Wasteland Merc 3 Demo

[Thor Kaufman]

This thread is getting more and more tedious to read...

C'mon people, be creative.. otherwise I'm splitting this to the wastes..

NEIN!

This thread is too shitty even for Wasteland.

[Brother None]

Make something happen to Arroyo after 1 year.

Couldn't you, y'know...make destroyed_arroyo identical to arroyo?

Well there is tons of these kinda things. Put this toghether with all the tedious work that needs to be put in with maper that doesnt allow to many items on the map or it destroys the map, any new graphic being pain in the ass to get it to look fallout and not out of place in there and scripting system that is way limited you pretty much cant do nothing more advanced than Wasteland Merc 2 mod. And anyone who claims anything different has not really looked in to it that much.

Really?

So dude_obj is talking out of his ass? His A.I. programming alone seems to be a dozen steps above anything WM 2 did.

Besides, who cares about advanced or not when the mod sucks?

And most stupid coments so far i heard is that a total conversion mod must follow the games canon or its not really a fallout mod.

No, it's a Fallout mod because it's a thing that mods Fallout, or whatever, so yeah, it's a Fallout mod.

It's a shitty Fallout mod, though. Total conversion mods must follow the game cannon to be of any interest to people who actually liked the first games. You just want to rape the spirit of Fallout right in the ear.

[Haris]

Couldn't you, y'know...make destroyed_arroyo identical to arroyo?

Thats what i thought first time when i was making Wasteland Merc 1. But than i realised that if a player kills someone in there the npc would resurect after 1 year. And if he happens to use it as his item dumping place they would all dissapear.

His A.I. programming alone seems to be a dozen steps above anything WM 2 did.

No its not more advanced than wm2. Its as advanced as junkies using jet in den and walking around in regular fallout 2.

[Brother None]

Thats what i thought first time when i was making Wasteland Merc 1. But than i realised that if a player kills someone in there the npc would resurect after 1 year. And if he happens to use it as his item dumping place they would all dissapear.

Well then, make it a starting location without NPCs. A good starting point for a story might be "you wake up in the middle of the desert." Problem solved. Dumbasses who store stuff there are dumbasses who lose stuff.

Lich did much the same...shouldn't be using him as an example, he's possible the only Fallout modder I know of with less of a clue about the setting than you.

[Haris]

So you mean i shold have empty location at start that is marked on the map. Or you mean make it dissapear like in second apocalypse. So you exit the map and now your on worldmap and there is no town under you. Than destroyed arroyo spawns afterwards. I done that in second apocalypse. You still have to fidle with it. The problem isnt in solving the thing with arroyo if you plan to have player start at exact same location and at exact same time as fallout 2. The thing is all those big mod promises the game to be played in different time and different start location and alot of other things that can never be changed.


Well anyway i found solution so i dont have to deal with this at all in Wasteland Merc 3. You start at arroyo map and than that movie plays that is in the demo and spawns you to main town map in the mod. Than you never even exit to worldmap.

Total conversion mods must follow the game cannon to be of any interest to people who actually liked the first games. You just want to rape the spirit of Fallout right in the ear.

They dont have to follow the canon at all. I bought Half life 2 where you are a legendary hero fighting opresing alien corupted state. And i bought Day of deafeat mod for HL2 where you chose to play germans or americans and fight it out in ww2.

Dumbasses who store stuff there are dumbasses who lose stuff.

I thought so in many situations when i was making wm mods. But than you end up getting 100 angry emails about how your mod sucks cause the person lost all his stuff. And your forced to release addon to make the game easier like we did with Vault net addon for Wasteland merc 2.

[Nicolai]

Total conversion mods must follow the game cannon to be of any interest to people who actually liked the first games. You just want to rape the spirit of Fallout right in the ear.

Heh, what? There is no rule that says that a TC has to be set in the same universe as the game it mods.

[Bloodlust]

Sure,there is no standard rule that a TC must belong in the same universe.Take the total convertion that was made for starcraft for example,which turned it into warcraft(well,before blizzard shut them down).
But it was the rule that we started with,and we plan to stick to it even if that means that the project may never be released due to the extra amount of work.

