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ApTyp
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Post by ApTyp »

King of Creation wrote:Oh yeah..cause EVERY Chechen is a fucking terrorist. Are you stupid?
No. But EVERY Chechen supports Chechen terrorists.
The majority of terrorist attacks in that area are done by foreign groups who claim to fight for the Chechen cause.
Russian government's Jedi mind trick to counter United States government's Jedi mind trick. Foreign terrorist groups are either on strictly training and supply missions, or under direct control of Chechen warlords.
And even if they were all Chechens, they would have a DAMN GOOD REASON FOR KILLING AS MANY RUSSIANS AS POSSIBLE.
Chechen genocide bad, Russian genocide good? Oopsie!
In the history of the world, there has never been such an outrageous genocide or ethnic cleansing of a people. Russia has killed or uprooted more than half of the entire Chechen population. HALF.
Gee, maybe they should've thought about that before declaring an open rape/murder season on Russian population of Chechnya in the months preceeding first Chechyen war? Cry me a river.
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Post by Kashluk »

King of Creation wrote:In the history of the world, there has never been such an outrageous genocide or ethnic cleansing of a people. Russia has killed or uprooted more than half of the entire Chechen population. HALF.
t3h 1nt3rw3b wrote:By conservative estimates, the population of the United states prior to European contact was greater than 12 million. Four centuries later, the count was reduced by 95% to 237 thousand.
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ApTyp, it wouldn't hurt if you studied a little:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe ... 565049.stm
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/chechnyatime1.html

The "first Chechnyan war" actually goes back centuries, not just decades. The "rape/murder season" you mentioned took place at the time when the Chechnyan republic tried to declare independence, but was (or was tried to) put down with force and *then* the Chechns answered with violence of their own. It is not negotiable, which side is the aggressor, had the Imperial Russia's/Soviet Union's/Russian Federation's leaders given Chechns their independence, this whole forgotten war scenario would not exist. And about the Russian population in the area... It was "forced immigrancy" in the 19th century and forward, most of the time involving taking land and living space from the original inhabitants. Imperialism ring a bell?
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Post by VasikkA »

ApTyp wrote:No. But EVERY Chechen supports Chechen terrorists.
So would you, if you were a chechen.

The relative amount of assholes in a population is somewhat constant no matter the ethnicity. The bad thing is that disputes, whether they're from historical, cultural or other differences, tend to cause a spire of hatred that affects future generations making it harder to end the dispute. In that light, Russia's actions in Chechnya are incredibly stupid, even if chechens are rapist cocksuckers or not. Historical events should have no importance in making decisions for the future.
ApTyp
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Post by ApTyp »

It has nothing to do with history or ethnicity. It has everything to do with their culture. So don't give me the "relative amount of assholes is ... constant" bullshit.
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Post by VasikkA »

ApTyp wrote:It has everything to do with their culture.
And that somehow justifies eradicating them? If only things were that simple... ask the israelis.
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Post by ApTyp »

If Russia wanted to "eradicate" Chechens, they would've done it a long time ago. They had the means. There is no such thing as Chechyen ethnic cleansing.
Kashluk

Post by Kashluk »

Well ethnic cleansing might not be the exactly right word for the Chechnyan situation, since Russians ain't exactly trying to completely whipe them off, they're just trying to enslave them what do you call that again oh right enforcing imperialistic politics on less advanced cultures and ethnicities while trying to build a foothold in central asia to boost economicgrowthandstrengthendifferentkindsofresourceproductioninthearea.
ApTyp
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Post by ApTyp »

"Enslave them"? What fantasy world do you live in? It's a police operation, not alien invasion.
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Post by Spazmo »

King of Creation wrote:In the history of the world, there has never been such an outrageous genocide or ethnic cleansing of a people. Russia has killed or uprooted more than half of the entire Chechen population. HALF.
The only completely successful genocide in the history of the world was against the people of Tasmania by the British Empire. Nobody in the world today can claim to be of Tasmanian descent. I learnt this from Kurt Vonnegut, who is a gloomy and ponderous man.
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King of Creation
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Post by King of Creation »

ApTyp wrote:If Russia wanted to "eradicate" Chechens, they would've done it a long time ago. They had the means. There is no such thing as Chechyen ethnic cleansing.
Do you people read anything? Ethnic cleansing is the forceful removal of an ethnic group from an area. Genocide is the elimination of an entire gene pool. There is a HUGE difference. What is happening in Chechnya is CLEARLY ethnic cleansing, and some say genocide is also taking place. When you have in upwards of 2/3 of an entire population being forcibly removed from an area, that's obviously ethnic cleansing. Don't try to argue against it, because it is a FACT.
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ApTyp
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Post by ApTyp »

