How do you define an rpg?

[St. Toxic]

Well fine, sleeping to level up isn't the worst thing ever. Being forced to find a bed to pass some time however is stupendilous. Felt like they wanted to squeeze and extra hour into my gametime by making me run around looking for an inn or a bunk whenever I needed to hasten the daycycle or turn my gained speechcraft into a level.

In any case, I like leveling up on the go, and who the hell memorizes stuff in their sleep anyway? You're running around with a journal, noting everything in the fullest possible detail, but in the end you still have to "Hhnnghhh" and get it all into your head forever before you take a nap? Quite the bad idea.

So, since levels really are just a placeholder for experience points, could we say then that not so much levels but gaining experience is one key requisite of an RPG?

Sure. But as said, I'd rather see "Level 22." than "Total of 503200 experiance points." on my character screen. Or well, I'd rather see both actually, since there's some increase of experiance bars going on, in case you haven't noticed. Having two values ( current exp and next level exp ) obviously became to complicated for someone, so they turned it into a slider thingy to make everyone happy. Can't say I like it, makes it a bit hard to calculate when you're actually going to level up. Most often you're still shown the amount of experiance you've gained ( in numbers even ) but everything else is left for guesswork. How much does an inch of the bar represent? Beats me, anyway.

I'm really straying from the thread point here ( have been for quite some time ), but I'd like to hear your views on a cartography for Fallout. I can't really imagine a Fallout without a world map -- running through the desert for 2 weeks straight might be fun with an autorun button and too much spare time, but only if you get a major hardon from sand due to a bizzare brain injury you've befriended while you were young and wild. So, we got the world map, we got town maps, we got old, beaten up vaults and special encounters and so forth and so forth. Paper maps ( and with the right add-ins to your pipboy, electronical maps and odm+Xpoints ) could play an interesting part in a post apocalyptic wasteland -- help you navigate around better, allow you to sketch up ( more ) detailed descriptions of places depending on your Outdoorsman ( or a sub-skill, if such can be implented ) and basicly add a bit to realism, rp and barter.

I'm thinking, you just grab the proper gear ( pen & paper lowl ) and travel around, and things that once used to be black unknown become as clear as your PE and Outdoorsman.

Having low PE (low IN = tribal style map) and odm means you'll get pretty rough, undetailed sketches of towns and the world, and hardly notice anything special.

Still, most sophisticated barter stations would likely have a well laid supply of maps for you to pick from, thus have no fear -- just cough up some caps.

Lacking the proper mapmaking equipment, you'll get a hazy memory map that'll blank out after a few sets of the sun. So it becomes pretty much like the previously discussed food and water thing - just one of those things you'd better bring.

Commént?

[Koki]

Your avatar moves.


Also, I agree completely. The idea of having "fog of war" which you can either explore(And die from dehydration if your Outdoorsman is not high enough), or you have to find a map. I mean, nobody crosses mountains just like that. Traveling could be pretty fucking dangerous.

What do you guys think about having food/water levels like in Dungeon Master anyway?

Another idea: Traps skill was always useless, so maybe there could be a way to make it more. For example, istead of "KILL / DO NOT KILL" choice when encoutering somebody(thing?) on the desert they'd add "Ambush" option. Then the battle starts with one or two enemies already immobilized. With high Traps you could even cause a landslide/avalanche and then just search the bodies(In mountains). Caravan hunting!

[Redeye]

Fallout: Aftermath

[Koki]

403

[box]

Maybe Beth should use something like the orig FO 'overworld' map, and then implement some kind of 'go there manually' option for people who like to spend two weeks in the desert, fighting rockslides or cliff racers or whatever.

I dig the idea about the maps. Kind of like if you pick that one marginal character perk that lets you explore adjacent squares as you pass by them. Because, no matter what skill you're at in Oblivion you're always going to be discovering Village A and Fort B and always going to have them on your map for 'fast travel.' I definitely like the sound of detail increasing for people with higher outdoorsman. It also gives outdoorsman more of a 'point,' besides avoiding 2hp damage from rock slides or whatever. I also dig the whole 'ambush' option-- something more enitcing than simply showing up on the map to fight 'flock of floaters.'

When you had high outdoorsman, and you chose to fight a group of enemies, it didn't seem like your positioning was all that great. It never suited me, who likes to dart in and out of range with, say, a Bozar. I was always too close or to far away. If the game was still hex-based, which it probaly won't be [which sucks], having the option of choosing where you wanted to position yourself before an ambush, assuming all conditions were ideal or you rolled successfully or whatever, would suit me.

I say make fast travel truly fast tarvel, and a visual thing, like in FO, which wasn't quite so 'fast.' Vectors to where you're heading, and less than instantaneous arrival times. I don't want BGate style fast travel either, which just means random fights ['Your party has been waylaid!'] that annoy and don't reflect any outdoorsman skill.