[Agrajag]

You cant remove 13 years time limit and you cant change the time at all in fallout 2. You can not rewind the time. Time goes from start time to time when 13 years has passed and than it starts over but there is a hardcoded thing that tells engine play the end movie and end the game if time start going backwards or reaches those 13 years.

The 13 year limit is not a problem in a game similar to fallout 2. You're not supposed to play it for thirteen fucking years. You can change the starting year to whatever you want, and that's enough as far as FMF is concerned (it's set in 2201, 40 years before fallout 2).

You are not able to change start location on the map and your char must start at Arroyo. Now you can move Arroyo anywhere on the map and you char will start there but when you exit the map to worldmap your screen will be where Arroyo is suposed to be. Making it look really buged and wierd. So your forced to start in Arroyo and your force to have Arroyo on its original place on the map. But it doesnt end there. There is a hardcoded thing that tells the game to switch Arroyo after 1 year to destroyed Arroyo. So your forced to be creative with this. Make something happen to Arroyo after 1 year.

This is not true. I don't know how Temaperacl did it, but I know he solved it. I've seen the prototype, and you sure as hell don't start in Arroyo, and we have another "world" map, and the starting location is to the east, not in the north west as in fallout 2.

I don't know about the other issues you talked about, but it seems to me that we're not half as limited as you say we are.

[Haris]

This is not true. I don't know how Temaperacl did it, but I know he solved it. I've seen the prototype, and you sure as hell don't start in Arroyo, and we have another "world" map, and the starting location is to the east, not in the north west as in fallout 2.

Yea he eather hacked the exe to move it or your talking about starting at different location but when you enter the worldmap first your staring at the location where arroyo use to be first but there is no arroyo there and your char is way across the map. And you do start in Arroyo he just called Arroyo different in name tag on the map. Unless he has source code there is no way he could have changed any of what you said he changed.

The 13 year limit is not a problem in a game similar to fallout 2. You're not supposed to play it for thirteen fucking years. You can change the starting year to whatever you want, and that's enough as far as FMF is concerned (it's set in 2201, 40 years before fallout 2).

13 year limit is a problem for anyone that has pc that isnt 3+ years old. You can hack exe to fix this thoe. And no you cant change starting year without source code. How can you rewind it 40 years when time function like a clock in fallout 2 that can only go betwen start year and end year. Its like saying you can rewind a clock to show 25 hours.

[Agrajag]

Whatever, man. It works, even though you say it's impossible.

[Haris]

Fine i can say that i am making this secret mod for fallout 2 that has all new graphics, sticks to the canon has 1000 times more quests than regular fallout 2 and 700 new custom locations and 2000 voiced talking heads all animated and skinned. But i am not allowed to talk openly about it and it may never be released.

[DarkUnderlord]

Fact is, that FMF has failed to fulfill its promises and expectations or even assure us, the audience, of its completion, which is why the bickering and dissing other mod(s) is just idiotic.

As the Project Leader of FMF, I have to say VasikkA is right. We've been working for 4 years on a project which has yet to prove it can actually do anything beyond post lots of "trust us, it'll be cool" news items in an attempt to get more people to help out, join and actually get the damn thing finished.

However, in the project's defense, we are trying to make something which will blow people away (or if you prefer the toned down version, at least have a decent storyline which is some-what intriguing). The problem with that is it means we can't do what Haris does, which is simply pump out maps every other week, throw them together and release it. It means the maps have to wait until we know what's going to be in the location, what buildings we need and so on. It means the quests we're going to have need to be sorted first, which means a bunch of people trying to catch up in IRC at various hours of the day trying to work out details of that quest, come to some sort of agreement then write it all up, think through any problems and what the quest needs and then, after all that's done, get the map made.

