Let the Gun Rights Argument Begin

[Will]

The American people aren't "brainwashed" into voting for everyone, HSM. Not everyone is gonna vote for Ralph Nader (Who I'm assuming you support, since your whole argument sounds similar to his) because he's too liberal for their tastes, believe it or not. They're just voting their values, and a lot of people are conservative.

[Hammer]

Since learning is accomplished by asking questions, let me respond with one -- Why are you against firearm registration?

The same reason I am against phone taps, spy ware, or whatever the government wants to put to monitor my activities.

Ben Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

The government has no business knowing what I own, when I purchased it, and why I wanted it.

Are you arguing that making someone wait five days, in the hopes that some angry people would cool down, isn't helping to save any lives? If so, care to explain?

No lives would be saved in a 5 day waiting period, when you get it in your head that you wish to kill somebody, 5 days is not going to make you cool down, especially if it was something serious.?

Also, the "gun-grabbers" all say they want registration to know who buys Uzis, M60s, and whatever other Automatic firearm there is, but guess what? to legally purchase those you need a class 3 license, which is registered with the ATF.

Again, 5 days is useless and inefficient, instant check is the way to go.

If no, yet you still think that a five - day waiting period is wrong, would you be willing to say that your inconvenience is greater than any lives that would be lost, which would otherwise have been kept had the five - day waiting period remained enforced? If so, why?

When somebody orders a firearm from my gun store, it can take up to a week to arrive, when it arrives I can sell it to that individual, that is more than 5 days, so why should he have to wait an additional 5?

Now when he wants to buy a rifle off the rack, I run the insta-check, if the man comes in and seems deranged, I simply do not sell it to him, all firearms dealers go by that rule.

WE ARE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO SELL A FIREARM TO A SUSPICIOUS PERSON

(according to the capitalism theory I assume you lovingly support, based on your signature and all)

I love my country, I signed up to fight for it. Is there something wrong with that?

Yerp! Back from my rant, and back into your question. What if we have to fight for our rights? I'm assuming you mean a full - blooded revolution. Then you go motherfuckin' Vietcong style! Time to either make your own weapons or buy some off the Black Market, which should be willing to become more available and willing to drive the prices down

We would already have firearms since we did not register them, by not registering them the government would not know who had them and what they had.

Of course, the revolution is doomed from the start, because if you have assault weapons, the government has tanks.

Tanks can't go in the woods, but we are not here to discuss a revolution and how it would be fought.

But this sounds like the doomed theory, "If you can't win, don't even try," doesn't it?

There is another saying which is "I'd rather die fighting than live life on my knees", what other cause is worth dying for other than freedom?

[Hammer]

Blarg, god bless his soul did the footwork for me here in his previous post. I assume he got it from a credible source...

You never mentioned that you based your home arguement over his post, you said "I am thinking it is from breaking into people's homes while they are not there and stealing their guns"

[Kaine]

"Guns dont kill people, people kill people" i wonder why that is used so often... perhaps because it's true.

It gets used so often because it is a convenient way of masking the issue with an undeniable truism. A more useful statement might be "People without guns don't shoot people, people with guns shoot people."

When criminals have guns, people want guns to feel safer. if you cant get the guns from the criminals then lets go with a genius idea: DISARM THE DEFENSELESS! yep, that's right! make it even EASIER to get mugged, robbed, raped, whatever.

Owning a gun doesn't make you any safer. It is an illusion for cowards who can't cope with the reality of a dangerous world to hide behind.

Curt cobain's music was ok. i've heard better. he shot himself... let's ban guns because he shot himself... arooh? logic? "if guns weren't around he'd be alive!" no, he'd have hanged himself instead. i know, let's ban rope too! he'd have overdosed. let's ban all drugs! uhh...

it's simply a reactionary response to a problem not a solution. banning guns will not serve any purpose. Flame me, spam me, call me names. i dont care, it just proves that you have no argument to counter mine.

Kurt Cobain was a talented man who had one too many downer. Apparently, the amount of heroin in his bloodstream should have killed him if he hadn't shot himself in the head. Banning guns wouldn't have saved him. Heroin is already illegal, so banning drugs wouldn't save him. The world being a bit of a less shitty place might have done, or some decent psychiatric help.

Just saw this, need to respond:
As for the slogan, People without guns dont kill people, and people with guns do, i have to think a bit...I own lots of guns...My parents did when they were kids...and...HOLY SHIT, I'VE NEVER KILLED ANYONE!!! neither did they...and as for people without guns not killing people, I guess we don't count people that have been stabbed, strangled, suffocated, gassed, ran over, hanged, poisoned, pushed off buildings, etc. as to be people that have been killed...Amazing...

And as for people that are wanting to carry guns for protection being cowards: I'm a guy who can give a decent fight, but if someone is trying to kill me, i want the odds on my side...I want to see you kill a mugger with your bare hands while they are stabbing you to death...NAVY SEALS WOULD HAVE TROUBLE DOING THAT...

anyway...

[Gargantua]

HAHAHAHAH

it's obvious you are a fabion socialist...

all for the MAJORITY rule
doing what's RIGHT for the majority
like executing minorites?

