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I don't think so. I remotely remember enjoying Hexen (when I played it a good ~10 years ago, or so). I hated Oblivion.goatunit wrote:You guys talk about Oblivion like it was fucking Hexen or Eye of the Beholder.
I'd been thinking about that, too. I say let's just not reply to every SDF who drops by and thinks it's cool to say how he thinks Fo3 won't suck. They don't have any idea how much this stuff has been discussed here. Mods should just delete all new threads like that. Let the SDF do their reading and then relate to the existing threads discussing the issue they want to address. If they can't, well, watch out for the door, 'cos you're be going out extra-fast.atoga wrote:christ, this forum is getting old hat. vague threads about how bethsoft is horrible, with equally vague threads arguing that things could be a lot worse. how enlightening. can we just delete the fallout 3 forum already?
You started off as an honest poster, with enough p'ss and vinegar to stand tall.I'm a fan of Bethesda. ...
Man, you guys take shit too seriously ...
Focus here: goatunit, (total badass) :... I mean, look. I'm a socialist. I'll be the first to agree that these game companies are out to make a quick buck. What's fucked up is that you guys think Black Isle wasn't. ...
... What's fucked up is that you guys think Black Isle wasn't. ...
I'm not saying that you should .... Do what you want. ....
... A bunch of fucking spoiled white boys ... You are the ones with the absolute opinion. ...
I forgot Eldar Scroll fans composed a significant portion of the world population. How silly of me, guess I better inform the CIA to update their world facts book.goatunit wrote:Fans of Fallout make up a microscopic portion of the world's population, you know?
This is strange, as I SWEAR there were a number of great authors, poets, etc who while not succesful at the time, are now considered geniuses. Just because the lowest common denominator is out there, doesn't mean that as an artist you have to lower yourself to it.1) The audience plays as much a role in any medium of art as the creator. That isn't to say that an artist can't do a poor job, but you have to meet him half way.
Except Jesus. Sorta.2) No one here is God
and as such we are all ill equipped to make objective judgements on subjective experiences. Liking Oblivion, even if it does suck, does not make one an idiot or a sheep.
Says the guy who willingly looked up a Fallout forum to beat the drum for Fallout 3 going "HEY GUYZ, LOOK DIS MIGHT NOT BE AS BAD AS IT SEEMS, I <3 BETHESOFT."You guys are lame. Seriously.
Ding ding ding! Winnar!!! Welcome to a realization that many of us have made - Your posts are useless and they're not gonna change any minds. Even if your best intention was to "Enlighten us" or whatever the fuck you wanna call it, it's still useless cause I'm pretty certain that people have made up their minds and unless you have some sort of new information (IE: You're Pete Hines in disguise, you villian, you!) it's futile, asanine, and stupid.I'm arguing about a fucking video game.
1. Black Isle didn't make Fallout.goatunit wrote:isomorphic
That wasn't my point, though, which was meant to draw a broader context recognising first-person view as fairly oldhat and thus negating that tired old argument that Fallout fans are "scared of innovation" or "fail to recognise the cRPG scene is different now" or whatever.Subhuman wrote:Bethesda isn't switching from first-person, because the Fallout series has never utilized first-person. And goatunit said he isn't preaching for an FP fallout, thus he can't be "scared" FO3 might be isometric.
Ozrat wrote:I haven't been so oppressed since prom in 9th grade.
so what are you saying? if fallout 3 turns out to be oblivion with guns (a pervasive notion around here), then it will be certainly lacking in the 'things critical to fallout' department that i mentioned earlier. i'd love it if technical & story envelopes were pushed, but what's critical is that it needs to remain an RPG.goatunit wrote:I'm not saying that you should feel at all compelled to buy it just because it says Fallout. That is an absurd interpretation of what I've said.
i don't think anyone here has seriously argued otherwise?goatunit wrote:And if you think there can't be a good FP-view game, you're an idiot.
granted, nobody cares about what goes on in this forum, devs especially, but i don't see how arguing about a video game entitles you to make a shitty, convoluted argument? jeez louise.goatunit wrote:Of course there are fallacies and inconsistencies in my argument. I'm arguing about a fucking video game.
WATCH OUT, HE'S TEENAGE, HE HAS SPIKY RED HAIR AND A WOODEN SWORDgoatunit wrote:I'm a fan of Bethesda. If I like any game more than Morrowind, it would have to be either Medieval Total War 2 or Chrono Trigger
FPP = player skill and character skill interjection. No way around it.goatunit wrote:But you guys seem to have this fucked up opinion that by adding a first person view Fallout to the series, they are somehow subtracting an isomorphic view game.
Of course, you won't understand. Or agree. Or you will understand and agree, but you will continue your crusade anyway.Roqua wrote:So now we get to playing a role in an rpg. RPGs have different standard since they were created to fulfill a different mission. A wheelchair bound lady with no legs and only one arm could play the role of the bride in Kill Bill. And in a book or movie the story is the same no matter how many times you watch or read it. If Kill Bill was an rpg the setting and the events leading up to the start of the campaign would be the same, but the story could go any way the player decided. Maybe the bride makes friends with the nurse guy that took money selling her out when she was in a coma, and he is her sidekick. Or maybe she doesn’t kill the black lady with the child (that was one of her partners under Bill) but teams up with her to take down Bill. The actions of the bride would be dictated by what the person playing her role feels her character would do. This makes the rpg genre different from any other form of roleplaying besides real life actors free styling and ad libing it I guess.
