All Our Base Are Belong to China!

[Europa13]

Iraqis have been hardened by many years of constant horror. Americans are soft and weak. Also, the Iraqi army was complete crap, unlike the US Army which is properly equipped and trained.

It wasn't "crap" at least, The Iraqi army had better artillery than we did during the first gulf war, but we had better countfire (explanation: Radar tracks incoming enemy round, unit extrapolates the rounds origin and then the counterfire team send the cordinates to the FDC and then the FDC sends it to the guns, our guns fire and blow their artillery pieces to hell). Of course, many have made similar mistakes, putting too much stock into 1 thing, instead of having broader investments & such.

[johnnygothisgun]

You must forgive my asking, but did you mean "claret" as in a reference to the British raids in Indonesia?

No. I was referring to claret.

Helpful ? Probably not. Illuminating ? Not my place.

My mistake. I thought you chose claret because, in this instance, it could have had a wonderful double meaning.

Incidentally, claret reminds one of the very thing Americans might use to defeat their insurgent enemies; the tactics used by the British in Burma, Indonesia, and Malaysia, characterized by the winning of "hearts and minds" (and, by extension, keeping popular support away from the bad guys), an unbelievably successful method of operating that we Americans choose to ignore. You can't win the people over by just passing out gum and penicillin.

[Redeye]

2+2=3 IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE!!111 JUST BELIVE INNIT!!11

2+2=5, for greater values of 2.
So if lesser values are used ...

[Ranger]

O.k. aparently there are people on this list who like to take things too seriously. 2+2=3 is impossible. It's hard scientific fact. I was refering to things that don't have constant natural laws and effects behind them. In a well thought out and planned war my tactic of riding the tank would be infeasible. The tank would never be far enough away from it's own lines or troops for it to ever happen. But in order to get things like that over here, a lot of nukes and other such destructive devices would have to be used that would devastate the infrastructure to the point where a lone tank riding around on it's own is possible. Let me just finish with never underestimate the power of the populace. History is full of examples of "hillbilly Bob and his ragtag army of rednecks" defeating larger and better equiped and trained profesional armies. (The American Revolution ring a bell anyone?)

[Wolfman Walt]

I thought we were talking about Stalinism?

[airsoft guy]

XM8? As in the new plastic rifle of the US Army? Wasn't it scrapped due to serious heat tolerance issues?

No... Though it is plastic and very light and versitile. Its generally just a good all around weapon, I like the add-ons... Sniper, Machinegunner, Close quarters, etc... Everythings interchangeable... And it uses standard NATO rounds, which are easy to come by... You can dunk it in water and not worry about water getting inside the weapon, she'll fire. And finally, like I said, "no", it's still slated to replace the M16/M4.

Problem is us civilians aren't going to be able to get our hands on no XM8 and not just because of laws (although I'm quite sure it's considered a assault weapon, even in a semi-automatic form, under the 1989 import ban). HK has a reputation of shitty customer service. They treat civilian customers like dog shit because of their government contracts.

So put the idea of getting an XM8 out of your head and instead invest in some other tried and true long arm, AK's, AR's various bolt action rifles, maybe a shotgun instead. Whatever, something common that a lot of people have with lots of spare parts and information available for is better. You don't want your $2,000 rifle shitting on you in the middle of a gun battle between mutated squid/buffalo zombies and not having anyone around that knows how to fix it.

As for not being trained in combat or to use weapons as effectively as those in the military it doesn't really matter. There are 90 million gun owners in the United States holding over 250 million firearms. That's a lot of people. A LOT of people. With a LOT of guns. They could hand them out, hide some of them for later, whatever. Plus a lot of these couch commandos sit around reading books and learning everything they can on tactics and shit. Combine that with current and former military personnel as well as the police, all of them have training in combat situations and not all of them are loyal to The Man in every situation.

The point is don't discount the drunken redneck faction in this country. There's enough of them that they could really fuck shit up for any enemy, foreign or domestic.

[Kashluk]

And that enemy could just be democracy, freedom of speech and thought.
Lynch the swell guy, yeehaw.

[Wolfman Walt]

Lynch the swell guy, yeehaw.

Who also have guns and the police on their side.

[airsoft guy]

Anything can become the enemy. Anything could become tyrannical. In fact the enemy could use democracy as camouflage.

Besides, I'm all about equality, so if we're gonna lynch all the swell guy we gotta toss in some Jews, Mexican gang bangers, Japanese businessmen and a couple crackers for good measure.

And just because it's a lynching doesn't mean we gotta hang 'em either. We could burn them, drown them, have them fight each other all Thunderdome style. We'll sell tickets and make money off it. It's brilliant I tell you.