Obviously it's a long and pretty time consuming process but I do think it'll mean that in the long run, should FMF actually be released, it will be a game of the Fallout calibre and more importantly, something with a high replayability value which people will enjoy. Hopefully our demo will be out within the next few months and people will be able to see what we have in mind for themselves and we can be judged on that.

I know one thing. Every mod that has promissed real talking heads has died couple of months afterwards.

There are other reasons for most of the dead mods failure but yes, most of the Fallout mods have died so FMF's release is not guaranteed.

Oh and here is another thing. FMF, MR and Yurop and any mod that is similar to those is just not doable in fallout 2 engine without having the source code. Wich basicly means fmf depends on FIFE being released so they can start making the mod. And they said it in public so this is not a sercet.

This isn't true though.

You cant remove 13 years time limit and you cant change the time at all in fallout 2.

You can change the time (simply use a Fallout loading program which over-writes the memory location where the time is stored). No, you can't do it with scripts or anything like that but you can do it if you have some competent programmers on the team who know how to edit memory addresses on the fly, among other things. We're currently looking at the 13 year time limit.

You are not able to change start location on the map and your char must start at Arroyo. Now you can move Arroyo anywhere on the map and you char will start there but when you exit the map to worldmap your screen will be where Arroyo is suposed to be.

Also not true. We have a working prototype which has fixed this too. Same trick as the time.

There is a hardcoded thing that tells the game to switch Arroyo after 1 year to destroyed Arroyo. So your forced to be creative with this. Make something happen to Arroyo after 1 year.

This can also be worked around and fixed.

Than there is the thing with movies being hardcoded in there. You can remove them from .exe file wich is illegal but it doesnt help you much cause if you do that entire world map starts flickering and looks ultra buged as soon as hakuning movie was suposed to be played. So your forced to have short 1 second movies to remove those movies.

This can also be fixed.

Put this toghether with all the tedious work that needs to be put in with maper that doesnt allow to many items on the map

To be fair, that's only a problem if you overload the map.

any new graphic being pain in the ass to get it to look fallout and not out of place in there

We've added a jukebox quite happily, thanks to MF.



We just need to darken it a little bit to make it fit in a lot better. The point is, we're willing to take the time required to do that and make it just right.

and scripting system that is way limited

The scripting system isn't that limited if you know how to change the header files. The 11 talking head limit for example can actually be overcome (not that we'd want that kind of workload on the artists though).

And anyone who claims anything different has not really looked in to it that much.

No, anyone who says otherwise doen't have Temaperacl or Red! on their team (the two people who practically know Fallout's engine inside and out).

I've always seen the strength of FMF being the people we have on board. While a fair few of our dialogue writers are people no-one's ever heard of, we are one of the few mods to have the best Fallout modders on the team and well-known people in the Fallout community. People who have been around for 7+ years in some cases and are here for the long haul.

Now...

Haris: Thank you for not revealing our plot or any other details about FMF's story.

Agrajag: Shut up. We can have this argument when FMF is actually released. VasikkA is right when he says it's stupid to have it now.

[Haris]

Well DU even if i dont belive that it will work out in the end with hard coded stuff. Specially cause it gets illegal to fidle with it in that way. I still wish you good luck with fmf. I didnt quit the project cause i was pissed of or cause i dissliked anything. I just simply wanted to make WM2.

But here is my tip. If your gonna go trough trouble of making talking heads and all that than why not use your big team to make a game from scratch. It would be easier than what you are attempting to do and you would all be able to make money on it.

[Redeye]

okey dokey.


So its all under control...

great relief.

I haven't kept up with FMF.

And I bailed after Wasteland Merc 1.

Not a "MMORPGer" or whatever.. I don't have anything against those people,
I just don't know their stuff.

It seems like maybe the FO2 mods that are along the lines of online multi-
player should maybe be upgraded/modified to FOT.

If a hex-to-oct graphics converter were available.(oho!)

(What I mean is in response to Haris' saying that the WMerc stuff being audience vectored to MMORPG-type folks.)

Then you'd just have to find a way to link
those areas together. Preferably within a campaign.

Man....I just don't know....

maybe anything being produced at all is a sort of miracle.