Many more things should have been functions of your intelligence, yeah like the maps making process. Maybe a PipBoy upgrade or two througout the game that could increase your cartography. To be honest, I'd have liked to rely on things like the silt striders and the Mage's Guidl portals for fast travel a la Morrowind than just to simply click on where I'm headed. Brahmin Drives, hitching a ride with Ernest Borgnine-- Escape From NY, Trade Caravans, hiring Tribal Guides, random badasses that you meet in town, hell even some Slaving and Raiding party expeditions.

Random encounters like jumping onto a cattle drive? Here's a stupid and unlikely examle, but let's say you're a badass and you come across some Raiders. They know of your less-than-savory reputation, and you guys get to shooting the shit. Raiders say they're going to some pirate's cove to trade off some of their 'wares,' and you, the bad guy, can come along. But if you're a Ranger, they'd open fire at the very sight of ya.

Maybe two different 'kinds' of maps. Just as how in shit D&D, Intelligence reflects 'book learning' and Wisdom reflects a kind of intuition, maybe the tribals would be better at finding old Indian trails while the Pip Boy would be better at calculating likelihood of dehydration given cloud cover and sun sport intensity, I don't know. Science junk.

Perception versus Intelligence, all tied to Outdoorsman skill. Either path might lead you to the same goal, that is, being able to navigate the wastes and have the first move [fight or flight, your choice] in an encounter. Probably eliminating fast tarvel is essential, regardless. You can't have a huge, sprawling desert wasteland and have the wastes feel like wastes when they can be traversed as quickly as your RAM will load the next area.

[St. Toxic]

Well written en all, box. I did come to thinking how much the Beths love pointless, non essential places and things, and a gigantic post apoc wasteland is the perfect playground for adding a billion points of minor interest, as long as they don't cramp it up by making the whole world play out in first person. Evendoh Fallout had but a counter of time and date, and a week traveling wasn't more than 20 seconds of real time, the world felt immensly bigger than the one in Oblivion, because of ( at least ) two things. The emptyness and the deadline. In Ob, running about for ten minutes gave you basicly too much to process, and running about for ten years didn't change shit -- you're just in a box ( ohoh ) of things. Had they however emptied that box of things onto a travel map, adding, of course, a form of counter for time, a point to time being there, and spaced key locations out a bit, it'd likely pass for a huge world.

[box]

as long as they don't cramp it up...

Whatever happened to Daggerfall? Do you think its just because of all the ONDCP Shiny Vertex-Rimjobbed Grafix horseshit that Beth can't have truly humongous game maps anymore? But yeah, I'm thinking a game world like double the size of Oblvivion's for the same amount of stuff in Oblivion... maybe more like 4x?

My brother for one would be quite pissed if FO3 had the same amt. of quest shit as Oblivion, as he thought it way too little quest-wise. I agree, but realistically don't see them adding much more. Plus I jus wanted to get it over with, as did he, once we realized how the game was tailored to little tards with ADDHDHDHDD and Mommy Money. And if it means having a game map the same size as Oblivion's with the same amt. of stupid shit on it, it wouldn't work and regardless, fast travel must go.

That one thing is for certain: fast travel, as it stands, has got to go, go, go.

a point to time being there

Definitely. Time limits all the way! Geting rid of time limits makes things a whole hell of a lot less serious. Dicking around [like in the expansion wink wink] after the 'big bad main quest' is done is all fine and good, but having X days to find your water chip really puts the crunch on things, initially. It may not be having teh fr33dum, as they say, but you can have all the non-linear do-whatever-you-want shit freedom for after you solve the main quest.

I like FO1, after the patch: You still had X amount of days to complete Big Mission No.1 [Chip], but once you did that, the game opened up and you could do whatever for a year or two of game time before finishing Big Mission Nos. 2 and 3. More than enough to gain levels and all that. Being able to play after 'The End' would be great, guess, like going back and finishing up some shit in FO2. I like having a bit of crunch time at first, not too stifling, but a definite ticker, and then havng the game open up after.

This would also help cut down on all that ridiculous swell guy, like jumping up and down to gain acro skill and fleeing to rest for two days every time you get a scratch in battle.

If the desert is, well, deserted, then it should be easier on video cards, too, right? One would think that Beth would actually have an easier time with this. I mean, rock slides, wind effects, sand dunes and lens flare shit has got to be a bit lighter on your sys than all kinds of trees, grass, rain, sleet, hail, and super wavy water reflections. Distance can't be that hard when you're rendering, what? Sand? A few milk crates here and there, an old gas station every ten miles, maybe an old shack with a still, and other sparsely placed doohickies?

I fear that right now Beth is actually trying to improve Oblivion's engine for FO3. Like, not working on story, or a good character system, or goddamned DIALOGUE, but tinkering with their graphics engine so that it hogs more system juice than Oblivion and therefore looks like a new game. I hope that's not the case. It would be nice to hear exactly what they're doing over there, but I guess we'll see soon enough, yeah?

[Redeye]

Infinite freedom is meaningless.

Light a candle, cast a shadow.

Something must be there to produce a silouette.


Freedom relative to something.

Also "freedom from" vs. "freedom to"... a concept to be explored.

