Swordfight Lameness in Movies

Franz Schubert · Post by **Franz Schubert** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:54 am

This has been on my mind for a while now. Ever notice how swordfights in movies usually suck? By this, I mean that they don't seem realistic at all. Think about the realistic swordfight... you've got a sword and you're trying to SLICE through your opponent's BODY. The only thing preventing your sword from slicing his head off is the fact that his sworg GETS IN THE WAY of your swing.

The thing I've noticed in almost every movie-swordfight is that their goal never seems to be to actually hit the other guy. The strokes are usually aimed in such a way that neither of them are clearly on the offensive, but rather it looks like their target is the other persons SWORD.

Even the most nicely choreographed swordfights are like this, rapid fire sword-clashing for the sake of clashing swords. As another example, hand to hand fights also do this... like when Neo fights Seraph in the matrix sequel, I hated that fight because it DIDN'T LOOK LIKE THEY WERE TRYING TO HIT EACHOTHER. It just looked like some sort of dance.

Anyway, the one swordfight I've seen that doesn't do this is at the end of Return of the Jedi, when Vader discovers that Leia is Luke's sister. Luke's like "NOOO!" and then he goes completely apeshit, swinging his lightsaber all over the place in that little corridor. The greatest thing about that fight is that it really looked like he was swinging with all his might, and if it weren't for each parry by Vader he would have cut him down. Especially by the end of that fight, when Vader is lying on the ground and Luke just wails on him over and over... anyway it was the first time I've seen someone with a sword actually look like he was TRYING to kick some ass.

Discuss.

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:16 am

Well speaking from personal experience, it depends on the swordfighter. If you simply try to do a strike like you're speaking about, it leaves yourself open to a parry and thus a counterstrike which means death or wounding. As such, many swordfighters have gotten into the habit of leading in with a "Jab" to distract an opponents defenses or to just test them. It's generally aimed somewhere where the opponents sword can easily intercept it.

I can agree with you though that generally speaking it can get pretty unrealistic. Swordfights are actually over pretty quick actually and aren't like those uber long fights you used to see Flyn get in. I could probably get more indepth about this....but it's hard translating personal experience and techniques into relating them to movies and such.

Ernesto · Post by **Ernesto** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:33 am

[Insert Kill Bill post.]

LlamaGod · Post by **LlamaGod** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:46 am

Ernesto wrote:[Insert Kill Bill post.]

And that part from Pirates of the Caribbean

avenger69ie · Post by **avenger69ie** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:20 am

franz, you do know that light sabers dont exist lol

i know what you mean though, i reckon its basiccly done to entertain the audience, and for teh actors to stay alive while wielding potentially lethal wepaons. it sucks but with cgi things will eventually change. Swashbuckling has always been like that. i kind of like it too,

Some notable sword fights in films:
Rob Roy.
Braveheart
The last Samurai
Seven Samurai
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
(Most oriental films about samurai)
Highlander
Blade
kil bill
Excalibur
Spartacus
Troy
Gladiator
Conan the barbarian/Destroyer
Matrix Reloaded

Thats all i can think of, but some really excellently choreographed sword fights in those.

Lynxer · Post by **Lynxer** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:38 am

The fact that Duncan Mccloud wields his massive claymore as if it were a katana makes him a ridiculous character.
A claymore, or any rigid sword for that matter, is far to cumbersome to effectively use in such an elegant, gracefully smooth manner.
Claymores are meant to be guided by the force of gravity, not swordsmanship.

Blargh · Post by **Blargh** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:03 pm

Franz, have you ever participated in a so called 'realistic swordfight' ? Viewing one stale or live is not enough in my opinion. I believe you have to personally experience it to truly know and appreciate it. If you haven't, I ponder how well you could equate what you see in a film to anything remotely realistic, or begin to know the difference(s).

Nonetheless I would concur that sword fights in films are generally visually, technically and cinematographically uninspiring. Especially technique. The only real experience I've had with this is fencing, and while an overly cautious game plan can be made to work, the scoring system tends to reward those who are not afraid to jump upon their opponent's blade, as the equipment cancels out between 0.05-0.1 seconds after the first hit - and while there is a slight chance of a double, reckless speed pays dividends.