[Blargh]

I thought you chose claret because, in this instance, it could have had a wonderful double meaning.

While it may not have been wonderful, my use of claret was deliberate and in this instance, appears to have been missed. No matter, I unreservedly acknowledge that it was of a rather faint and narrow scope.

Incidentally, claret reminds one of the very thing Americans might use to defeat their insurgent enemies; /snip

Most certainly. I suspect that effort placed into such an initiative would be advantageous in many ways. Chief amongst which would be a probable lower rate of casualties. Which would not only lend greater support for an extended campaign at home, but would have provided a chance to be greeted and welcomed as liberator as intended, rather than an oppressive, unwanted occupation force. Excellent opportunities for positive press coverage, also.

Such a pity, opportunities squandered.

My mistake.

*smiles*

Indeed. Oho.

In fact the enemy could use democracy as camouflage.

The enemy is at home. Everywhere. Democracy in this age is more often than not an illusion of choice, of consequence, of power. By virtue of my life span, I cannot be certain democracy ever was true to itself. Sad.

[Ranger]

Yeah simple weapons are best when you consider that an invasion or civil war qould knock out enough things that getting repairs would be dificult if not impossible. THe AK or the AR is about as high tech as I would be willing to go myself. There's just too much that can go wrong the more you take humans out of things (Ie Bullets loading on their own "Smart bullets" that fly to the target on their own... In the old days armies had swords. A simple weapon. Not much can go wrong with them and they still maintain effectiveness, but very few people know how to use them anymore because they're "Obsolete") I like my bolt action rifle. It was cheap ($100) and replacement parts are cheap ($10-$15) and there aren't many parts to break down. The more complex you make a weapon the less likley it is to truly become a main battle weapon. It takes more time to train, only smarter people will really be able to handle it effectively, and while I know that not all infantry or marines are by any means stupid, there's enough of them that taking out all the "simple" people in the ranks would effectivley make armies smaller. Not to mention costs of the weapon. If we're looking for a replacement for the M16 then we need to make it here. What happens if we start using this german gun and all of a sudden we go to war with germany? Not good, especially since we've been outsourcing most of our manufacturing jobs in the past 12-20 years.

[Aonaran]

Problem is us civilians aren't going to be able to get our hands on no XM8 and not just because of laws (although I'm quite sure it's considered a assault weapon, even in a semi-automatic form, under the 1989 import ban). HK has a reputation of shitty customer service. They treat civilian customers like dog shit because of their government contracts.

I thought I'd never get a P90. My understanding is they are going to be available to civilians before the year is up.

[ApTyp]

90 million gun owners in America sounds a bit too much. There are only, like, 280 million people in America, you're pretty much saying that 1 out of every 3 people owns a gun. I think the numbers are much lower, no more than 30 million, but if you have statistics to back up your point, I'd love to see them.

[Europa13]

Problem is us civilians aren't going to be able to get our hands on no XM8 and not just because of laws (although I'm quite sure it's considered a assault weapon, even in a semi-automatic form, under the 1989 import ban). HK has a reputation of shitty customer service. They treat civilian customers like dog shit because of their government contracts.

There is no "assault weapon" ban in the US, GW Bush allowed it to expire. I think that also includes the large capacity magazines as well. And since this is the case, why would HK decline a profit off of thousands of citizens who'd want a XM8? Believe me, they'll be available. And I've heard lots of good reviews from guys I know personally, who used them overseas during their trial phase and they really liked them. Personally, I'd want to test one out myself before I bought one, but as long as I found no "big" glitch with the weapon, I'd probably get it because of it's versatility.

[Wolfman Walt]

I think the large capacity magazines were a seperate ban, but I could be wrong? Still, it's easy to find pre-ban magazines. Theres currently (well as of 2003) 80,000,000 gun owners. 217.8 Million people lived in the US aged 18 or over according to the US census board in 2003. It puts 1 gun in every 2.72 hands which seems pretty consistant.

[ApTyp]

Yo, XM8 is an automatic rifle. You can't sell new automatic rifles to the public today, only the old ones.

Another semi-auto sporter .223? Only this time, one that looks like a water gun? I can't see that flying off the shelves.

Jesus, people, next time you quote number of gun owners in the U.S., GIVE THE SOURCE OF THE STATISTICS, AND THE YEAR.

[A_M]

I think the large capacity magazines were a seperate ban, but I could be wrong? Still, it's easy to find pre-ban magazines. Theres currently (well as of 2003) 80,000,000 gun owners. 217.8 Million people lived in the US aged 18 or over according to the US census board in 2003. It puts 1 gun in every 2.72 hands which seems pretty consistant.

