Let the Gun Rights Argument Begin

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Fri May 31, 2002 4:48 am

Computers are probably going to be the weapons of the future, but at the moment it is just handys for muggers.

for instance, if they invent 'teleport' machines and food processing stuff, you could poisen food, mess around with traffic...a lot of stuff.

But a computer can't kill anyone yet [mabye make them bankrupt]

Handguns and stuff are easier to use. Pull a trigger and something dies, with a computer it takes longer and it actually requires intelligence, wich most members of the human race don't have.

I had a point, but it got lost on my very small train of thought.

Jimmyjay86 · Post by **Jimmyjay86** » Fri May 31, 2002 4:52 am

I have no problems with gun ownership - I own a handgun and think I have that right. Concealed carry should not be included as a right. I don't own a gun for protection as a primary reason, I just like to target practice ocassionally. There are very few situations where you would be able to protect yourself with a concealed gun anyway. Think about it. If someone comes up to you unsuspectingly with a gun and tries to rob you are you going to whip out your glock and take the punk down?

Police officers have the right to carry all of the time and there are some that abuse that right offduty. Just think what it would be like if any bozo in a bar could be a carrying. Can you say shooting arcade?

And then there are people who are a little off-balance who as long as they have no criminal record can go and spend all of their money on enough guns and ammo to supply a small banana republic!

Here is what I think the law should allow: You can buy all of the guns you want to keep Winchester, H&K or whoever in business. Bullets for handguns on the other hand can only be purchased by civilians in and for use in shooting ranges. Lets's just let the government regulate bullets because guns don't kill, bullets do...

Sir_Funkalot · Post by **Sir_Funkalot** » Fri May 31, 2002 5:18 am

Yes, handguns and all other weapons should definately be banned as it only leads to violence. Killing or seriously injuring people is never good! :x

And YES! I am a PACIFIST!

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Fri May 31, 2002 5:27 am

Yes, handguns and all other weapons should definately be banned as it only leads to violence. Killing or seriously injuring people is never good!

Yes! knives and bows&Arrows should be banned too! they lead to violence! to hell with the 2nd amendment! :roll:

Just because YOU don't like them does not mean I have to give mine away.

And then there are people who are a little off-balance who as long as they have no criminal record can go and spend all of their money on enough guns and ammo to supply a small banana republic!

I buy ammo in bulk, not because I am afraid of some evil government taking my firearms, but it is x10 cheaper! I am a Wolf ammo dealer, I can buy 1,000 rounds of .223 for about $80, I lock it away and take it out when I want to go target shooting, or if I want to sell it.

Bullets for handguns on the other hand can only be purchased by civilians in and for use in shooting ranges. Lets's just let the government regulate bullets because guns don't kill, bullets do...

Yes, lets give the government more power to run our lives, what about people who have dirt stops or live in/near a wooded area? should they start paying to go to a shooting range that charges $10 an hour just to buy bullets, and use them there? how about hunters, should we start buying ammo on hunting grounds before we go hunting? BULL SHIT.

Letting the government regulate the number of bullets you can buy is like allowing them to install wire-taps on your home phones and computers, it's none of their buisness!

FireWolf · Post by **FireWolf** » Fri May 31, 2002 5:34 am

Computers, lets face it. you can do stuff with em. and yes you can kill someone with a computer. i know how. what you do is: you learn C++ a few other languages. get yourself a high speed internet connection and some hacker tools. forget all that stuff and drop the 20kg of metal which is your computer on someone's head from a second story building.

okay, lets regulate bullets. now, dont know about you but i've heard of people building their own bullets. apparrently it's not that hard. your idea sucks.

the point of my computer example is this: Weapons are not responsible for killing people. if you REALLY want to kill someone. you can use your hands. Cars are responsible for so many deaths and a really tiny percentage of those deaths are related to mechanical malfunction. the reason for so many deaths is the Human behind the computer/gun/car. Banning something doesnt remove the fundamental problem. It just pushes it under the carpet. If we want to stop killing one another we have to address the social reasons WHY people are killing one another.

Banning guns will just remove a hobby/sport not the killing.

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Fri May 31, 2002 5:48 am

Wow, I'm impressed. Usually these kinda threads get to name calling in the first five posts.

