More Controversy: Views on Religion

[Killzig]

ohp...and to paraphrase (for I can't remember the exact quote) a scurvy infected russian... "religion is just a means of keeping the poor from killing the rich."

[Killzig]

And did it ever occur to you that maybe evil people can and have hijacked religious institutions for their own gain rather than the other way around? Last time I looked, the Catholic Church doesn't actually think a lot of the crap that happened in the Middle Ages was really a good thing.

So what exactly HAS the catholic church been good for over the course of it's history? I mean aside from being there for young men in need. And helping the poor hollow out their pockets. Impeding the pursuit of science. Blessing the guns of Nazi firing squads. Not giving a shit about Franco's crusade against the basque.

They've done heaps of good. I mean without them I wouldn't be able to laugh at fat people who wear those "WWJD" bracelets and tell them he'd diet.

It's easy to pass off that it was just a few hijackings of the church that happened to speckle its history with a couple of events that are followed by good events either way. Unfortunately for humanity they've been on the receiving end of the FUCK STICK when it comes to organized religion. funny how christianity originated as a rebel religion meeting in caves and became that superfluous institution with huge temples that doubled as marketplaces... (love those cathedrals with gift shops in them, would you like to buy a bottle of holy water?)...

[Kashluk]

I'd have to consider myself a "chrisitan", but I haven't read any parts of the bible I could remember (I did read some psalms because they're prophecy relating to this and the last century... read psalms 45 and think about what happened to end wwII and the phrase "two arrows").

" 45:1 For the Chief Musician. Set to 'The Lilies.' A contemplation by the sons of Korah. A wedding song. My heart overflows with a noble theme. I recite my verses for the king. My tongue is like the pen of a skillful writer.

45:2 You are the most excellent of the sons of men. Grace has anointed your lips, Therefore God has blessed you forever.

45:3 Gird your sword on your thigh, mighty one: Your splendor and your majesty.

45:4 In your majesty ride on victoriously on behalf of truth, humility, and righteousness. Let your right hand display awesome deeds.

45:5 Your arrows are sharp. The nations fall under you, with arrows in the heart of the king's enemies.

45:6 Your throne, God, is forever and ever. A scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.

45:7 You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

45:8 All your garments smell like myrrh, aloes, and cassia. Out of ivory palaces stringed instruments have made you glad.

45:9 Kings' daughters are among your honorable women. At your right hand the queen stands in gold of Ophir.

45:10 Listen, daughter, consider, and turn your ear. Forget your own people, and also your father's house.

45:11 So the king will desire your beauty, Honor him, for he is your lord.

45:12 The daughter of Tyre comes with a gift. The rich among the people entreat your favor.

45:13 The princess inside is all glorious. Her clothing is interwoven with gold.

45:14 She shall be led to the king in embroidered work. The virgins, her companions who follow her, shall be brought to you.

45:15 With gladness and rejoicing they shall be led. They shall enter into the king's palace.

45:16 Your sons will take the place of your fathers. You shall make them princes in all the earth.

45:17 I will make your name to be remembered in all generations. Therefore the peoples shall give you thanks forever and ever. "

I'd have to say that my religion is sort-of like a mutated christianity... promoting egalitarianism/equality (ie, no female submission), all that is good - both in logical and emotional sense, and the fact that religion should be practiced alone - not in congregation. God is good, will only destroy evil, and has the ability to fully concentrate on any individual (because it's infinite - god is also without gender - so god is refered to as an "it" rather than a "he" or "she").

Actually, while Christianity is based on Jesus's teachings and Jesus taught us equality, it's normal to support egalitarianism!

One other thing, if Jesus was real, he wouldn't be a caucasion male. By all thoughts he should be someone of more arabian descent. And if he was real, Mary would have got pregnant...

Hey, jesus could be a bastard child...

What I recall, it's been scientifically prooved, that Jesus is a real-life person. None of the scientists have commented his heavenly origin or the story of him being the Messiah - but yes, he's a real person.

And as a Christian, I must say that no, he wasn't a bastard child - he was born from God through virgin Mary (neitsyt Maria).

God isnt real and religions sucks, the end.

Don't judge him... He can't help himself. Let's be good Christians and help this emotionally wounded person to regain his life at it's fullest!