Shiiit, with so many people with guns why would another country bother to invade the US ? The could rather send some agents to provoke a civil war in the country. US would be seriously fucked up after that. Or maybe it's just my imagination

[airsoft guy]

The 1994 Assault Weapon Ban was a ban on the production of domestic "assault weapons" (rifles for the civilian market that simply look like military rifles, no full-auto rock and roll all over your mom's face here, folks). But in 1989 President Bush Sr. signed another ban on "assault weapons." Now rifles and shotguns manufactured outside of the United States must have certain features to make them "sporting arms." This is why you don't see hardly any SIG55x series rifles, Steyr AUGs, why all of the AK's that come into this country are just parts kits that someone has to put together.

Unless it came in before 1989 you're not getting the XM8 unless one of two things happens, they produce it here, a civilian version of the rifle. They're not going to make a full auto version for the civilian market because of the Gun Control Act of 1968 which prohibited the manufacture of any new machine guns for the civilian market. Or if they have an HK Time Machine AND decide to produce a civilian version overseas.

Now none of this is going to happen though because A) HK is a company of shit monsters who think they're hot tits because of government contracts. The civilian market is small beans to them, they makes their money from The Man. Same thing with Colt, why do you think you don't see any new Colt products? Because, they told the civilian market to lick ass because of their government contracts. Ask anyone who has an HK firearm, ask them what kind of customer service they've gotten from them. I'm quyite certain most, if not all the answers will be along the lines of, "it was the shittiest shit that ever shat."

Seriously, fuck HK. They think they're the biggest and the best, but they're not. They're a shitty company that at one time was a good company with good ideas and then management decided to fuck that up. I'm sure the meeting went something like this:

Exec 1: "Hey, we're doing pretty good these days. We make rifles and pistols and even shotguns for police, military and the civilian market. But, it just seems like we're missing something..."

Exec 2: "Hmm, you know, you're right, we put out a good product and people love us, what can we do to make us look even better?"

Exec 1: "Ooo! I know, let's tell the civilian market to shove it up their ass because we don't need their money, we got government contracts!"

Exec 2: "Brilliant!"

Exec 3: "Indeed!"

CEO: "Then it's agreed, we shall cut off support to the civilian market. Now, lets go into my private chamber to read from the Necronomicon and eat some babies, ZIEG HEIL!"

At least that's how it went in my head.

As for the P90, it's designed as a sub machine gun so it doesn't have a lot of the stuff a battle rifle would have. To get it in to the country they take out the full auto function and put a 16.5 inch barrel on it to comply with the 1938 National Firearms Act and the 1968GCA

Onto the number of guns and gun owners in America the NRA has some numbers on it:

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets ... spx?ID=126

Guns, Gun Ownership, & RTC at All-Time Highs, Less "Gun Control," and Violent Crime at 27-Year Low

Guns. The number of privately owned guns in the U.S. is at an all-time high. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) estimates that there were about 215 million guns in 1999,1 when the number of new guns was averaging about 4.5 million (about 2%) annually.2 A report for the National Academy of Sciences put the 1999 figure at 258 million.3 According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, there were 30.7 million approved (new and used) NICS firearm transactions between 2000 2003.4

Gun Owners. The number of gun owners is also at an all-time high. The U.S. population is at an all-time high (about 294 million), and rises about 1% annually.5 Numerous surveys over the last 40+ years have indicated that just under half of all households have at least one gun owner.6 Some surveys since the late 1990s have indicated a smaller incidence of gun ownership,7 probably because of some respondents' concerns about "gun control," due perhaps to the policies of the Clinton Administration.

Right-to-Carry. The number of RTC states is at an all-time high, up from 10 in 1987 to 38 today.8 In 2003, states with RTC laws, compared to other states, had lower violent crime rates on average. Total violent crime was lower by 27%, murder by 32%, robbery by 45%, and aggravated assault by 20%.9

"Less Gun Control." As violent crime has declined, many "gun control" laws have been eliminated or made less restrictive. Many states have eliminated prohibitory or restrictive carry laws, in favor of RTC laws. The federal Brady Act's waiting period on handgun sales ended in 1998, in favor of the NRA-supported National Instant Check, and some states thereafter eliminated waiting periods, purchase permit requirements, or other laws delaying gun sales. The federal "assault weapon" ban expired. All states now have hunter protection laws, 46 have range protection laws, 45 prohibit local jurisdictions from imposing gun laws more restrictive than state law, 44 protect the right to arms in their constitutions, and 33 prohibit frivolous lawsuits against the firearm industry.10