I've got to agree with Hammer. I've been a long time gun advocate and what he said is on the nose with how I feel.

jimmyjay, most states that have concealed carry, don't allow you to carry in a bar, even with a permit. I know Kentucky's followed the same restrictions as the open carry provisions. No Banks, Bars or Post Offices except in some employment cases. IE a Bank owner/manager could posses one in a bank. I was never big on Conceal Carry, because I thought people should have use their open carry rights more often.

Banning bullet and handguns aren't the answer. I think teaching people respect for life and property is the best way to stop 90% of violent acts. For the other 10% we have firearms and self-defense courses.

desertf · Post by **desertf** » Fri May 31, 2002 6:53 am

LOL the only reason the constitution has any reference to guns is because we did not have a REAL army and we were afraid the British would attack again. We need to amend that part of the constitution. Ban all guns! Lets the PRO (Murders) the army handle the guns. I like World War II stuff and I study it A TON but I do not think we need guns as civillians.

END OF STORY.

FU*K GUNS THEY KILLED MY HERO... Kurt Cobain R.I.P. (1967-1994).

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Fri May 31, 2002 7:24 am

FU*K GUNS THEY KILLED MY HERO... Kurt Cobain R.I.P. (1967-1994).

Kurt Cobain killed himself, that gun did not jump up in to his mouth and magically pull the trigger. So because some loser decides to end his life with a firearm, I can't own one if I choose? great thinking their, chief.

LOL the only reason the constitution has any reference to guns is because we did not have a REAL army and we were afraid the British would attack again. We need to amend that part of the constitution

"The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

See that little phrase? it clearly states that the PEOPLE can bear arms if they choose to do so. Also, the citizens need to keep and bear arms in order to over turn a tyrannical government if needed, a well regulated militia being crucial to that. The forefathers intended it to be that way.

Jimmyjay86 · Post by **Jimmyjay86** » Fri May 31, 2002 7:30 am

I guess the question that comes to mind about concealed carry is why would you ever feel the need to? I mean I feel that I am an average citizen and I never felt the need to throw my revolver in my pocket when I went to the grocery store or to a friend's house. And I am not a backwoods person - I hang out in Chicago every once in awhile and live in a fairly big city.

Hammer, god bless him uttered

"The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

See that little phrase? it clearly states that the PEOPLE can bear arms if they choose to do so. Also, the citizens need to keep and bear arms in order to over turn a tyrannical government if needed, a well regulated militia being crucial to that. The forefathers intended it to be that way.

Times change bud, we don't have to protect ourselves from the local injun war party. That's one of the reasons we spend so much damn money in taxes to support a peace time army of overpaid guberment employees to protect us from the precious-fluid stealing commies and nasty towel-headed terroorists banging on our back door, thank you. If you are so interested in protecting me from the tyrannical government, why aren't you in Washington D.of C. right now with your guns a-blazing at George W's backside so help you god!

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Fri May 31, 2002 7:36 am

It doesn't matter, they have the right to carry in certain places if they choose to do so.

Why do neo-nazis live in the U.S.A? why does the Ku Klux Klan burn crosses? I don't know, but they are protected under the 1st amendment to do so.

desertf · Post by **desertf** » Fri May 31, 2002 7:48 am

Hmmm it seems hammer is one of those guys that hord tons of guns thinking the world is coming to an end LOL. Hammer get a life dude! Its 2002 not 1787 as you seem to think.

PLEASE DO NOT RIDICULE A MAN YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT! KURT COBAIN WAS BRILLIANT, HE IS MY IDOL PLEASE DO NOT RIDICULE HIM.

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Fri May 31, 2002 8:49 am

Hmmm it seems hammer is one of those guys that hord tons of guns thinking the world is coming to an end LOL. Hammer get a life dude! Its 2002 not 1787 as you seem to think.

Not the smartest person are ya? here let me quote myself: "I buy ammo in bulk, not because I am afraid of some evil government taking my firearms, but it is x10 cheaper!"

Did you forget to read that little part? or were you in such a hurry to flame me you ignored it?

