Let the Gun Rights Argument Begin

[FireWolf]

nope, sorry that's another case of brushing away the causes. why are guns on the streets? because criminals want them. why do criminals want them? because they want guns to combat the police and intimidate people.

why should we have guns? because there are an increasing number of guns on the streets being used against us and we are completely defenseless against such things. you get mugged, what do you do? call the police with the mobile that was just stolen. uh-huh...

Don't try to blame the UK's problems on other countries, it doesn't work.

why are there asylem seekers in the UK? because we harbour them. our laws regarding them are too weak and our border control is quite frankly pitiful.


EDIT: we reached 100 replies.

[Hammer]

People always find a way to blame the U.S for their problems, even when the German retard kid shot his school. It was some how our fault.

[Crow of Ill Omen]

I didn't blame tou for UK problems. I said that most guns used in crimes are shotguns, because they are legally available over here. I also said that guns are being smuggled from countries like the US.

why are guns on the streets? because criminals want them ...

... and can get them from smugglers who bring them in from abroad, or stole them from a farmer, or bought them from a man claiming to be a farmer. The solution is not to make them available without making people go to the trouble of smuggling them.

why should we have guns? because there are an increasing number of guns on the streets being used against us and we are completely defenseless against such things. you get mugged, what do you do? call the police with the mobile that was just stolen. uh-huh...

If you shot someone who was trying to take your mobile from you, it would be murder.

If you shot someone who was trying to take your mobile from you at gunpoint, it would be amazing. A guy walked up to you out of nowhere, pointed a gun at you and asked for your mobile. You were unaffected by fear. You pulled and fired your gun. You were accurate. All so quickly that he didn't shoot you with the gun he was already pointing at you.

[Kaine]

As long as any countries exist where guns can be legally purchased, it'll cause problems for the UK.

When was the last time someone that killed someone in your country came all the way to the US, did the background checks, AND GOT THE GUN BACK TO YOUR COUNTRY in order to kill someone...

I don't know about Europe, but it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to get ANY type of firearm on an airplane...ports are checked well, too.

As for me wanting to defend myself and my family, I don't think there should be any restrictions on it. Crow, if you wanna die and let your family die as well if you are attacked, so be it, that's Darwinism at work, but if I want to live, I plan on keeping the odds on my side.

As for the gun smugglers, almost all guns brought into other countries were not bought legally, hence the word, SMUGGLER.

As for where they got the guns? Guns come from the black market, which comes from corrupt countries that sell off military weapons at a profit. Don't believe me? You tell me how the AK has become so prolific in countries like afghanistan. They don't legally buy it, the get large bulk loads coming in from old russian countries that are trying to make a profit selling off surplus military items...That should help with your "where do the guns come from" question.

[Megatron]

The conclusion: People who own a gun don't want them banning, people who don't have guns want them banning out of fear of getting shot.

Solution:Give everyone a gun.

[Kashluk]

YES! BLAME AMERIKANAZ!!! USA IS THE ASSHOLE OF THE WORLD!

:twisted: finally someone understands :twisted:

[Vikjunk]

Solution:Give everyone a gun.

Damn Straight!!!

[HappySuitcase Man]

The same reason I am against phone taps, spy ware, or whatever the government wants to put to monitor my activities.

Ben Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

The government has no business knowing what I own, when I purchased it, and why I wanted it.

Police can find what firearm was used in a murder by examining the bullet (I guess...). Y'know, heavy duty examining, like at some Crime Lab or something. Anyway, how else would police officers track down criminals in cases where he or she fires the weapon in a dark alley or in the victim's home and neglects to drop the firearm? I'd assume that most criminals know that leaving their weapon at the scene of the crime doesn't bode well for their future.

The government isn't likely to use this registration info for any other purposes than the one listed above, or data for campaigning politicians come election year. If the government wants to spy on you, it has a ton of cheaper, useful, and more effecient ways. All they have to do is tap your phone or install some mirco-security cameras around your residence. And if they want to get rid of you, they'll just send the cops to plant some drugs in your house and take you away. Doesn't that just make you feel all fuzzy inside?

No lives would be saved in a 5 day waiting period, when you get it in your head that you wish to kill somebody, 5 days is not going to make you cool down, especially if it was something serious.?

Five days is a long time, buddy, and a lot could happen in that time. I'm not talking about cold blooded murder which people actually plan out, but hot-pissed-as-hell murder. I mean, I feel a lot better after sleeping, but I guess I'm not like most people.

Of course, this argument is moving towards the psychological, so this part of the discussion is the equivalent of two tanks going opposite directions jammed together, head on. And they can't back up because behind both of the tanks is a Pinto. And behind that is a Chevette. And even the most uneducated of us know that in any collision between a tank and a Pinto, the Pinto always wins...