I employ both (and other) tactics, they work well enough for me. Though I would most certainly attempt to avoid a 'real swordfight' at all costs, even with several years of fencing experience (which would probably put me ahead most of the population as far as skill is concerned, probably.) It's easy enough to cripple or kill someone, I can't say I would ever be especially keen on inviting such a possibility upon myself.

I'd have to agree with Wolfman Walt, the translation of personal experience and so on isn't easy. The best I can do is suggest you take up fencing, or Kendo et al, and through that learn to scoff at the films all the more.

Post by **King of Creation** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:04 pm

The swordfights in Excalibur I thought were fairly realistic. There wasn't really any flair to it. They just kinda struggled with the weight of their armor, and made direct swipes to the body, no "aiming for swords."

Least, that's what I remember.

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:26 pm

The thing I found interesting about "The Last Samurai" is that they had an Iado master working as an onset advisor as well as giving Cruise and Watanabe lessons for 6 months before filming. The fight scenes in there were pretty good in my honest opinion. I mean obviousily when you film something you want to add something to the hero, make it seem like he's TRUELY overcomming his opponent (Which is probably part of your problem.) If the hero beat the arch nemesis in 3 strikes, I don't think it'd be very interesting.

Also, lets face it, realism in alot of movies is tossed out of the window. The Duncan McCloud example is a good one. I own that braveheart claymore and theres no way I'd EVER use it like my Katana. It's just too big and cumbersome.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:32 pm

Wolfman Walt wrote: If the hero beat the arch nemesis in 3 strikes, I don't think it'd be very interesting.

Insert Kill Bill post.

Sword fights are pretty crappy. It should just be 2 people trying to bash each other to death with a sword, not try to cut them a bit. And every single sword-fight ever captured on film would be x10 better if you replaced the swords with chainsaws.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:35 pm

I'm planning on taking kendo classes someday, it's awesome.

Wolfman Walt · Post by **Wolfman Walt** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:37 pm

It's also very expensive. A set of armor will easily run up up to 600 dollars for a decent set that lasts you for afew years. Plus the costs of the classes, kendo sticks, uniform (Hakame, etc), it's definetly very expensive.

S4ur0n27 · Post by **S4ur0n27** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:28 pm

Damn it

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:59 pm

why not do it without armour and use a plank of wood with a nail in?

Aneurysm · Post by **Aneurysm** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:13 pm

That's street kendo my friend.

avenger69ie · Post by **avenger69ie** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:48 am

Lynxer wrote:The fact that Duncan Mccloud wields his massive claymore as if it were a katana makes him a ridiculous character.
A claymore, or any rigid sword for that matter, is far to cumbersome to effectively use in such an elegant, gracefully smooth manner.
Claymores are meant to be guided by the force of gravity, not swordsmanship.

lol ridiculous charactors was what highlander was all about, Ramierez (the spaniard) was Sean Connery ffs lol

The reason i mentioned it was because of teh sword fights, which in my opinion were class, despite the fact that McCloud used a Claymore... or was it a bastard? Anyway, whatever it was, he moved it with ease "elegant, gracefully smooth manner", and it worked for me.

This is also why i put in Rob Roy, Liam Neeson uses a heavy sword, Claymore or bastard.. whatever it is.. But his nemesis Tim Roth uses a sabre... both styles of swordplay vary and are unique.

jetbaby · Post by **jetbaby** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:37 am

Troy. I really just have to say Troy. The fights were incredible. I was finally able to say "YES" that was a move with intent to KILL, not to cause a longer fight. The movie sucked, but the fights finally had that "real" feel to them. However, if you want real good fights, watch old Japanese film. Lots of Akira Kurosawa films (Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, etc). Great stuff. P.S. American fight scenes suck. Really. The Matrix I liked. Not much else is good to me. Kill Bill was trite and a poor throwback to kung fu movies.

fallout ranger · Post by **fallout ranger** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:39 am

troy had the best battle and swo-rdfight scenes ever. Well acted and accurate too.

jetbaby · Post by **jetbaby** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:49 am

Accurate? Are you shitting me? That movie was bullshit for accuracy.

fallout ranger · Post by **fallout ranger** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:12 am

In many ways yes, but the basic story behind the illiad was there. At least they didn't put lightsabers and aliens in it.