EXCUSE THE DRUNKEN!

What we say is like "from the mouths of babes", except that it is
alcohol barf and pseudo-knowledgeable info from fucktards.

So there !

[Burnov]

Fuck talking heads.

One thing I don't think wasteland merc delivered on is making the process of building your character an entertaining and rewarding one. Using an analogy of mmorpg-type gameplay I'd say is somewhat accurate. It seems endless drudgery is intrinsic to the whole mmorpg experience, where everything is slow going (to keep you playing and paying). But I think that it really has no place in a fallout mod.

The huge problem with WM2 despite the fact that in concept it's a great game is the fact that doing anything is a tremendous undertaking. Getting a half decent weapon, getting money, it's all just sort of unnecessarily drawn out to extend the gameplay itself. I was kind of hoping for regular fallout guns, regular fallout gameplay, only more open ended with more options to do things and added features. Instead I end up with repeating the same extremely menial and boring tasks to achieve the same things I achieved in a much more timely and entertaining fashion in regular fallout. To me this is breaking a cardinal rule of game design, if it starts to feel more like work than a game, it's probably not a good idea to implement.

Perhaps Haris was too concerned with the game falling into a rut and getting too easy, I don't know, but I think the existing fallout weapons and rate of progress was balanced and all those amendments really threw everything off.

[VasikkA]

Yeah, I really hope Wasteland Merc 3 turns out to be more easily accessible and, yes, easier than its predecessor(never played WM1). Even mods should be designed keeping in mind that a beginner can finish them too.

I find the issue of the 13 year time being too short time to develop your character rather funny. Who the hell wants to play for that long. That's not hardcore, that's stupid.

[Rosh]

(Snip a whole load of shit to excuse the crapfest of Haris' mods.)

Wasteland Merc's target audience wasn't the core fans, if by core fans you mean regular members of nma and dac. It was aimed at people that love mmorpgs and that used to play fallout 1 and 2.

As in, the people who couldn't stand the combat and couldn't get their minds wrapped around that "reading" thing.

Even if its hard to belive that souch people exist for anyone here cause as soon as they tried posting something they been flamed and forced away they do still lurk around and read about fallout.

Right. I really have yet to see any supporter for your mods. Nor have I or anyone at NMA been asked why we don't cover your mod, so...

And they dont have OCD they just like the mmorpg style of playing where you have to work hard for your char.

By doing useless, repetitious tasks over and over again. That is OCD or stupidity. Take your pick. Your active target audience is composed of mental patients and/or morons.

You must be so proud.

Plus even if they wanted to post on these forums they wouldnt have time to do it. Playing mmorpgs takes way to much time.

So why would they play your shitty mod when they could be doing something comparatively productive? If it's gotta be a shitty game with a MMO mechanic, might as well make it the one that matters, if there isn't anything entertaining that is otherwise in a single-player game in the other.

Just take a look at TeaTime since he started playing WOW. He is not half active as he used to be.

Yeah, and developing quality work makes me forget all about you as well. Until someone reminded me about it, I had completely forgotten about Haris and his shitty mods.

Speaking of which...FMF...

Just kidding, but I still have to disagree with DU and VasikkA. FMF has promised to make a mod according to canon, and it's done when it's done, there really isn't any reason to consider promises broken. Granted, there might be some that I didn't see, but the big two of trying to get it done but well and according to canon stick true until they could either be proven otherwise or the project is declared dead.

[Haris]

Yeah, I really hope Wasteland Merc 3 turns out to be more easily accessibleand, yes, easier than its predecessor

Well mmorpg people play there games for 5+ years with same char and thats 2-8 hours per day depending on how addicted you are at the moment. WM2 doesnt take that long thoe it takes about 4 weeks to reach level 99. Its has a slow start but later missions make you advance pretty fast.

The thing with wm2 was that even if you had played fallout 1 and 2 for last 8 years you where total newbie when you started playing wm2 cause basicly no skills had the same values and uses and advantages as fallout 2 skills had.