We gauge our success againt baselines/etc.

Having the world change though direct actions is good, adding timed changes that happen if you didn't do things - especially things you didn't know you were supposed to do- would make it even better.

An evolving jigsaw puzzle of events.

That would make for a sense of time and place and meaning.

[VasikkA]

Paper maps ( and with the right add-ins to your pipboy, electronical maps and odm+Xpoints ) could play an interesting part in a post apocalyptic wasteland -- help you navigate around better, allow you to sketch up ( more ) detailed descriptions of places depending on your Outdoorsman ( or a sub-skill, if such can be implented ) and basicly add a bit to realism, rp and barter.

Nice thoughts there on further developing the cartography system in Fallout. The Outdoorsman skill in Fallout was rather vague and it could have a function in mapping the surrounding areas together with Perception. I also liked that you mentioned the possibility to purchase maps for the bartering/negotiator types. It's little things like these that add depth to the gameplay.

I'm thinking, you just grab the proper gear ( pen & paper lowl ) and travel around, and things that once used to be black unknown become as clear as your PE and Outdoorsman.

I think the important phrase here is 'black unknown'. The black shroud in Fallout fit the story; you were sent off to explore the big bad world not knowing what to expect. It also gave a sense of freedom because all you saw was emptyness and perhaps a distant green orb with no description. "Where would I like to go next? Towards the green orb or into the darkness?" A fully detailed map with GPS navigator à la Oblivion would suck.

The 'old tech' green and black town maps in Pipboy2000 are spot on.

What do you guys think about having food/water levels like in Dungeon Master anyway?

I would hate it. I don't understand games where you have to babysit your character to eat, sleep, shit and breathe regularly. To me it's more of a nuisance or, in some cases, an annoyance. Fuck realism if it doesn't add anything of value to the gaming experience. Your imagination can fill the gaps.

Another idea: Traps skill was always useless, so maybe there could be a way to make it more. For example, istead of "KILL / DO NOT KILL" choice when encoutering somebody(thing?) on the desert they'd add "Ambush" option. Then the battle starts with one or two enemies already immobilized. With high Traps you could even cause a landslide/avalanche and then just search the bodies(In mountains).

What do you mean by 'immobilized'? Doesn't the Sequence stat and surprise turn already give you an advantage when combat initiates? Traps skill is fine in disarming traps and in certain combat situations(i.e. not in the average gunfight); I'd like a similar use of traps like in Silent Storm. Traps skill could also be of use in some quests and when breaking into houses/safes(i.e. with explosives).

Maybe Beth should use something like the orig FO 'overworld' map, and then implement some kind of 'go there manually' option for people who like to spend two weeks in the desert, fighting rockslides or cliff racers or whatever.

I'm suddenly thinking of the travel system in Arcanum. Isn't it some sort of a hybrid between the system used in Fallout and in Oblivion? You can walk between locations(although no one ever did that, because the landscape is generic forest) in isometric view but you can also travel via the world map. Instant travel is not available, unless you count trains and ship routes. There's even many hidden special locations; some are script-triggered and some can be found by pure luck or extensive traveling.

If the game was still hex-based, which it probaly won't be [which sucks]

FOT, X-com, JA2 and Silent Storm are tile-based, so I guess that would be acceptable.

Perception versus Intelligence, all tied to Outdoorsman skill.

Logically, Intelligence would have an effect on a lot of skills, but I'd rather see it toned down and limited for the sake of balance.


And how about splitting this thread and sending it to the proper forum(FO3)?

[Redeye]

The 'old tech' green and black town maps in Pipboy2000 are spot on.

yup

What do you guys think about having food/water levels like in Dungeon Master anyway?

I would hate it. I don't understand games where you have to babysit your character to eat, sleep, shit and breathe regularly. To me it's more of a nuisance or, in some cases, an annoyance. Fuck realism if it doesn't add anything of value to the gaming experience. Your imagination can fill the gaps.

Why not have it be optional?

I'm suddenly thinking of the travel system in Arcanum. Isn't it some sort of a hybrid between the system used in Fallout and in Oblivion? You can walk between locations(although no one ever did that, because the landscape is generic forest) in isometric view but you can also travel via the world map. Instant travel is not available, unless you count trains and ship routes. There's even many hidden special locations; some are script-triggered and some can be found by pure luck or extensive traveling.

I liked being able to just pick points on the world map and have my character go there, revealing nearby things along the way.

I also did try walking places the slow way. It was kind of boring.

Damn, now I have to reinstall Arcanum to check some things.

[Koki]

I would hate it. I don't understand games where you have to babysit your character to eat, sleep, shit and breathe regularly. To me it's more of a nuisance or, in some cases, an annoyance. Fuck realism if it doesn't add anything of value to the gaming experience. Your imagination can fill the gaps.

Duh? How the fuck "It doesn't add anything"? You have to buy food, or if you have stats try to hunt it yourself. You can die one the desert or luck out and kill a gang with some munchies. And so on.

What do you mean by 'immobilized'?

Dead. Or unconcious. Same thing.