Studies by and for Congress, the Congressional Research Service, the Library of Congress, the National Institute of Justice, the National Academy of Sciences, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and researchers who support "gun control," have found no evidence that "gun control" reduces crime.11

Crime. The FBI reports that the nation's total violent crime rate declined every year between 1991 200312 and in the first six months of 2004.13 In 2003, the violent crime rate fell to a 27-year low, lower than any time since 1976. Murder rates, while fluctuating slightly, have been lower in recent years than at any time since 1965. The 2003 robbery and aggravated assault rates were lower than any time since 1968 and 1984, respectively. Since 1991, total violent crime has decreased 37%; murder and non-negligent manslaughter, 43%; rape, 24%; robbery, 48%; and aggravated assault, 32%.14

1. BATF, "Crime Gun Trace Reports (1999) National Report," Nov. 2000, p. ix (www.atf.gov/firearms/ycgii/1999/index.htm).
2. BATF, "Firearms Commerce in the United States 2001/2002" (www.atf.gov/pub/index.htm#Firearms).
3. National Research Council, Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review, National Academies Press, 2005.
4. BJS, "Background Checks for Firearm Transfers, 2003" (www.ojp.usdoj.gov./bjs/abstract/bcft03.htm).
5. Bureau of the Census (http://www.census.gov/popest/states/NST-ann-est.html).
6. Gary Kleck, Targeting Firearms, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997, pp. 94, 98-100.
7. E.g., BJS Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics 2002, Table 2.58, (www.albany.edu/sourcebook/).
8. See NRA RTC fact sheet (within www.nraila.org/Issues/Filter.aspx?ID=003).
9. See FBI, Crime in the United States 2003 (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#cius) for state crime statistics.
10. See NRA-ILA Compendium of State Firearms Laws (www.nraila.org/media/misc/compendium.htm).
11. Federal "assault weapon" ban: Roth, Koper, et al., Impact Evaluation of the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act of 1994, March 13, 1997 (www.urban.org/url.cfm?ID=406797); Reedy and Koper, "Impact of handgun types on gun assault outcomes: a comparison of gun assaults involving semiautomatic pistols and revolvers," Injury Prevention 2003, (http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/9/2/151); Koper et al., Report to the National Institute of Justice, An Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003, June 2004 (www.sas.upenn.edu/jerrylee/jlc-new/Rese ... _final.pdf); Wm. J. Krouse, Congressional Research Service Report for Congress, "Semiautomatic Assault Weapons Ban," Dec. 16, 2004. "Gun control," generally: Library of Congress, Report for Congress: Firearms Regulations in Various Foreign Countries, May 1998, LL98-3, 97-2010; Task Force on Community Preventive Service, "First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence: Firearms Laws," Morbidity and Mortaility Weekly Report, Oct. 3, 2003 (www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm); National Research Council, Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review, National Academies Press, 2005 (http://books.nap.edu/books/0309091241/html/index.html).
12. Note 9 and BJS (http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/).
13. FBI (www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel04/pressrel121304.htm and www.fbi.gov/ucr/2004/6mosprelim04.pdf).
14. Note 10. Condensed at www.nraila.org, click on "Research," then "Crime Statistics." Note that National Crime Victimization Surveys indicate violent crime at a 30-year low (www.ojp.usdoj.gov./bjs/pub/press/cv03pr.htm).

Posted: 1/18/2005

The problem with getting hard numbers on the number of guns and people with guns is that there is no national registry for them. It's not like you can go to some big facy government computer and scroll down the list to see if your milkman is packing heat or anything. It's all rough estimates, speculation, asking Gypsies and shit, yo.

Another semi-auto sporter .223? Only this time, one that looks like a water gun? I can't see that flying off the shelves.

I can see it flying off the shelves because it has that stupid HK logo on it. I'm quite certain that if HK came out with a product called Tactical Dogshit®, a box full of the finest German dog shit, people would buy it simply because of this

[Wolfman Walt]

What Airsoft said. The number 80 million comes from various sources, but all those sources are using them to argue the fact that more people die of bad doctors then accidental firearm deaths. I got it off of Rush Limbaughs website, Here, and a variety of other places like the NRA, however the truth of the matter is that this is probably just a rough guestimate as theres no real way of keeping track of how many guns are in homes. Theres no gun registry and guns last for countless generations and are handed down through families.

[ApTyp]

Without a state or federal gun registry, I can't see a reliable way to get the number of gun owners in this country. I've heard people say water buckets kill more children a year than guns, but that figure was based on children ages 1-4... You'll forgive me if I take claims from any side of the gun issue with a grain of salt.

Besides, not every gun owner belongs to NRA. Some refuse to be their member because they claim that NRA has become a gun industry lobby, not gun owners lobby.