...but we are not here to discuss a revolution and how it would be fought.

I was.

There is another saying which is "I'd rather die fighting than live life on my knees", what other cause is worth dying for other than freedom?

Er... the point of my phrase was to say, "Hey, the above argument was totally negated by the fact it followed this principle, but I didn't want to delete the phrase 'motherfuckin' Vietcong-style'"

Anyway, there are non - violent ways of changing the country. Write to your congressman. Lobby against or for something. Organize a union. Demonstrate against a corporation or business that's stomping on you. Get attention to your story. And most of all, vote.

[HappySuitcase Man]

all for the MAJORITY rule
doing what's RIGHT for the majority
like executing minorites?

What.The.Fucking.Hell.

Would you like to suggest a better idea? If you'd like to suggest that the strong should rule over the weak, or that the people who own a country ought to govern it, well, then you're a real egg-no-ray-moose as far as morality goes.

just because most people supported him, doesn't mean they all did....

and it was only 30% though your arguement is that it was the majority compared to other parties combination of smaller %'s.

Can you prove that?

Anyway, no ruler can remain in control unless the people are willing to go along with his or her rule. Would the German people have cooperated initially with Hitler if they resented his rule? Would people who wanted Hitler out keep working in factories for the army's tanks or airplanes? Would they willingly fight for the Nazi army? How would the Gestapo enforce orders if the people collectively put their foot down? If they killed a German citizen, that would just strengthen the resolve of the others fighting his rule. The only way a powerful few can overthrown is by the work of the majority of the ruled.

you don't seem to understand a fundamental principle...

the principle of doing the right thing, no matter what the consequences...

I wasn't denouncing that a revolution would be wrong, just that it would very unlikely that it would succeed. It might sound like I was saying "just give up", but I wasn't, and I didn't intend it to sound like that, either.

unless you really ARE a Nazi...

Don't worry. Fifth grade was hard on me, too.

[Hammer]

Police can find what firearm was used in a murder by examining the bullet (I guess...). Y'know, heavy duty examining, like at some Crime Lab or something. Anyway, how else would police officers track down criminals in cases where he or she fires the weapon in a dark alley or in the victim's home and neglects to drop the firearm?

They would need the firearm to check the registration though, but if they have the firearm they can check the serial number. Pointless, no?

Also, every firearm leaves a distinct mark on the primer of the bullet, which usually leads to knowing what firearm was used to commit the murder, that and the possibility of finger prints being on the shell casing.

The government isn't likely to use this registration info for any other purposes than the one listed above, or data for campaigning politicians come election year.

I am skeptical of what my government may do.

. If the government wants to spy on you, it has a ton of cheaper, useful, and more effecient ways.

Well if it is cheaper to tap the phones, but expensive to start nation-wide registration program which will do nothing that serial number or firing pin indentation wont. Why waste money doing it?

. And if they want to get rid of you, they'll just send the cops to plant some drugs in your house and take you away. Doesn't that just make you feel all fuzzy inside?

But if they come to take my firearms in a revolution they wont since they have no idea what I have. Not that they are likely too, but this has just turned in to a whole lotta "what if" scenarios.

Five days is a long time, buddy, and a lot could happen in that time. I'm not talking about cold blooded murder which people actually plan out, but hot-pissed-as-hell murder. I mean, I feel a lot better after sleeping, but I guess I'm not like most people.

But if my store does not have what they want (unlikely) I have to order it, as I that is about 7 day waiting at the least, also, as I stated, most firearm dealers use their better judgment when selling a firearm.

Example: Last week a guy came in and wanted an SKS, I said no problem, took it off the rack and gave it to him. Soon as I reached for the instant-check program he said he had changed his mind and did not want to buy a firearm. A couple days later my friend (who also runs a firearm store) called me up and told me a suspicious, nervous individual came in the store asking for a SKS, my friend of course refused to sell it to him because of his suspicious actions.

I was.

Gorilla warfare all the way, lotsa mountains in the United States.

Anyway, there are non - violent ways of changing the country. Write to your congressman. Lobby against or for something. Organize a union. Demonstrate against a corporation or business that's stomping on you. Get attention to your story. And most of all, vote.

I vote, I write to my congressmen (although I am sure he does not read it) and I do all of those things, but some times violence is needed. So god forbid the Government said "Ok, we are going to rule this nation with an iron fist, no more constitution, no more freedom." A rally is not going to stop that now is it?