[Walks with the Snails]

And did it ever occur to you that maybe evil people can and have hijacked religious institutions for their own gain rather than the other way around? Last time I looked, the Catholic Church doesn't actually think a lot of the crap that happened in the Middle Ages was really a good thing.

So what exactly HAS the catholic church been good for over the course of it's history? I mean aside from being there for young men in need. And helping the poor hollow out their pockets. Impeding the pursuit of science. Blessing the guns of Nazi firing squads. Not giving a shit about Franco's crusade against the basque.

They've done heaps of good. I mean without them I wouldn't be able to laugh at fat people who wear those "WWJD" bracelets and tell them he'd diet.

It's easy to pass off that it was just a few hijackings of the church that happened to speckle its history with a couple of events that are followed by good events either way. Unfortunately for humanity they've been on the receiving end of the FUCK STICK when it comes to organized religion. funny how christianity originated as a rebel religion meeting in caves and became that superfluous institution with huge temples that doubled as marketplaces... (love those cathedrals with gift shops in them, would you like to buy a bottle of holy water?)...

Not being Catholic, I'm not exactly qualified to speak for them. But do you really think things would have been any different if someone else was in charge? New ideas like science are never accepted easily by the masses until they've had time to die off and their kids have a chance to look at it with open eyes. Just look at all the stupid laws the old men in Congress are passing now, and the stupid things our court system lets lawyers and their clients get away with. Or what our ossified CEO's, the titans of capitalism, think about the new kinds of business the Internet make possible. They're mostly falling all over themselves to kill off whatever they perceive threatens next quarter's earnings. Do you really think the average common man, noble, or "educated" man at the time really thought any differently about science than the church? If they bothered to think about it at all, that is. People and organizations in general also don't take any real risks to stand up to tyrants unless it's in their best interest. How many nations or even individuals did much about Hitler and Franco until they had something direct and immediate to lose by it. Yeah, you can be a big man denouncing all the wrongness in the world, but unless you're willing to risk your life, limb, and property on it, it's all talk. Yeah, let me listen outside the window to hear the righteous masses rising up to fight the evils of our time. Oh, forgot, they're too busy eating donuts and watching Friends. And the church does in fact denounce all manner of wrongs and struggle to do something about it, it just doesn't make as good a headline as child molesters, and you'd probably just dismiss it as propaganda if you read it, anyway.

As far as sucking the poor dry of money, how many pastors do you know? Contrary to popular perception, they're not living lives of luxury, driving around in gold-plated Cadillacs with a 10-year old boy in their lap. Churches need donations because the pastors and their families have to eat, too. Electricity isn't free. Land and buildings aren't free, either. Neither is insurance, upkeep, or all the other little things the rest of us have to pay for, too. And on top of that, it whatever is left after all that needs to go to help those in need and set up facilities to care for them as well. Trust me, people don't work for the church to get rich. The televangelists and the like who do indeed swindle people for their own gain are doubly disgusting because they often take donations away from sincere churches that would use the money to do good things.

[Killzig]

I spent the better part of my early years in a catholic school. The rectory had a golf course. You're telling me vatican city isn't superfluous? Cathedrals are enormous wastes of money? You're telling me you DO know it wouldn't have been different had the catholic church hadn't been around. Hypocrite.

[Kashluk]

I agree with you on many things, WWTS. But we must agree on the fact, that in history Catholic Church has done many awful things and the reputation it has gained has come, by most parts, with a reason.

And about that "huge cathedrals" part, Killzig... It's supposed to praise God. The priests, bishops, pope and the rest aren't going to get the kicks out of a huge building - or are they? That's what I thought. Although I disagree on BUILDING such things. I'm more of a reformist-kinda type.

[Killzig]

How many nations or even individuals did much about Hitler and Franco until they had something direct and immediate to lose by it.

There was this little thing called the Spanish Civil War, I dont know if you've heard of it. I don't know if you even understand that Franco wasn't even elected or that the church didn't mind franco's atrocities because the elected republic wasn't as church friendly. I mean, just as a thought, KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU MAKE ASININE COMMENTS LIKE THIS AGAIN. K THX BYE.

[Dirk_889]

I have found my place in the reliogious world. The Cathlic religion is aometing that i feel comfortable with. Before when i was going to a baptist church i was dreadiung to go to church. Now that I am coming of age in the world i know that i love church and i actually look forwrd to sundays.

