So, what now? More about cRPGs

[Koki]

Ok so this struck me when I was spreading the word about why Oblivion is not a real cRPG and what real cRPG exactly is on other board. It's moot. Even if I do convince people(Which I think I did), this is just a few geeks not coming out of their basement anyway. I know, you know, but that's it, if I will participate in another TES talk and say that it's not real cRPG, I will have to explain it all over again.

In short, we need a way to deliver this to a wider audience.

I am reading The Escapist right now.

So yep, you got it, but you get no cookie because it's obvious. The Escapist is a perfect medium to spread the cancer... the idea around. It will reach only people with more than half a brain because only this kind cares to read it, and this is really all we need since "casual gamer" either doesn't care, or is incapable of logical reasoning alltogether, as you saw yourself on the TES board.

So I propose that someone(*cough*St. Toxic*cough*) write a decent article about what cRPGs are and what are they not. Of course, it can't sound like a manifest, but it's easy to conceal - for example, ask "Where are all the cRPG gone?"* and it's a wet fez's throw from there.

Problems: I have no idea how The Escapist gets their articles. If they "order" them, then, well, chances of submitting one are low to none.
Additionally, from what I saw, people writing there are usually game developers and other scum... other company people. So a random guy on the internet can simply not "get in". This we could fix with submitting the article as DAC as a whole(I suppose we would get it on forums first for proofreading and brainstorming anyway) though. Fallout fans are known in the internet as berserk werebadgers after all.

Why St. Toxic: He can write. Oh, even I can write, but I never had a way with words, and I think St. Toxic's skill is biggest at DAC, from what I read. And another thing, which is even more important, is that he treats this seriously("Summary I", and an attempt to moderate FO3/THE FUTURE), which is harder to stumble upon than writing skillz.

So?


* - Well, think about it. Name all cRPGs which came out. Fallout, Fallout 2, Torment(I think, never played it), Arcanum, and... well? Arcanum was out in 2001 and is the newest. Do the math.

[Thor Kaufman]

You and Subhuman really make a nice couple

[Jesus Christ]

A great idea...


If the good saint is not up for it we still have some good soldiers talented in the area of writing.


If we are to do this however, we will need to make a serious thread... (brace yourself for this)... in the wasteland, so as to keep the nonDACers out of the loop until release.

[Spazmo]

St. Toxic? Oh, sure, don't ask the guy who's an editor for the #1 rootinest tootinest coat-hanger abortinest RPG site...

ANYWAYS two points to make

#1 - If you don't want to make it seem like a piece just intended to shit all over games you don't like, that's easy. Just don't mention any games by name. Address principles of design and so on.

#2 - Having multiple people write it is a terrible idea because you'll never get anywhere. Likewise, having the entire community approve it before it gets sent is counterproductive, so just put it under one guy's name.

BONUS POINT #3 - Capital idea, The Escapist is a magnificent rag. I'm sure there's a contact address for their editor somewhere in there.

EDIT - And here are submission guidelines

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/page/contact

[S4ur0n27]

Wtf is the Escapist anyway?

Their readers aren't anything more than a few geeks anyway... and it's not like your manifesto would have any real impact. I mean, this is a business about computer games. It's not about anyone's life or anything serious, after all.

[Mismatch]

Wtf is the Escapist anyway?

I dont know either

[box]

I call Oblivion an RPG out of convenience. It's not, really, though it has those "RPG elements," whatever they are.

In this case, if Beth calls Oblvion an RPG, then I'm going to call it an RPG. But they're not exactly complimenting themselves by calling their a pig a cow. But I guess they'd rather be a fake, bust ass RPG than a FPS.

We can give 'em some credit for that, at least.

I mean, this is a business about computer games.

Really, yes. This is just semantic bullshit. I mean, good luck and all that, but look at your end result: the kiddies on TES forums are still going to call their pig a cow, and you'll have one more sophistic weapon in your arsenal against whiny little pukes.

Fuck 'em, I say, they're not worth the effort.

[Subhuman]

What the pissbot said.

[Jesus Christ]

Support for our troops seems to be fading fast.

ST. Toxic...

We need YOU!

If not to submit to the Escapist, than at least to boost the moral of our good soldiers here at DAC. I as your savior I would do it myself, but I have never realy had a way with words as you have been so blessed with. I was only good at dieing. Maybe here at DAC, NMA, RPGcodex, this will be only the beginning. Your words will spread like wildfire and new blood will come to join in this good fight. The children spawned from the demon known as Oblivion will surely take up the sword against such an uprising, but they will be no match for our plasma rifles and gauze rifles.

The forces of evil will continue to be, catering to the masses with the money, but the righteous few who understand will finally be united. Under the guidance of virtuous leadership the likes of KoC, St. Toxic, Mismatch, and even Susan (he can be captain of the Spam Squad) this army can finally RISE and demand a return of the true RPG.

What say you brother?

Shall we make our final stand together, with our brothers from across the interweb?

Or do we do nothing as our DAC brother continue to fall?

[St. Toxic]

I think St. Toxic's skill is biggest at DAC.

I like you too Koki, but like Spazmo said -- "St. Toxic?" -- I'm not the prime choice for this job. The idea is good, and I'll read through the guidelines the first chance I get. Shall we get our facts sorted about what is and what isn't an rpg once and for all?

[Jesus Christ]

Shall we get our facts sorted about what is and what isn't an rpg once and for all?