LEASE DO NOT RIDICULE A MAN YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT! KURT COBAIN WAS BRILLIANT, HE IS MY IDOL PLEASE DO NOT RIDICULE HIM.

For such a "Brilliant" person he should made some stupid decisions, no?

Times change bud, we don't have to protect ourselves from the local injun war party. That's one of the reasons we spend so much damn money in taxes to support a peace time army of overpaid guberment employees to protect us from the precious-fluid stealing commies and nasty towel-headed terroorists banging on our back door, thank you. If you are so interested in protecting me from the tyrannical government, why aren't you in Washington D.of C. right now with your guns a-blazing at George W's backside so help you god!

I never stated I disliked my government, I worked for the government for 8 years of my life, I simply stated that this is what the forefathers hoped we would do if such a thing were to happen.

For the sake of calling things out dated, how about the 1st amendment? we should out-law flag burning and deport anybody who does such a thing, times have changed and things like that never happened in the 1700s. :roll:

NEXT...

desertf · Post by **desertf** » Fri May 31, 2002 9:06 am

Kurt Cobain was a troubled person and YES he did make a stupid and selfish choice my killing himself, but his music is legendary.

I am sorry for my earlier statement but I was pissed that you were mocking my Idol... =)

HappySuitcase Man · Post by **HappySuitcase Man** » Fri May 31, 2002 9:40 am

Okey Dokey! I've never understood why NRA types get so up in arms about the Brady Bill and having to wait 5 freakin' days to get their gun. Afraid of burglars? Then invite a friend over and sleep in shifts! (Note - The ridiculous answer was in response to a ridiculous question.) I don't understand what's so offensive about background checks. Usually, this is the time pro - gun types shout out their prize slogan, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!" At this time, my response is usually a retort of my own, namely (to paraphrase a semi - classic Dead Kennedys song), "Take your slogans and SHOVE 'EM UP YOUR ASS!" Then, my second response is "No Shit!" That's why the background check is on the person, not the gun. Let us not forget the Simpson's episode where Homer's reply to being told he has to wait three days to get his gun is "But I'm angry now!" This is probably going incite Hammer to shout, "Homer Simpson doesn't represent the average American, you dumbass pinko commie!" And, as a fantastic finisher, he'll add the already-old eye-roll smiley. Of course, I probably have my stereotypes wrong, but there you have it.

Anyway, in response to your argument that "criminals are going to find a way to do shoot people, anyway" -- What the Hell!?! If they're gonna find a way, we shouldn't even lift a finger to stop them? I sincerely hope you're being sarcastic.

Hammer wrote:
...is like allowing them to install wire-taps on your home phones and computers, it's none of their buisness!

Er... assuming that you live in America, they already can, buddy. Probably already are, too.

Jimmyjay86 wrote:Times change bud, we don't have to protect ourselves from the local injun war party. That's one of the reasons we spend so much damn money in taxes to support a peace time army of overpaid guberment employees to protect us from the precious-fluid stealing commies and nasty towel-headed terroorists banging on our back door, thank you. If you are so interested in protecting me from the tyrannical government, why aren't you in Washington D.of C. right now with your guns a-blazing at George W's backside so help you god!

Dood! That slice of the pie on all of those "Government Expenditures" graphs doesn't all go to the military. A bunch of that stuff is research for American Big Business via the Pentagon system. Dontcha feel great! If a corporation makes a mistake, our tax dollars pay for it! Of course, if a profit is made, all that moolah goes into the pockets of some CEO. Anyways, lots of folk complain that "we're wasting money on humanitarian missions!" Reality check! I can assure, that every "humanitarian mission" we've been involved with has helped out Big Business immensely.

The Shrike · Post by **The Shrike** » Fri May 31, 2002 10:42 am

Mabey its me but the anti gun people in this thread seem to be more agressive than those who want guns. I could be biased because I have no problems with guns whatsoever.

desertf · Post by **desertf** » Fri May 31, 2002 10:53 am

HappySuitcase Man, I love you.

LOL like a brother of course =)

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Fri May 31, 2002 11:02 am

what's so offensive about background checks. Usually, this is the time pro - gun types shout out their prize slogan, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!"

The NRA is not against background checks, nor am I, we are against firearm registration.