That is just my view

[Kashluk]

And we respect your point of view as well as atheists'. Thank you for sharing it with us, Dirky. Can I call you Dirky? Thanks

[Dirk_889]

Ahh... yet another remark about my name. I only chose it because it was my very first name i used for Fallout. I found it fittinmg.

[Kashluk]

Nothing wrong with it... It's cool... And kinky, Dirky :o

[Walks with the Snails]

How many nations or even individuals did much about Hitler and Franco until they had something direct and immediate to lose by it.

There was this little thing called the Spanish Civil War, I dont know if you've heard of it. I don't know if you even understand that Franco wasn't even elected or that the church didn't mind franco's atrocities because the elected republic wasn't as church friendly. I mean, just as a thought, KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU MAKE ASININE COMMENTS LIKE THIS AGAIN. K THX BYE.

Asinine comments, hey that's good coming from you. And what exactly did I say in the quote that contradicted anything you just said?

I'm not defending any individual wrongdoings. I agree many bad things have been done in the church's name. I'd also agree that many misguided church leaders have done or condoned bad things because in their minds it would have been for the greater good, whether for the Church's coffers or because they thought it would save more souls or whatever. But blaming the institution itself rather than the people who made mistakes is silly. You want to target individual priests, popes, etc. for their misdeeds and criticize them, hey, go for it. But deriding an institution that also includes many good people doing good things is just cheap generalization.

Tell you what. Point out one religion, government, philosophy, hey, even diet plan that had real power over real peoples lives, real money going into it, real people running the show, and real people sincerely believeing in it that never got misused by self-serving people people to the detriment of innocents, and I'll be convinced that religion itself is inherently evil and that bad things that have been done in the past in its name were a fundamental problem with the concept rather than a problem with the people misusing their power or simply not understanding the ramifications of their actions due to short-sightedness or narrow-mindedness.

[Chris(is evil)]

Talking of hitler, the other night after quite a heavy drinking session, i got a taxi home. I was talking to the driver and we were talking about the second world war. He then said "that Hitler, nasty guy but had the right idea) 8O he was of course referring to hitlers ordering of killing jews. Later we passed this high school and he says "hmm i bet a lot of feisty catholic schoolgirls go there) 8O. And to top it all off he kept calling me "boss" I kid you not

[Killzig]

How many nations or even individuals did much about Hitler and Franco until they had something direct and immediate to lose by it.

Uhm, they VOTED AGAINST FRANCO before the civil war even started.

As for governments, religions, etc being misused on occassion -- fair but when you're talking about the catholic church it's a CHRONIC thing. And you shouldn't just shrug it off and say "well what big organization with sway doesn't misuse its power" because you just perpetuate it. APATHY is just as bad as molesting that altar boy yourself. It's as easy as not going to church, not giving a cent towards them, and burning down the occassional church bulletin board that's been plastered with anti choice propaganda on your local campus. Also, my Good Friday Red Meat Only BBQs are not a thing to be missed. Lots of booze, good eats... heh

[Killzig]

Talking of hitler, the other night after quite a heavy drinking session, i got a taxi home. I was talking to the driver and we were talking about the second world war. He then said "that Hitler, nasty guy but had the right idea) 8O he was of course referring to hitlers ordering of killing jews. Later we passed this high school and he says "hmm i bet a lot of feisty catholic schoolgirls go there) 8O. And to top it all off he kept calling me "boss" I kid you not

Heh, hey it's good to see Vic was able to find work after his work in Fallout 2.

[Chris(is evil)]

Lol well if it wasnt for the fact that the taxi driver had hair and was called jim he could have indeed been Vic from fallout 2!!

[Kashluk]

Well said, WWTS.

[Chris(is evil)]

Hey kids one thing to remember about drinking, dont overdo it 8O my left testicle is still sore and i went out on saturday nite i have no idea what went on but apparently it involved me falling off a supermarket trolly in an odd angle

[desertf]

Kashluk if you are such a god fairing person why do you HATE the US? Isn't hate something God does not want people to do... LOL. Just saying "God" makes me laugh.

Whatever...

[HappySuitcase Man]

my left testicle is still sore and i went out on saturday nite i have no idea what went on but apparently it involved me falling off a supermarket trolly in an odd angle

Oh. Sorry. It's totally my fault. Y'see, I was really jetting off on speed, and I really needed twenty bucks...