Lets find the points on which we all (reasonably most) agree and avoid the rest.

[St. Toxic]

Gosh, let's get started.

- Setting, timeline, story, npc's, combat are not defining features for an rpg. Meaning that by being there in a game, they do not make the game an rpg.

Experiance is difficult to place, as it is the reward you get for doing a task, and allows you to manually configure the advancement of your character, which is something I consider a core feature in rpg's -- the ability to select the skill you wish to improve upon. Thus I consider experiance or leveling bars a needed system to support a core feature.

As per previous thread, I consider rpg's ( or at any rate, the backbone of rpg's ) is/are composed of 4 features. The choice of skills, the impact of chosen skills, the choice of action, the impact of chosen action.

Meaning: I choose to be proficient in Unarmed Combat. My choosing so allows me to participate in illegal boxing. At the finals, the crowd want's me to finish my opponent, but instead I let him live. I win the championships, but the town now looks down on me for being so mercyfull. The impact then being; some quests in that town become closed to me, while others open up. My reputation goes down in that town and up in the good parts of the world.

Then, if I have a good speech and CH, I could perhaps get my defeated opponent, now retired from boxing, to come with me, etc etc. This has the effect of making the world seem fully dynamic.

Allowing for paths ( Good, Neutral, Evil ) is a form of corruption of pure rpg's, as these moralic choices are far too blatant. As per the example above, choices must be equally balanced with gains and losses -- the people I chose to neglect by allowing the other boxer to live are in no way worse than those that consider it a valiant course of action. Greyzone v.s Paths is perhaps the most debatable subject, as often they appear to be the same thing. Paths however tend to limit choices in speech, as basic moral principles adhere only to the three categories above, while basic character personality fills a minimum of 6-8 categories. One could possibly argue that the amount of skills and skill choices requires a near equal amount of defining out-of-skill choices to keep the game from becoming mixed genré, meaning rpg/adventure.

[Jesus Christ]

OK now.

Agree or Disagree

If you disagree please state brief reason.

Gosh, let's get started.

- Setting, timeline, story, npc's, combat are not defining features for an rpg. Meaning that by being there in a game, they do not make the game an rpg.

Agree

Experiance is difficult to place, as it is the reward you get for doing a task, and allows you to manually configure the advancement of your character, which is something I consider a core feature in rpg's -- the ability to select the skill you wish to improve upon. Thus I consider experiance or leveling bars a needed system to support a core feature.

Agree

As per previous thread, I consider rpg's ( or at any rate, the backbone of rpg's ) is/are composed of 4 features. The choice of skills, the impact of chosen skills, the choice of action, the impact of chosen action.

Meaning: I choose to be proficient in Unarmed Combat. My choosing so allows me to participate in illegal boxing. At the finals, the crowd want's me to finish my opponent, but instead I let him live. I win the championships, but the town now looks down on me for being so mercyfull. The impact then being; some quests in that town become closed to me, while others open up. My reputation goes down in that town and up in the good parts of the world

Agree

I think we all agreed on this one already. Killing the innocent boxer would be a sin and should be looked down upon by all, but that’s just semantics.

Then, if I have a good speech and CH, I could perhaps get my defeated opponent, now retired from boxing, to come with me, etc etc.

This has the effect of making the world seem fully dynamic.

Now you're just rambling.

[Koki]

St. Toxic? Oh, sure, don't ask the guy who's an editor for the #1 rootinest tootinest coat-hanger abortinest RPG site...

Sorry, I just don't go to the Codex. It's not very user-friendly If you feel like it, write away, we can have few and spam The Escapist

I mean, this is a business about computer games. It's not about anyone's life or anything serious, after all.

And that's exactly why you're useless. Go away. Don't post in my thread again

Shall we get our facts sorted about what is and what isn't an rpg once and for all?

Oh?! Well time to dig that other thread. Oh wait, it looks like a bread thrown into a group of african children.

The two ideas which I think the cRPG is about is: 1) You are not your character; Your skills and your character skills should be completely separated 2) As big freedom for the player as possible.

Crap, don't tell me we will have to go through this all over again...

[Blargh]

You cannot win the heart of the glacier, nor can you conquer the mind of the moron.

They don't exist.

Futility in action ?

[VasikkA]

I believe Toxic said this a while ago and it still stands; reasoning is useless. Spamming goes unnoticed. I'm sure there is a vulnerable spot we just haven't noticed. Something so taboo it will make Bethsoft react. What is it? Perhaps approach gaming media instead of TES boards? The Stalker case was a fine example, although more of a satire in nature. Together with the Codex, NMA and Jack Thompson we will attain a spot in Valhalla. Think, children. Think.

Also, this is not the correct place for plotting.

[St. Toxic]

The Escapist is a good choice of media, so yeah. We're not talking about tes forums anymore VasikkA.

[VasikkA]

Oh, you're talking about that shitty magazine/blog.

[Koki]

The one you never read, yeah.


I just quickly browsed through the submission guidelines and I see no problems. The only thing one should know before writing is lenght of the article. Columns are 1000 - 1500 words.

Additionally, we don't even have to agree over the definition of cRPG, really. As long as you have clear distinction between games like Fallout and TES series, it doesn't really matter what the definition itself is.

Anyway - I know that St. Toxic has voiced interest, but what about "the guy who's an editor for the #1 rootinest tootinest coat-hanger abortinest RPG site"?

[Jesus Christ]

Or our illustrious commander who wrote system wars part 1?