If you shot someone who was trying to take your mobile from you at gunpoint, it would be amazing. A guy walked up to you out of nowhere, pointed a gun at you and asked for your mobile. You were unaffected by fear. You pulled and fired your gun. You were accurate. All so quickly that he didn't shoot you with the gun he was already pointing at you.

While we're at the "what ifs", what if your mate in the back seat has a firearm? he has the advantage over the robber, especially if it's a dark night and he has it tucked in a shoulder holster.

YES! BLAME AMERIKANAZ!!! USA IS THE ASSHOLE OF THE WORLD!

Sarcasm, or genuine stupidity?

[HappySuitcase Man]

They would need the firearm to check the registration though, but if they have the firearm they can check the serial number. Pointless, no?

Serial Numbers!?! :oops: Boy does that make me look like a dumbass! I forgot all about those lil' babies! Ha ha! That just shot my entire argument straight to hell. Seriously.

Not that they are likely too, but this has just turned in to a whole lotta "what if" scenarios.

You forgot the "pretty freakin' fun!" part.

So god forbid the Government said "Ok, we are going to rule this nation with an iron fist, no more constitution, no more freedom." A rally is not going to stop that now is it?

I doubt that it would happen, since the current system is much more efficient for rallying up the masses and tons better for profits than any ratty 'ol fascism. But that's a different discussion, isn't it?

Anyway, arguing with you has taught me a lot about the world of firearm's rights, not to mention that it was lot of fun. Now that you brought up those little critters known as serial numbers, I don't really see a point for registering firearms anymore.

I'm still against the sale of military-like weapons, however. Remember, there's a place called the inner-city, and as wages drop, working hours and unemployment rises (which has been the trend since the seventies), and inner cities approach third-world status at an ever increasing rate, violence is going to break out more often. Soon enough, the inner city will look like its own third world country, and as the police back off, it'll be "Survival of the Fittest." You might say that this is a "what - if" scenario, but I disagree. Boston has had to open up a malnutrition clinic and a health organization once said that the general health in Harlem is roughly equal to that of Bangladesh. Feel free to disagree.

Now, I'm not giving up (READ - Yes, I am), but this discussion is running in circles. You're not going to convince me on any other points, and I'm not going to convince you that my beliefs on the subject are correct. All in all, I learned a bunch, and had a blast.

*Extends Hand*

[Hammer]

*extends hand in return*

Done and done!

[Knight]

YES! BLAME AMERIKANAZ!!! USA IS THE ASSHOLE OF THE WORLD!

:twisted: finally someone understands :twisted:

Real lives are lost and you insult the world's leading country. I HOPE YOU DIE WHEN YOU SPILL THAT KEROSENE ON YOUR SELF AND LIGHT YOURSELF UP WITH YOUR OWN LIGHTER WHEN YOU TRY TO BURN THE FLAG!!! THANK YOU and SUCK my A-HOLE! :mad:

[Slider]

YES! BLAME AMERIKANAZ!!! USA IS THE ASSHOLE OF THE WORLD!

:twisted: finally someone understands :twisted:

You be quiet and go buy more of these

[Crow of Ill Omen]

While we're at the "what ifs", what if your mate in the back seat has a firearm? he has the advantage over the robber, especially if it's a dark night and he has it tucked in a shoulder holster.

Your friend in the back seat kills a man who tried to take your mobile phone. There is one less mugger in the world and one more armed killer (your friend).

Have you ever been mugged or robbed? I have. It is very frightening. It brings home the possibilty of imminent injury or death very forcefully. Losing your mobile or wallet starts to seem like a lot less of a big deal.

It doesn't matter what revenge or hero fantasies you concoct in your head. The best way any situation can be resolved involves the mimimum amount of violence. Any time a shooting on the street occurs it is a bad thing.

[Megatron]

YES! BLAME AMERIKANAZ!!! USA IS THE ASSHOLE OF THE WORLD!

:twisted: finally someone understands :twisted:

Real lives are lost and you insult the world's leading country. I HOPE YOU DIE WHEN YOU SPILL THAT KEROSENE ON YOUR SELF AND LIGHT YOURSELF UP WITH YOUR OWN LIGHTER WHEN YOU TRY TO BURN THE FLAG!!! THANK YOU and SUCK my A-HOLE! :mad:

'Real' Lives are lost everywhere around the world and you'd have thought the world's leading country would have a lower crime rate than say...anywhere.

I think

[OnTheBounce]

Okay boys and girls, I think there's nothing more constructive that's going to come of this thread. Time to lock up and go home.

For the most part I have to say that the posters did a very good job not turning this into a flame war. Um...but some of you really need a lesson or two dozen in elementary logic.

This thread is now locked.

OTB