And you warent the hero in the wasteland. There where much mightier enemies than your self in wm2. For exampe cyborg that has 999hp was never inteded to be killed. He is perfectly eazy to sneak by and loot all the boxes in his area.

Those that didnt played so long tried killing him and just got their ass handed to them and said this is stupid he is imposible. Some figured out that to get his loot you just have to sneak past him. He is pretty stupid and has hard time noticing you.

And than there where those that spent hours and hours just trying to kill him. They saw it as a chalenge and started creating uber chars just to menage to kill him and they did in the end. With good enough critical you are able to kill him. But its just not worth it.

And no WM3 wont be about tedious taskt or mmorpg elements. We are gonna keep crafting only cause its fun. But its wont be as hard as it was in wm2. For example you will be able to craft everything with skill 50% in science and repair.

Allthoe it wont be worthless to raise those skill higher cause you will be able to for example produce more ammo with same amount of resources if you skill is higher. Allso you will have higher chance of producing better quality weapon if your skill is higher. And by better quality i mean there will be 3 different qualities for each weapon. Normal, Good and Excellent.

Other thing that will remove mmorpg feeling from WM3 is that every crafting feature will be automated both mining and cooking. Fishing will be removed cause making it automated would just be a cheat feature.

And WM3 will have main quest. It works something like killing of 9 bosses and in the end you get to kill the big boss. Plus bounch of side quests. The biggest difference betwen WM3 and other 2 wm mods is that in WM3 when you complete a quest its done. Its not redoable. And there will allways be 2 or more ways to solve it. And sometimes depending on how you solve a quest it will triger different quest. And it will all be played in the same town. Quest givers will come to town and once you do their thing they will leave and new ones will come.

And each quest you solve will give you a new advantage. Like well in town gets fixed so you can gather water by wasting food now. Or you get option to drive to mines with your car and so on.

Plus there will be tons of "cinematics" similar as seen in WM3 demo.

Nor have I or anyone at NMA been asked why we don't cover your mod, so...

They know you would have just started acting like an asshole towards them and than baned them. So they pretty much cant be arsed. They have asked me if i wanted them to start flaming you. And i said no. Cause i pretty much dont want you to stop flaming my mod. Every time you do you make it more famous. Plus i really find your ranting amusing. Hack sometimes just for the laughs i even read your long posts to other people that come to nma and ask something simple and you write 2 pages long insult filled rant.

Just take a look what happend with oblivion after all the flaming. It sold way more than expected.

And Rosh if you dont belive that mod is as famous as i claim it to be than just go here http://wastelandmerc.8.forumer.com/index.php and than allso do a google search for it http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&q=%22 ... ning&meta= and just see how many pages are covering it and how many forums in the world there are that are writing about it.

[VasikkA]

Just take a look what happend with oblivion after all the flaming. It sold way more than expected.

Do you really think the popularity makes your mod better? The total number of downloads is irrelevant next to people's actual thoughts and opinions about the mod. You enjoying the shit being thrown at you and all the brag about how widespread your mod is shows what magnitude of an attention whore you are.

About Oblivion... Does huge sales make a game better? In an ideal world, consumers would decide whether to buy a game or not based on the price and the quality of the game. Given that the price is pretty homogenous in the gaming market, it leaves the quality as the main factor contributing to the purchase decision. Unfortunately, consumers aren't rational. Games are marketed and sold with hype and mental images. In Oblivion, the real quality of the game is revealed to the player after the purchase decision.

The thousands of Eastern Europeans who've downloaded/bought a magazine with your mod does not make it better, either.

[Smiley]

Just take a look what happend with oblivion after all the flaming. It sold way more than expected.

Oblivion is flamed by people who expect better content than what they've experienced. I doubt that this paticular group is more than a few % of the people who bought the game.

It isn't a bad game.
But it's not interesting when you've played so many other things, with stories and games that felt unique at the time.

Games today aren't based on us who know what games could be, they're based on a younger generation, who never knew, and maybe never will know what was.