Get your shit wired right next time. Also, as for the 5 days, a check only takes a FEW MINUTES, so waiting 5 days is pointless. How do I know? I run a gun store, before I can sell a firearm I have to contact the state police and run an instant check on a person before he can leave my store with that firearm.

Let us not forget the Simpson's episode

I found the episode funny, especially when he went around with the pistol and shot everything that made him mad.

"Homer Simpson doesn't represent the average American, you dumbass pinko commie!"

The best part is, no where did I call people leftist-liberal-gungrabbing-commie-bastards or anything of the sort, another thing you've appeared to have pulled out of your ass.

Anyway, in response to your argument that "criminals are going to find a way to do shoot people, anyway" -- What the Hell!?! If they're gonna find a way, we shouldn't even lift a finger to stop them? I sincerely hope you're being sarcastic.

Enforcing the current, sensible firearms laws is the way to do that, do you have some other genius idea?

Anyway, other then establishing that you have absolutely no knowledge on this subject, what was the point of your rant?

HappySuitcase Man, I love you.

I would advise that the next time you choose your champion, you had first make sure he knows what he is talking about.

Post by **DarkUnderlord** » Fri May 31, 2002 11:06 am

Can someone give a brief over-view of the American Gun Laws if possible? IE: If I was an American Citizen and I wanted to purchase a firearm, what do I have to do to get one?

I heard something that you could buy one from a gunshow with no hassles, but I'm not sure.

Hammer · Post by **Hammer** » Fri May 31, 2002 11:09 am

To have a firearm sent directly to your house from a factory you need to have a FFL (federal firearms license). Those cost about 2,000 a year, and you must sell two firearms within that year to keep your license. Before you can purchase a firearm you have to go thru an insta-check program that the state police program has, they need your drivers license and a few other things.

You can NOT walk in to a gun show and buy a firearm, they too have the insta-check program.

To purchase an automatic weapon you need a class 3 firearms license, you're looking at about $4,000 a year right there. To purchase an "assault weapon" you need to get rid of either a pistol grip, bayonet lug, flash suppressor, collapsible stock, or detachable magazine.

Pointless law? you bet your ass it is.

Blarg · Post by **Blarg** » Fri May 31, 2002 2:20 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, Hammer, but in the US you have to be 18 years old to buy rifles, shotguns, or their ammo. You must be 21 to purchase handguns or full-auto weapons.

Speaking of using your computer to gather information:

All of you anti-gun types, I respectfully disagree with you and ask you to fully and OBJECTIVELY read and consider the following, that means no panicking or calling me insane. Thank you.

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/informat ... asp?ID=172

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/informat ... asp?ID=909

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/informat ... asp?ID=174

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/informat ... sp?ID=1735

This article completely debunks the "gun show loophole" argument, thanks in advance for not even bringing it up. It includes a link to the US Department of Justice report that it references, TIA for not saying that the writer made it all up.

A few more goodies:

Doctors(yes, Doctors)for Responsible Gun Ownership

Gun Rights Scholarship

http://www.guncite.com/index.html

http://reason.com/bi/guns.shtml

For those of you outside of the US, I submit the following:
"To this day, every male, when he turns 20, is issued a full automatic military rifle and required to keep it at home. Universal service in the Militia Army is required. When a Swiss is no longer required to serve, he may keep his rifle (converted from automatic to semi-automatic) or his pistol (if he served as an officer)."

Yes. Every adult male is in the Swiss Militia(if anyone here is in it or knows more, please post) and has an ASSAULT RIFLE. Not a semiautomatic rifle that looks military(until retirement). Since "guns kill", there should have been many more public shootings than this one. The above quote is from this article.

There are at least 80 million gun owners, and 200 million guns, in the US. There are probably more since 9/11. If "guns kill", or if just being around a gun irresistibly makes even a small fraction of the general population bloodthirsty monsters, then millions would be dead. Clearly, they aren't. TIA for not mentioning it.

I will cheerfully debate about guns. DEBATE. That means no hysteria, insults, or logical fallacies.

Thank you for your time and attention.

Blarg

Duck and Cover

Let the Gun Rights Argument Begin

Are you in favor of banning handguns?

Guns

Hammer...

Hammer

HappySuitcase Man