"To overthrow an existing government, you have to have popular support. You know that people willfully supported Hitler, right? How do think he came into power? Do you think he just slipped in as leader?"

just because most people supported him, doesn't mean they all did....

and it was only 30% though your arguement is that it was the majority compared to other parties combination of smaller %'s.

Of course, the revolution is doomed from the start

you don't seem to understand a fundamental principle...

the principle of doing the right thing, no matter what the consequences...

To stick with our ww2 theme... look at England in 1940/41, their future looked horribly bleak... fortunately they won in the end...

though if they hadn't of won, was still morally right for them to fight opression?

of course it was...

unless you really ARE a Nazi...

Kaine brings up an EXCELLENT point

Nazi Germany had one of the most successful gun control programs of all time...Look how that turned out for the people

yea the people... like the Jews... If more of them had not had their guns taken away, I bet alot less of them would have been dead.... and even if that wasn't the case... there would have been a HELL of alot more dead nazi's...

oh and suitcase to answer your question...

according to 1997 stats... there are 628 prisoners in America for every 100,000 people...

Police would barely have to enforce the law if it's 628 criminals with guns vs 99372 Law abiding citizens with guns... you could also spend money on gun education with the money you save from the soon to be lack of criminals in jail (who cost anywhere from 35000-75000 depending on their security level)

Guns don't encourage crimes... they deter them... this is why police have guns

It's the same principle with nuclear missles...

[Gargantua]

oh and suitcase...

ever heard those stories about people who were STUPID enough to try and rob gun stores?

guess not...

[Kaine]

I don't care what you use for target shooting, as long as it isn't a lethal weapon. I'm quite willing to forego a small amount of pleasure derived from a sporting passtime if it increases the safety of me and my family and other innocents.

Shit, lets ban cars, bikes, and all forms of transportation too...My chances of running over someone are one heluva lot more than killing someone with my guns...

As for criminals stealing guns out of my house, they wouldn't make it very far...everyone in my house has a gun at their bedside and training on how to use them.

As for an earlier post on what someone would feel like after shooting someone with a fake gun: In the event that that would happen, they would have to give me some reason to draw it in the first place, ie. threats against my life...at that point, if he wanted to kill me but only had a fake gun, FUCK HIM...i like my life...if killing someone that wants to kill me and plans to do it is a bad thing, what has this world come to?

[Kaine]

No. Hammers are tools. Bats are sporting implements. Cars are vehicles. Guns are weapons.

You can kill people with anything. You can kill people with your bare hands. Guns are made specifically to kill people.

This is beautiful...I've got a substantal amount of guns at my house that are TARGET or COMPETITION weapons...and hey, if they were meant only to kill people, wouldn't the instructions that came with them say "Do not point in a safe direction so that someone will die"

Am I missing something?

[Tank]

This is pathetic.

Tell me, why do you need all these guns? They're killing-instruments for crying out loud!!! I can accept hunting-rifles or sports-guns/rifles, but they should all be locked up in the gun-clubs club-house and not be let out unless people decided to go hunting/skeet-shooting. You don't need a gun at home.

[Kaine]

Well, as for my view of everything after looking through the entire set of posts, i must say one thing that will stop ALL CRIME (this is a shocker):

We must ban intelligence, plain and simple...
We make better things to enhance our lives (intelligence makes us better)
Criminals want these better things but dont want to pay (intelligence makes the criminals think up plans to steal things)
We want to protect ourselves from criminals (intelligence tells us to either learn ways to defend ourselves or we will die or be injured)
Criminals want to avoid people that defend themselves (intelligence makes them think of guerrilla tactics)

Therefore, I must conclude that intelligence is the cause of EVERYTHING WRONG AND BAD THAT IS CAUSED BY MANKIND.

also...

IT IS THE CAUSE OF EVERYTHING RIGHT AND GOOD CAUSED BY MANKIND.

Why don't animals have crime? They do not have the level of sentience that we do (if they have sentience at all)

We must face the facts that no matter what we ban or what we do there will always be a loophole...now, all those anti-gunners out there, think carefully:

Would you prefer to be completely prepared to defend yourself in a world where there will always be crime, or would you like to be completely defenseless?

And, if you said completely unable to defend yourself:
Would you like to ban other people from defending themselves?

I know that if i didn't like guns, I certainly wouldn't want to abuse other people's rights...

[Det0x]

i say ban everything then no one will start forums to complain about crap, since they will be banned..

and everyone should be come a bullet dodgin ninja so guns will be useless with super rockey proof amor with laser guns....


any way thats about as stupid as i think all yer idears is

[Kaine]

This is pathetic.

Tell me, why do you need all these guns? They're killing-instruments for crying out loud!!! I can accept hunting-rifles or sports-guns/rifles, but they should all be locked up in the gun-clubs club-house and not be let out unless people decided to go hunting/skeet-shooting. You don't need a gun at home.

Well, for one, I like to keep my guns where I can keep them safe and keep an eye on them. And, in case I do need a gun in defense, I'd like it with me...