King of Creation wrote: What is happening in Chechnya is CLEARLY ethnic cleansing,
Lies and propaganda.
and some say genocide is also taking place.
More propaganda by terrorism support groups like KavkazCenter.
When you have in upwards of 2/3 of an entire population being forcibly removed from an area, that's obviously ethnic cleansing. Don't try to argue against it, because it is a FACT.
Surprise, asshole - most of those people were Russians. FACT.
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Post by Brother None »

King of Creation wrote:Do you people read anything? Ethnic cleansing is the forceful removal of an ethnic group from an area. Genocide is the elimination of an entire gene pool. There is a HUGE difference. What is happening in Chechnya is CLEARLY ethnic cleansing, and some say genocide is also taking place. When you have in upwards of 2/3 of an entire population being forcibly removed from an area, that's obviously ethnic cleansing. Don't try to argue against it, because it is a FACT.
True enough, but I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle. Whenever words like ethnic cleansing or genocide pop up, people always assume that the genocide or ethnic cleansing is the reason for itself an sich, like the Holocaust

But it isn't. The famous Armenian genocide happened as a reaction to Armenian resistance which disabled to Ottoman war effort during WW I.

Chechnya is a complex case. It was a war-front from somewhere in the 17th century to the 19th century (at least) and stayed a constant problem. After the fall of the SU Russia had to give back a lot of countries it conquered not only during communism but also during the Tsarist days. They had to draw the line somewhere and Chechnya just kind of drew the short end of the stick.

The problem is a political one. They can't give up Chechnya without sending another house of cards tumbling down, from their Southern countries to disputed borders between China and Russia to the isles between Russia and Japan. That's a political non-option, so it's war. Ethnic cleansing in that sense seems to only viable way out, as they can't grant freedom to Chechnya

But hell, that's rediculous, Russia has little to gain from ethnically cleansing the area. They simply want to win, permanently, and are fighting a war which is costing them many, many lives. If the result is that it looks like ethnic cleansing, so be it, that happens sometimes during war.
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Kashluk

Post by Kashluk »

A stale-mate, lose-lose situation, so to speak.

Fuck, I love humanity.
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Post by ApTyp »

Kharn, you forgot to add that there are elements in Russian military, Chechyen civil government, and "resistance" who profit from the war in one way or another. The corruption on all levels makes it very tough to enforce any kind of order in the region. The natives in charge aren't helping it either.
Kashluk

Post by Kashluk »

There's always someone who makes money out of others' misery, be it war or anything else. There's always a certain amount of corruption involved in everything as well. What would you imagine from a crappy nation of one million people that's practically been a warzone for the past three or four hundred years.
ApTyp
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Post by ApTyp »

Yes, but like second Iraq war, Chechnya campaigns began with intention to bring order and stability to this shithole (the motives were different, Bush wanted a foothold in Middle East, Kremlin's true motives are unknown), and the corruption is really fucking with those objectives.
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Post by Kashluk »

Well Kremlin's motives aren't that much different, pretty much the same they want to secure their borders and strengthen their foothold in Central Asia.
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Post by King of Creation »

ApTyp wrote:
King of Creation wrote: What is happening in Chechnya is CLEARLY ethnic cleansing,
Lies and propaganda.
How can you even think that? It's completely ignorant to disagree. When any ethnic group, Chechen or otherwise, is forcibly moved out of their "claimed" territory, to the tune of up to 2/3 of their entire population....THAT IS ETHNIC CLEANSING. If you argue against that, then it's like you're arguing that the Earth doesn't orbit the sun. It's indisputable fact. There's no lies, no propaganda. In fact, since I live in the United States, the only propaganda I would be regularly exposed to would be propaganda bolstering the Russian position. For christs sake, Bush thinks all Chechens are in al Qaeda!
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Post by Spazmo »

Yeah, but the Soviets did that to fucking everybody. They were wacky that way.

And why is there no sympathy for the Tasmanians? The poor, poor Tasmanians...
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Post by Retlaw83 »

King of Creation wrote:... In fact, since I live in the United States, the only propaganda I would be regularly exposed to would be propaganda bolstering the Russian position. For christs sake, Bush thinks all Chechens are in al Qaeda!
Speaking of the war on terrorism, Iraq, and Chechnya, anyone else ever notice that most of the taped beheadings of civilian prisoners in Iraq are done with combat knives? I'm not saying Chechens are over there, but beheading by combat knife tends to be a Chechen tradition while the various Iraqi ethnicities traditionally use swords.
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