapshot wrote: 2)Obviously you have never seen a wound created by the 5.45 first hand as i have. The question is where did you suck up the trash you are pumping out. Like many arm chair commandos you think you know it all.
slapshot
"Armchair Armourer", please. I'm far too lazy for any of that commando stuff! I saw a man cut his hand on a broken table on the 5:45 train to Paddington once, does that count?
slapshot wrote: 3)I stated that the AK74 was inferior in quality to the AK47.
slapshot
If you're talking the pre-1951 milled receiver AK47s, every Russian weapon up until the recent AK100 series has been of inferior quality to this rather well made rifle.
slapshot wrote: 4) The Russians have made no move to kill the 5.45mm round. why don't you post a link to prove your statment if you want to be taken seriously.
slapshot
I'll go a digging tomorrow. The Russian special forces and police units that have a choice, appear to favour the OC-14 in 7.62x39 if the photos from Chechnya I've seen are anything to go by. All other units will have to make do with 5.45x39 as they've got stacks of it and no money to buy anything different.
slapshot wrote: 5)Since the early 1980's most Russian equipment saw a decline in quality control. slapshot
As have all things Russian of late.

slapshot wrote: educate yourself Viktor.

http://www.russianwarrior.com/STMMain.h ... idge.htm&1
slapshot
No thanks. I prefer Jane's Defence Weekly when I can blag a copy...
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Re: The AK74 rules

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No thanks. I prefer Jane's Defence Weekly when I can blag a copy...
No argument there I used to steal them out of S2 every chance I got.

now I have to rely old Ian Hogg and a few others for light reading

Image

Image


I did me some digging and it appears that I was in error in that the Russians were working on version of the 7.62 x 39 necked down to 6mm that would have been sweet. I take it that they ran out of cash when the wall came down and reverted to as you say what they had the most of and thats obviously 7.62x 39 that they have mountains of in storage.

In reality when you compare the accuracy of any AK variant with an M16A2 your L85A2 , HK, or FN the Russians come off as a distant second best. But if I was packing an AK74 in combat I would feel well armed despite its foibles.


Note:I think its pretty clever how you guys took the armalite AR 18 and turned it into a facsimile of the EM2. I wish the EM2 had been produced in numbers and in the 6mm cal.

note: I like the way the Russians package their ammo. The galvanized hermetically sealed cans that open with a key like a ham are my favorites. they are almost indestrustable until opened.

Note: I will never understand why you guys dont have an equivalent of our second ammendment written into your bill of rights.

Caio

slapshot
Last edited by slapshot on Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Wolfman Walt »

Viktor is armed with the most dangerous weapon ever, razor sharp wit and intelligence.
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