REAL LIFE CASE IN POINT:
I live on a ranch...on night, a black bear proceeded to destroy our chicken coop...my father, being the gun loving person he is, went out and shot it...had he not, we would have lost a LOT of chickens, which is a bad thing. Also, we could have been attacked, along with our other animals, and I don't know about anyone else, I will not screw with a bear with my bare hands OR knives of any sort.

Guns do not have to necessarily used against criminals to be used for defense...people in rural areas do need them to protect their interests...

And I don't want to hear ANY bullshit about there being little rural areas throughout the world. I know for a fact that there are hundreds of thousands of farmers and ranchers in the world, and I believe most, given the opportunity, would use a gun to kill animals destroying their crops/animals/structures etc.

[Hammer]

This is pathetic.

Tell me, why do you need all these guns? They're killing-instruments for crying out loud!!! I can accept hunting-rifles or sports-guns/rifles, but they should all be locked up in the gun-clubs club-house and not be let out unless people decided to go hunting/skeet-shooting. You don't need a gun at home.

Why do you need a computer? unless you have a job which requires you to use a computer than you don't need it right?

Sure it sounds ridiculous, but so does your "You don't need an evil gun!" argument. I want one, the constitution says I can have one. They are a hobby of mine, I enjoy using them for shooting, and I enjoy having them.

it is my own pursuit of happiness.

EDIT: On the "keep them at a sporting club thing", what am I supposed to do is somebody brakes in to my home? call the police? hah! by the time they get their my house would be looted and family possibly dead.

[Crow of Ill Omen]

Just saw this, need to respond:
As for the slogan, People without guns dont kill people, and people with guns do, i have to think a bit...I own lots of guns...My parents did when they were kids...and...HOLY SHIT, I'VE NEVER KILLED ANYONE!!! neither did they...and as for people without guns not killing people, I guess we don't count people that have been stabbed, strangled, suffocated, gassed, ran over, hanged, poisoned, pushed off buildings, etc. as to be people that have been killed...Amazing...

I said "shoot" not "kill."

And as for people that are wanting to carry guns for protection being cowards: I'm a guy who can give a decent fight, but if someone is trying to kill me, i want the odds on my side...I want to see you kill a mugger with your bare hands while they are stabbing you to death...NAVY SEALS WOULD HAVE TROUBLE DOING THAT...

anyway...

You're the second type of gun owner I mentioned. Thinking about asking Betsy out on that date?

And I don't want to hear ANY bullshit about there being little rural areas throughout the world. I know for a fact that there are hundreds of thousands of farmers and ranchers in the world, and I believe most, given the opportunity, would use a gun to kill animals destroying their crops/animals/structures etc.

As OTB said, what suits one culture doesn't always suit another. In the UK there is nothing to protect yourself from. We have no dangerous wildlife. Farmers still like to carry guns though.

Over here the majority of shootings are done with shotguns. Shotguns have been legal for farmers to own under some kind of rural law.

[Jimbo san]

As i posted earlier, it's pathetically easy to get hold of a shotgun in the UK if you have land somewhere you can shoot it on. And yet our government bans handguns, and all other types. This is what I call half assed policy.

[Crow of Ill Omen]

As i posted earlier, it's pathetically easy to get hold of a shotgun in the UK if you have land somewhere you can shoot it on. And yet our government bans handguns, and all other types. This is what I call half assed policy.

I agree. If they banned shotguns and made an effort to take existing ones out of circulation, shootings would be much less common. All we'd have to worry about then would be ex-military firearms and the ones coming in from places like the US, where guns are easier to get.

[Kashluk]

I don't really care. Let the slum folk kill each other if they really want to do so. With auto-rifles or lead pipes - i don't care!

[Hammer]

As OTB said, what suits one culture doesn't always suit another. In the UK there is nothing to protect yourself from. We have no dangerous wildlife. Farmers still like to carry guns though.

Well everybody should have that outlook, I don't think everybody should be required to own one, but if one chooses to do so than they should by all means be allowed to.

[FireWolf]

As i posted earlier, it's pathetically easy to get hold of a shotgun in the UK if you have land somewhere you can shoot it on. And yet our government bans handguns, and all other types. This is what I call half assed policy.

I agree. If they banned shotguns and made an effort to take existing ones out of circulation, shootings would be much less common. All we'd have to worry about then would be ex-military firearms and the ones coming in from places like the US, where guns are easier to get.

LOL you didn't read my post about a UK journalist being able to order firearms from EU countries with no sanctions or any kind of inhibition even no ID or reason for purchase.

EDIT, shotguns are used to kill rabits, pests etc. Ever been to the country side and tried to kill a rabit with a knife? a stick? how about we use the good old spit ball and straw method.

If you want a gun you can get one. Legal or not. hear about the shooting in manchester yesterday? somehow i dont think that gun came all the way from the US when you can buggeroff to france and buy one, even from a reputable dealer, and get it across customs through the tunnel.

[Crow of Ill Omen]

As long as any countries exist where guns can be legally purchased, it'll cause problems for the UK.