But that’s a different argument. The important thing is that when you play a role in an rpg, the physical abilities you posses are unimportant. You don’t have to have good timeing. You don’t have to be fast or have good reflexes. Because when you assume the role of the character you are playing that doesn’t matter at all. The character you play is the master swordsman and he knows how to time the attack. His strength, agility, and reflexes are what matters, not yours.
Relying on the person playing the character’s physical abilities is possible in pen and paper rpgs also. You could shoot an elastic (rubber-band) at a can to see if your character hits a target with his bow. You could move the can closer as he progresses in skill, and you could upgrade to elastic to a slingshot then a wrist-rocket and then a bb-gun to account for weapon upgrades. For melee you could bust out rock’em sock’em robots to decide who wins. Or have someone try and hot a cat with a empty towel roll to see if he hits his enemy. Any number of fun an action packed exciting activities that rely on the players physical abilities.
But this isn’t done, even though it is 100% possible, because it wouldn’t be roleplaying. In every single pen and paper rpg the physical abilities of the player are not used. Because the ability of the character you play are independent of your own. When you assume the role of a character you become him. You try and think like him, and you make decisions as he you believe he would. You provide direction, and the rules of the game, the characters skill and attributes, and those of other characters in the game do the rest.
Roleplaying in an rpg will always rely on mental input. It cannot be separated or removed. Physical reliance and mental reliance are two different things. Roleplying in an rpg was always meant to be a mental activity, not a physical one. Because the character’s physical abilities are 100% independent of yours.
Everyone is saying that a fps is an fps, or an action game is an action game, if there is no reliance on the character’s abilities, and it becomes an rpg when the character’s abilities influences combat or other activities. I am saying that if there is any reliance on player ability (through twitch skills such as timing, reflexes, etc) the game cannot be an rpg. An rpg, crpg or pen and paper, does not rely on the players physical abilities at all. An action game with rpg elements can, but it is not an action-rpg�it is an action game with rpg elements.
In a splinter cell game Sam Fisher has the ability to be a master assassin (or whatever he is) but unless he and I work together as a dynamic team relying on each others abilities and knowing our limits, he is not a master assassin. He is as good physically as I am. My physical input dictates how well he performs and his master assassin status.
In a crpg this is not true. For instance, in the game Buck Rogers, Buck Rogers joins your party for a little while, and he is badass no matter what your physical abilities are. He truly is a master independent of your input. The same with your party, when they become masters of their class, they are masters. My physical skill does not impact this in any way, shape, or form. When I assume the role of a character I truly become them. In an action game with rpg elements when you assume the role of a character you become each other. So in an action game with rpg elements you are the role as you play the role, discounting the game from being an rpg. I wish I could find the right way to explain this but logically it cannot be an rpg because it breaks the law of non-contradiction. It’s like saying I was running around flying. If you are running you aren’t flying and if you are flying you aren’t running. My character isn’t a master swordsman if his master swordsman skills are reliant on my physical abilities.
Why the fuck should I fix Bethsoft's design errors? Oh, and the MODdlers will probably be preoccupied with adding stuff like leather thongs and bouncy breasts into the game than writing decent dialogue and quests.igrim wrote:you know what, guys ? i think that bethsoft should make fallout 3 as good as they can make it and add all the material for modding (source code all that stuff) so all we who have gathered here can just MODify the damn oblivion clone or whatnot it may be/become and play fallout as we please.
Thats what I had in mindMicmu wrote:By that logic, they should include a C++ compiler and everybody will be even happier.
Well what you add is the concern of you as a modder. Hell. I've just been aquainted with too many threads complaining about needing the source code for fallout 2 to do something decent with the game. until now most of the 'total conversions' have fucked up or been scrapped because of the effort needed to get a decent mod. I like to believe that a game would need a modding support to make it 'more replayable'. I know it's totally against the capitalist viewpoints of teh gaming business, but - hey! - I'm into games because their fun. Flaming aint fun. and most of the Fallout 3 discussion forums is about flaming one another.VasikkA wrote:igrim wrote:
you know what, guys ? i think that bethsoft should make fallout 3 as good as they can make it and add all the material for modding (source code all that stuff) so all we who have gathered here can just MODify the damn oblivion clone or whatnot it may be/become and play fallout as we please.
Why the fuck should I fix Bethsoft's design errors? Oh, and the MODdlers will probably be preoccupied with adding stuff like leather thongs and bouncy breasts into the game than writing decent dialogue and quests.
until the fallout comes out whatever it may be like - only to have a great gaming experience and something in addition to the oled canon. how about a new type of power armour ? the same old bottlecaps ! 
I wanna shoot some jet and go fuck a bitch and then shoot her dead. Then i wanna have a decent brawl with a deathclaw. When I get real bored I play through the game in an hour. Hell. I wanna do all that and more ! And the Fallout Universe is the only place where stuff like that is pretty much OK 
